Three Girls (BBC 9pm)

[ASauvingnonADay]

Looking forward to watching this tonight. Feel it might be one to watch with your teenagers..

Some people are trying to suggest the failures in supporting these girls had something to do with the perpetrators' race. However this has been categorically denied by Sara Rowbotham who is in the best position to tell us exactly what happened or didn't happen!

Sara Rowbotham testified to the Home Affairs Select Committee that it was the attitude towards the girls' class / social status that was the problem, not the race of the perpetrators. People who try to argue otherwise (contrary to the facts) should stop getting their opinions from the Daily Mail (or EDL website, as the case may be).

Having said that I can understand why the incompetent individuals who failed the girls might try to deflect blame to some outside factor when all their mistakes were being scrutinized. After all, they were being investigated by their respective employers and potentially faced disciplinaries or dismissal. Very easy in this scenario to pass the buck by claiming you were just following orders and / or had misunderstood what your manager had told you.

Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so

Issues of ethnicity related to child sexual exploitation have been discussed in other reports, including the Home Affairs Select Committee report, and the report of the Children’s Commissioner. Within the Council, we found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE. In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to 'downplay' the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as 'racist'.

The above extract (in bold) was posted by WoodPigeon earlier in this thread.

To me, it just reeks of blame shifting incompetence. It's also a huge disservice to the likes of Sara Rowbotham when people ignore what she has said in favour of excuses wheeled out by people who should have been sacked.

ShootingStar

Did Sara Rowbotham work at Rotherham during the child sexual exploitation scandal there too?

The section you c&p'd is from the Casey Report into Rotherham.

Perhaps the people who were at Rotherham at the time, and Casey who spent months compiling this report, know more about what was going on than someone who wasn't there.

Tbh honest I am actually feeling quite sick that some people are trying to use the rightful praise and recognition of Sara Rowbotham's perseverence for the girls in Rochdale as a tactic to try to shut down discussion of the actual issues affecting dealing with these gangs which, as we know, are still operating.

However this has been categorically denied by Sara Rowbotham who is in the best position to tell us exactly what happened or didn't happen!

I don't know if you have ever worked in a large public organisation or local government ShootingStar. No one person, however dedicated and brave they are, will have knowledge of how and why decisions are taken at different levels of the organisation. Also, it was not just people at Rochdale Borough Council. Problems occurred in the response from the police and the CPS. Sara R was speaking about what she saw from her perspective but to suggest that one social worker would be able to fully know what went on at all levels and in all organisations is just not credible.

Of course the various authorities were criminally negligent is the way they treated the victims and let this abuse go unpunished for years, but I don't know how anyone can argue that the actual perpetrators weren't to blame!?
As has been evidenced, this was and is going on in many towns, and this particular type of group rape and abuse of young girls, to make money, is being planned and committed by men from a culture / heritage where forced child marriage happens, where women are subjugated, where 'honour' killings are rife, and where all women, and maybe especially, white women, are seen as lower class citizens, whose will is unimportant. That is a particular culture.
It needs to be addressed; just as rape culture in US universities needs to be addressed, and abuse by Catholic priests and nuns is being addressed. Whether that should be led by the many strong women, or enlightened men, who have been brought up in that culture, or by the SS or police, or education system, I don't know, but asking a few Imans is not going to change anything. They're probably the worst people to ask for support.

Sorry, Imams! I didn't think they'd be asking David Bowie's lovely wife to sort this out!

This programme shocked me and my friends that watched it to the core just plain awful what's happened and all the other areas too...disgusting acts against another human being...completely disgusting some has highlighted Amber's address! As people have said the poor girl has gone through enough!!

Charley50 David Bowie's wife is called Iman!! As far as I'm aware she is of African descent not Asian.

Sparkly I know! I was referring to my previous post where I mispelled Imam; Iman! And was referring to her name not her heritage! It was meant to be lighthearted.

I found it really uncomfortable to watch.

Aged 14/15 me and a friend used to hang about a take away shop chatting with the men who ran it.

A few months later one of the men used to stalk us , to the point a woman pulled over in her car and drove us to safety as she could see he was following us.

He also tried to kiss me once.

It was all very scary but that's as far as it went. I can now see hoe easy it could of been to fall into that trap.

In hindsight I realise I should have reported the bastard, I'm just so glad it went no further.

Charley50 apologies...for some reason I missed your previous post! I can see it now.

wood the EDL is not going to provide any links to cases where perpetrators were white British. So yes, each of the cases listed goes to a local newspaper/ BBC report, and we can have confidence it happened. But you have no idea whether there are just as many (or more) reports in local papers / BBC etc where the perpetrators were white.

So the number of cases you point to where race is an issue is meaningless, unless you do an extensive search to discover whether there are similar cases reported that are not on the EDL list.

