Three Girls (BBC 9pm)

[ASauvingnonADay]

Looking forward to watching this tonight. Feel it might be one to watch with your teenagers..

Just to be clear, was Holly's baby fathered by one of the abusers? The child is white in the tv show and I can't see anything online after doing a quick google. Can we assume the other baby was also fathered by one of the abusers.

Omg that's like something from the Middle Ages.

Yes I thought that about Holly's baby.

Also who were the other kids who lived in the house Holly went to in the first episode and where was Lorna?

I have used the EDL website, because it has a lot of info on it that's taken from one of your posts Woodpigeon Thu 18-May-17 00:43:24

Yes, in real life one of the rapists fathered a child with the 13 year old victim. Babies are often lighter at birth and darken up later on so a white looking baby could Well be mixed race.

Disgusting to think all but 2 of the men convicted have now been released. 5 of them were supposed to be deported but have been appealing for 5 years! We have all been paying for these monsters to remain in the same country as their victims for 5 years- fucking disgusting.

Of course it has an agenda - I've already said so

Lillian So again, you say the Guardian has an agenda, but if I say it has an agenda, then this somehow tells you something about me. Odd.

You mentioned The Guardian and seemed surprised that it might have a particular political viewpoint. Obviously it does, but has nevertheless reported these cases - not just in the news pages, but also on its comment pages.

I have no idea when I expressed surprise at the G having a particular political viewpoint. Perhaps more subtext?

I made a very specific point about the Guardian's reporting of these gangs, which is to reporting after June 2016, not before. If you know of any such reports, as I say not from Rochdale or Rotherham, please link to them. Just saying it has reported after June 2016 without linking to the reports is not very credible.

You have now linked to an article in The Guardian from 2011 making exactly the same point as was made in the BBC drama - that the girls were let down by a system which found it hard to identify them as victims. I understand The Guardian's agenda - I'm struggling to understand yours.

Did you actually read the article, or just look for a section which backs up your viewpoint? The article does say that, after and based on the rest of the article which is a demolition of the work of Richard North of the Times exposing the existence of these gangs, and is a refutation of there being such a thing as Asian Muslim grooming gang. So I'm a bit bemused how this is support for your view.

Are you now saying that these gangs don't exist and that Richard North's report was false?

I have used the EDL website, because it has a lot of info on it that's taken from one of your posts Woodpigeon Thu 18-May-17 00:43:24

Yes, I have looked at the website at the list of convictions and dates. And then I have gone to the original sources - newspaper articles or BBC webpage to get the information. So the information I have put on this thread is from newspapers and the BBC and I have assuemd nothing from the EDL website to be true if I haven't read it from another, more credible source. Do you think the newspaper articles and BBC link forged?

You tried to smear stones based on assumptions and now you are trying to smear me in the same way. You are making insinuations about me, based on guesswork, and trying to imply that my motives are unpleasant. You seem more interested in doing this than in discussing the tv drama or the issue of grooming gangs. This is a common tactic these days for some to try to silence people they disagree with. I think more and more people are starting tosee it for what it is.

Just watching this now

A terrific drama and one that's really important. I knew Maxine Peake and Lesley Sharp were going to be as great as usual but the young actresses playing Amber, Ruby and Holly blew me away.

Really made me think. I can't understand why Sarah Rowbotham was taken off any future child grooming cases? And then made redundant?

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/you-preyed-on-girls-because-they-were-687987

'You preyed on girls because they were not part of your community or religion', says judge as he jails Rochdale sex gang for 77 years

Anyone who wants to understand the Rochdale case and grooming gangs better should not take what was portrayed in a tv drama, however excellent and important it was, as the definite and final word on the subject. Look at the original and factual reports of which there are many.

The Casey Report into Rotherham

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/401125/46966_Report_of_Inspection_of_Rotherham_WEB.pdf

The key matter of concern here for Inspectors is that RMBC’s inability to talk about race and the different communities in Rotherham had implications for their approach to dealing with CSE.

In Rotherham, the phenomenon of CSE emerging from the late 1990s onwards concerned a majority of white, female, adolescent or teenage victims and a majority of Pakistani heritage adult male perpetrators. Early concerns raised about CSE by youth workers and others had also repeatedly mentioned taxi drivers.

This predominant involvement of Pakistani heritage men was certainly the view of all those who Inspectors spoke to who had been close to operational work around street grooming and CSE in Rotherham in the previous 15 years. Victims shared this view. Our review of case files and strategy meetings held about perpetrators and victims as well as other information we came across, confirmed that perpetrators were usually described as being Pakistani men. This was a matter of fact.

