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Lassies of Lallybroch in the Caribbean - The Outlander Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahoy

927 replies

MoNigheanDonn · 28/11/2017 07:51

New thread lassies for all things Jamie and Claire (and all things in between).

Only two episodes left! Hope everyone enjoyed episode 11.

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LittleDorritt · 29/11/2017 21:25

How bloody gorgeous was Sam in this episode??
I loved it, although the wander through the jungle did go on a bit. The wedding was everything I wanted it to be. Loving Fersali.
I'm also totally taken with Mr Willoughby which I didn't expect in a million years. They've done a fantastic job there with some truly disgraceful source material. His apology to Father Fogden was terrific, and I loved his little chuckle in the final scene. I'm going to be gutted by his fate in the last episode.

LittleDorritt · 29/11/2017 21:27

So it's the ball next week. Hello Lord John!

Marsali · 29/11/2017 21:31

YY. I was dreading Mr Willoughby. I loved the apology too- Claire and Jamie looking on like disgruntled/ encouraging parents Grin I rather hope the ball doesn't end the way it does in the books now Confused

AKAmyself · 29/11/2017 21:39

I was rewatching the wedding scene (because the Fersali obsession is real!) and I just had a minor epiphany!

It always bugged me how Jamie takes so long to formally adopt Fergus. Then I realised he couldn’t have given him his name in Scotland! He was a traitor, then a fugitive, a prisoner and couldn’t even go by his own name himself. But now he’s finally free to be a proud Fraser again and what a joy it must be for him to bestow his family name on his adopted son.

LittleDorritt · 29/11/2017 21:43

I properly sobbed when Jamie gave him his name.

BreakfastAtSquiffanys · 29/11/2017 21:47

I've decided that I like Drunk Claire the best.
Sober Claire is ok, but when she's Doctor Claire she's a prig

Whisky2014 · 29/11/2017 21:53

I'm sorry to say me and my partner have found this whole season to be pretty boring :( two episodes on the ship with not much going on then the island episode where again...not much happened.

I'll stick with it though

LittleDorritt · 29/11/2017 21:53

Drunk Claire is awesome. It's a toss up between know-it-all Doctor Claire and bore-me-to tears Boston Claire as to which is the most awful.

CourtneyLoveIsMySpiritAnimal · 29/11/2017 21:58

Then I realised he couldn’t have given him his name in Scotland! He was a traitor, then a fugitive, a prisoner and couldn’t even go by his own name himself. But now he’s finally free to be a proud Fraser again and what a joy it must be for him to bestow his family name on his adopted son

Yeah, but at this point of the story, they aren't meaning to emigrate are they? Confused Surely to all intents and purposes, once they've found Ian they'll be going home (I know that's not what happens, but they don't know that, do they?)

And really, Jamie should have given Fergus his name when he got his hand chopped off. He's (Jamie) been a bit of a twat in that respect.

CourtneyLoveIsMySpiritAnimal · 29/11/2017 22:02

I'm sorry to say me and my partner have found this whole season to be pretty boring

Can't please everyone Wink However, I do think this series will benefit from being able to watch it all in one go. If I'd have had to watch S1 weekly, I would've given up after the first episode. I mean, that series had whole episodes with barely any Jamie in them or worse, no Jamie at all Shock

Whisky2014 · 29/11/2017 22:04

I loved season 1!

Lessstressedhemum · 29/11/2017 23:01

No, they weren't planning on going back to Scotland when they found Ian in the book. At least not for the foreseeable future. it was too dangerous for Jamie and he says that he won't see Scotland again as they are sailing away to begin with. I think the plan was for them to send young Ian home to Scotland on his own and, in fact, Jamie tries to do that at the beginning of DoA. All sorts of places were to dangerous for Jamie, given how much of the world was controlled by either England or France.

Giving Fergus his name is another step in reclaiming his life. He couldn't make him a Fraser in Scotland because he was wanted all the time, just like he couldn't go by his own name. It would have put wee Fergus in danger if he had been known to be Jamie's son.

AKAmyself · 30/11/2017 05:35

Exactly, Less. Compare and contrast with the scene where Fergus loses his hand, and Jamie can do literally nothing for him, not even properly care for him as he's hiding in a cave. And compare and contrast with him giving Willie his stinking papist name, again in secret.

Speaking of wee Ian, I believe his name has not been mentioned once since they set up to find him! They must have all forgotten why they're there!

quirkychick · 30/11/2017 07:33

With the name thing, in the book, isn't Jamie still under the name Alexander Malcolm, I'm sure Claire goes to the Porpoise as Mistress Malcolm. There is some very complicated things with Jamie's name in Edinburgh, which I can't fully remember with him having different names for printing, smuggling etc. the show has massively simplified it (as with lots of things).

Jamie can't go back to Scotland because of the charges of murder and sedition, hence all the issue of being caught in Jamaica, I can't remember why it's ok for him to be Fraser again in the Americas, though. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me.

LonelyOversharer · 30/11/2017 09:19

Do we think DG gets off on us all (everyone, the crazies etc, not just us, doubt she reads mn!) picking apart her rather sloppy work, making her plots to be far cleverer than the happy coincidences that I think they might be?