For example, if I want to "prove" that Labrador dogs are more dangerous than pit bulls, I could compile a list of all the reported attacks of Labradors on children. This would "prove" they were dangerous. But if I compiled a list of all dog attacks on children whatever their breed, it may show that pit bulls attack children ten times as often as Labradors.

(or it may not, don't want to get into a discussion about Labradors/ pit bulls! But if you only list the crimes committed by one section of the population, you can easily make it appear that they are pre-disposed to that crime)

Joannegrady90 It made very uncomfortable watching for me too I phoned a friend of mine and asked if she'd watched it! She said I was just about to call you "do you remember the chippy we used to hang out in and get free chips/scraps if we flirted with the owner?" We were 15 at the time and it was the 90s...he used to tell my friend she was gorgeous, beautiful and he'd do anything for a kiss and a cuddle he was at least in his 30s...at the time we just found it funny and were like yeah right you're old...he would just laugh it off but his comments got more and more forceful over time and one time invited my friend to come back after he'd closed...we just giggled and went back to school...he always made it seem playful and laugh it off we never thought to go to the police...We actually fancied someone in 6th form like the rest of the girls in our year! Looking at it now even though he didn't actually do anything made us feel like eugh I wonder how many other girls he said that too and maybe actually did do something with? He moved on and someone else took over the chippy...school never really taught us about being wary...and I certainly didn't have parents to go to about that sort of thing...I know things have changed a lot and the majority of parents are more open about the dangers of grooming and schools are getting better about educating young people to be more aware about what's appropriate etc but wondering what more can be done? I definitely think the programme should be shown in schools to Y9 and above!

Allington I agree with your logic there but I don't believe the EDL website list has been presented on this thread as other than a list of Asian grooming gang convictions and cases. I certainly haven't claimed that there aren't non-Asian gangs.

If someone draws up a list of Catholic priests convicted for child sexual abuse, that doesn't mean they are denying that ministers of other religions abuse children, does it?

I have asked several times on this thread whether anyone knows of an acceptable source for information on grooming gangs (which would presumably include all cases, Asian or not) but no-one has suggested one.

The Wikipedia entry on the Rochdale scandal has some relevant information and quotes:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_child_sex_abuse_ring

WoodPigeon

Did Sara Rowbotham work at Rotherham during the child sexual exploitation scandal there too?

You're the one who posted that information and tried to use it in an argument about the Rochdale case.

No one person, however dedicated and brave they are, will have knowledge of how and why decisions are taken at different levels of the organisation. Also, it was not just people at Rochdale Borough Council. Problems occurred in the response from the police and the CPS. Sara R was speaking about what she saw from her perspective but to suggest that one social worker would be able to fully know what went on at all levels and in all organisations is just not credible.

What's not credible is that these junior workers alleged they were prevented from doing their job because of the perpetrators' race. That is just ridiculous! It doesn't even make sense. In fact they don't even seem to go as far as suggesting it was the factor that prevented them from doing their jobs properly. It's just thrown in there like a smokescreen.

Look at it this way. There's zero explanation for why it was necessary for these junior workers to even mention race in order to investigate and do their jobs competently.

In Operation Yew Tree, did anyone feel the need to say, the celebrities abusing children are white? No, because the race of these people is not relevant.

After the examples of Fred & Rosemary West, and Ian Brady & Moira Hindley, did anyone feel the need to say there's a particular problem with white couples luring and murdering children?

Did anyone try to argue that it was the race of the white priests who abused children that was the important factor? Again, no. Catholic priests just happen to be predominantly white, but their race did not genetically predispose the priests to becoming paedophiles.

Charley50

but I don't know how anyone can argue that the actual perpetrators weren't to blame!?

Absolutely nobody is saying that. However, some people here seem want to focus on the race of the perpetrators rather than the perpetrators themselves (as individuals).

From the Wiki page:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_child_sex_abuse_ring

nb It's a Wiki page. I have not done extensive research to see if these reports referred to and quotes given are true or fakes. If you aren't convinced they are, you can check them out to satisfy yourself whether they are or not.

About a dozen more cases involving Asian Muslims in Northern England were investigated.[24] A report by the deputy children's commissioner in 2012 said that 90% of child sex abuse by gangs in Britain was committed by British Asian, where Asians are 7% of the population, but concluded that it was "irresponsible" to dwell on the data.[25]

A report compiled by The Times on 5 January 2011, related to convictions for child sex grooming in the North and Midlands. Of the 56 offenders convicted since 1997 for crimes relating to on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16, three were white, 53 were Asian of which 50 were Muslim, and most were from the British Pakistani community.[21] Furthermore, The Times article alleged: "with the exception of one town there is scant evidence of work being undertaken in British Pakistani communities to confront the problem" of "pimping gangs" largely consisting of "members of the British Pakistani community".[21]

The former head of Barnardo's, Martin Narey, said on BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "For this particular type of crime, the street grooming of teenage girls in northern towns … there is very troubling evidence that Asians are overwhelmingly represented in the prosecutions for such offences."[33]

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused elders of the Pakistani community of "burying their heads in the sand" on the matter of sexual grooming. He said that of convictions involving child sexual exploitation, 87% were of British Pakistani men and it was a significant problem for that community. He said the actions of criminals who thought "white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused" were "bringing shame on our community."[3]

The Wikipedia entry on the Rochdale scandal has some relevant information and quotes

Wikipedia should always be treated with caution. It's not a reliable source of information, given that anyone with internet access can contribute to it and edit it. I skimmed the page that was posted and one of the quotes about race did catch my eye. It had a citation so I scrolled down to find the source of information...

Unsurprisingly it was a quote by an EDL member taken from a BBC documentary about the EDL.

WoodPigeon

You could do exactly the same thing with catholic priests or Operation Yew Tree. The media had the opportunity to write articles on how all the perpetrators in these cases were white, and if they had done so, it would doubtless result in wikipedia entries using those articles as citations.

And was Richard North of the Times lying Shooting? Was the Casey report lying? Is Mohammed Shafiq a member of the EDL? What about the former head of Barnardo's, Martin Narey, nazi sympathiser?

I assume you have now read the report by the deputy children's commissioner in 2012 in the Wiki article saying that 90% of child sex abuse by gangs in Britain was committed by British Asian? Is it a forgery or based on false facts?

Just keep saying "EDL, EDL, EDL" is not a substitute for an argument or evidence.

Okay, so now we are getting into exactly the same circle we did with the EDL list. I said "It's a wiki page, don't take it as gospel, follow the links and references."

Shooting If you want to rubbish and dismiss the groundbreaking work of Richard North, and government reports just because they are mentioned on a wiki page, do go ahead. I really can't follow your logic but there you go.

If on the other hand you follow up the links and reference and find that they are forged or unconvincing or in someway incredible, I would be interested in hearing your views.

90% of convictions is not necessarily 90% of convictions, or 90% of prosecutions.

The reason no-one specifies if a criminal is white is because white is the default (institutionalised racism). Otherwise yes, the race of white perpetrators should be mentioned as often as the race of perpetrators who are not white. Media racial bias - a summary of a report here with a link to the full report here

I remember something more recent - I think from an academic at Swansea or Cardiff University, but it was a couple of years ago and I haven't found it on a quick Google. There's lots of more recent US analysis.

Here it is, specific to the reporting of British Muslims:
report

"Decontextualisation, misinformation and a preferred discourse of threat, fear and danger, while not uniformly present, were strong forces in the reporting of British Muslims in the UK national press. "

Again, no. Catholic priests just happen to be predominantly white, but their race did not genetically predispose the priests to becoming paedophiles

I haven't seen anyone suggesting anything of the sort in relation to these crimes, and it's not my view. Perhaps you are misinterpreting people's wish to not let the difficulty of navigating through possible cultural or racial issues stand in the way of protecting children as them believing the above in relation to the perpetrators. It's really not.

You'll never persuade Woodpigeon who has been banging the same drum the whole thread (if you can bothered to scroll back that far) and thinks this is the reason the media don't report these cases (despite linking to endless incidence of the media reporting these cases which rather proves that that is not the case). Almost everyone else understood from the programme and from subsequent interviews with Sara Rowbotham and even from some of the reports linked by Woodpigeon that the reason these offences weren't investigated and were allowed to continue for so long was because of the way society, the police, socials services, in fact just about everyone, viewed the girls. They didn't make sympathetic victims and were considered to have made a lifestyle choice. Much the same way many of Jimmy Saville's victims were viewed in fact. Their abusers knew this and that is why they targeted them in the first place. Woodpigeon wants to persuade you that they were allowed to get away with it because they were Asian and that the reason they took advantage in the first place was because they were Asian - which is something the Rochdale gang tried to play on in court complaining the jury had found against them because they were racist. No one on this thread or anywhere else is denying they were Asian, but that is not the reason the prosecution took so long. Any prejudice there may have been was entirely against the girls, witness the fact that Amber didn't see any justice because she was considered too scummy to put before a jury. Give it a rest Woodpigeon I can't believe you are still on here Tryin o make your case though it is very reassuring that no one seems to be persuaded by you.

And this one from Leeds University:
"Based on empirical data generated from detailed media analysis over three months (Oct 2011-Dec 2011), our report will provide a critical account of the key issues we found to be hegemonic in the press, these include: The war on terror, fundamentalism and Prevent; Grooming, abuse and madrassas; Forced marriages and immigration; and Muslim related domestic issues. Through these various and often overlapping issues we will examine the role of the media
in the construction and framing of Muslims in the UK exploring how such representations impact upon current debates surrounding racism and tolerance. "

here