Or do you think it fuels her self importance, after all, what we all surmise is what she meant, really! She just didn't write those bits down. She wrote down lots and lots of other waffle, clouts, gatherings, unintelligible bits of the war of independence, but not the clever linking together, that we have to do for ourselves.

I think I enjoy the show more for reading this thread. I see bits I wouldn't have done by myself. I want to keep going with the books, but for time input vs reward I can't justify it just now.

AKAmyself · 30/11/2017 10:49

I think that’s quite normal, lonely, that readers fill in the blanks. I think it’s adtually a mark of a good writer that she doesn’t have to tell everything.

IMO DG’s shortcomings is not in what she doesn’t say but in the fact she says too much and gets lost in her own plotting. What she’s good at - relationships, historical research, the well observed minutiae is daily life, her beautiful descriptions of nature- gets lost in a sea of repetitive and lazy plotting (how can we spice this up?!? Oh I know! we’ve have no one raped in over 300 pages!)

Lessstressedhemum · 30/11/2017 11:06

Oh, I think she loves it when we find all the connections and when it makes her look like a much better writer than she actually is. She can pretend that she meant all the clever stuff and it's not just all of us filling in her massive plot holes.

Jamie and Claire are going by Fraser on the Artemis, but when the Porpoise comes along he thinks that it will be safer if they are Malcolm. Jamie Fraser is much too recognisable a name for the English, especially coupled with his height and red hair. In Edinburgh, he was Malcolm for printing, Jamie Ruaidh for smuggling and only Fraser at home. he was trying so hard to keep all the strands of his life separate and to keep everyone safe from the repercussions of his activities.

He took back his name in Georgia because he felt that it was safe to do so. The English military presence had been, I think, scaled back in America by that time, obviously before the revolution kicked off. No-one from Edinburgh was likely to be around to recognise him and loads of Scots turned up in the states all the time. There was, in the book, talk of them settling on Eleutheria or another caribbean island not under English control but, even then, he might not have been able to go by his real name.

Fergus's naming ties in with the whole idea o identity which suffuses the book. Jamie is able to finally give Fergus his name, openly and safely, among friends, confirming his own identity and Fergus's. Unlike when he claimed Willie in secrecy because of the danger to himself and the effect that would have had on the child. Tears tae a gless e'e.

Lessstressedhemum · 30/11/2017 11:10

Would agree with that, AKA. She is very good at writing relationships and would have been brilliant at those horrible descriptive essays I had to write at school about a raindrop on a red rose. But she is a lazy plotter and freely admits to having lost track of a lot of her own canon.

I just wish her editors would stand up to her a bit more and that she would lose the "pompous voice-overs."

AKAmyself · 30/11/2017 11:21

I think the identity/naming thing is definitely intentional though and v beautifully done, as is the recurring theme of Jamie not being able to claim his own children as his own, which is a huge part of his character and his drive to lead and protect men in other settings (aardsmuir, the ridge, the ships etc).

Remember as well that in those days blood counted for a lot, especially for a laird. So much as he had loved Fergus and much as he knows he owes a lot to him, there would have been a mental barrier there to claim in a brothel-born street urchin for his own. That too he can leave behind once he leaves Scotland.

So this whole voyage, absurd as it is at times, is absolutely necessary for Claire and Jamie and their families to clean the slate and start afresh - and to build new identities and bonds

Lessstressedhemum · 30/11/2017 11:37

Absolutely, AKA. That is one aspect of the story that DG has handled very, very well. She is very good at relationships. And Jamie has such a strong drive to be a protector and provider because he is a father, a husband and Laird and he feels that he hasn't been able to be any of those things in the way that he should. |His is a massively complex character, really and she has drawn him wonderfully well.

Once they get to the Colonies, they can all have a new start with a new dynamic where they can all flourish and leave their pasts behind. I'm already looking forward to season 4, just not the Brianna and Roger sex.

MoNigheanDonn · 30/11/2017 11:45

Loved all of your theories!

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AKAmyself · 30/11/2017 11:52

Or Brianna breastfeeding non-stop. Or the whole horrible thing that happens to poor roger. Or anything to do with Jocasta.

Other than that, I love DoA ;)

quirkychick · 30/11/2017 11:54

Thanks, Less, I knew someone would know about Jamie's names in Edinburgh, I just couldn't remember why they couldn't be Fraser in Jamaica, but it was ok in Georgia. I remember Jamie won't give his name until he knows where they've landed when they are spoilers washed up in Georgia.

The whole name/identity thing has really started in Season 1, Claire introduces herself to the highlanders as Claire Beauchamp, her maiden name, rather than Randall, Jamie is introduced as Jamie McTavish because he has a price on his head. She only finds out his real name just before the wedding.

I feel so sorry for Jamie being denied looking after his children. He is such a father figure in the books. I suppose, the whole not being able to be who he was supposed to be, a Scottish Laird, is representative of what would have happened to many after Culloden.

Lessstressedhemum · 30/11/2017 12:19

I think so. Whole swathes of the country were stripped of their identity, really, after the Rising, but also for generations before, tbh. For centuries, the English were an invading force and, remember, that the Acts of Union would still be a fresh memory at the time of Jamie's youth and resentment of the English was high.

AKAmyself · 30/11/2017 12:41

In other news, Jamie wears a wig in the next episode :)

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