However the wider culture in Rotherham we have described meant that from the outset the added dimension of the ethnic background of perpetrators was an awkward and uncomfortable truth which, in the view of the inspection team, affected the way that the Council (and the police) dealt with CSE.

“Everyone here will say it’s not a race issue, that white people abuse too. That’s true, but there is a race issue here.” A social worker

“I got my knuckles rapped by [manager] on that occasion for mentioning Asian taxi drivers… she had been told [what I’d said] was controversial and not to mention ethnicity.” A youth worker

Staff perceived that there was only a small step between mentioning the ethnicity of perpetrators and being labelled a racist.

“They were running scared of the race issue… There is no doubt that in Rotherham this has been a problem with Pakistani men for years and years… People were scared of being called racist.” A former police officer

On the ground, individual professionals felt under pressure. “We had specific instances where taxis were involved [in CSE]. We tried to follow it up with taxi licensing, but I can’t remember how far we got. We were constantly being reminded not to be racist.” A former social worker

Another social worker recalled a strategy meeting about an exploited young person where Pakistani heritage taxi drivers were referred to as “men of a certain ethnicity, engaged in a particular occupation.”

“If we mentioned Asian taxi drivers we were told we were racist and the young people were seen as prostitutes.” A former social worker

“…you couldn’t bring up race issues in meetings… or you would be branded a racist.” A key partner

“The number one priority was to preserve and enhance the [Pakistani heritage] community – which wasn’t an unworthy goal but it wasn’t right at the time. It was difficult to stand up in a meeting and say that the perpetrators were from the Pakistani Heritage community and were using the taxi system - even though everyone knew it.” A former key partner

Frontline staff were clearly anxious about being branded racist. Whether there was an element of self-censorship or otherwise, the impact of this was clear. The Council was not dealing with a serious problem right before its eyes.

Certainly this was not limited to frontline officers. There was also a clear perception among senior officers that the ethnic dimension of CSE in Rotherham was taboo. “They wanted to use any other word than Asian males. They were terrified about [the effect on] community cohesion. I got this sense from overhearing conversations between [senior Member] and [senior officer] ….they were terrified of the BNP.” A former senior officer

The background threat of the BNP (British National Party) or EDL (English Defence League) exploiting the problems in Rotherham for their own divisive ends may have been a rationale for not talking about the ‘race issue’ openly. But in fact this made it worse. Even if at some point, by some people, this was well intentioned, it has not served any positive purpose at all. It has in effect suppressed a problem that should be dealt with openly and properly.

………..

Rotherham’s suppression of these uncomfortable issues and its fear of being branded racist has done a disservice to the Pakistani heritage community as well as the wider community. It has prevented discussion and effective action to tackle the problem. This has allowed perpetrators to remain at large, has let victims down, and perversely, has allowed the far right to try and exploit the situation. These may have been unintended consequences but the impact remains the same and reaches into the present day.

“People were afraid that they’d get into trouble if they said something that was perceived as racist….that was probably why the issue had been allowed to escalate so far, and that if someone had had the guts to stand up and say ‘I don’t care what colour you are, that’s a child’, then maybe they could have dealt with it.” A police officer

@WoodPigeonInFlight you have spent hours on this? Why? We are all sickened and saddened and angry but you seem obsessed.

Jakey I'm not quite sure if there is a subtext to your question or if it is a genuine question.

So on this thread posters have made various statements to the effect that

• there was no cultural/racial/religious element to these crimes

• there was no fear of being called racist or inflaming racial tensions element to the responses by the authorities to these crimes

• that most of the blame falls on, variously, the social workers, the police, the parents

• that as long as the police and courts deal properly with the crimes once they are reported, the problem is solved and we don't need to worry about trying to prevent these crimes happening place in the first place

• that we can and should tackle and prevent these crimes without discussing or mentioning the actual facts of the cases

I think all these statements are wrong and I think it is vital, if we are to tackle and prevent these crimes, that we learn from the mistakes of the past, rather than repeat them.

It's interesting that no-one putting forward the above views has had their motives or credibility questioned (well, I and another poster did mention that having an agenda can go both ways). I on the other hand have been told I "have an agenda", "have an axe to grind", that I am a "dubious" person. It has been hinted at that I am far-right, an EDL supporter and a racist. And now I "am obsessed".

No, I am none of these. I feel strongly about this issue. I know the harm that child sexual abuse does. I think it is great that the BBC showed the drama, but it's important that people don't take away a sanitised, half-truth view from it. I don't think the ostritch approach is working well.

Lots of the links I have provided, from the judge and official reports and the criminals own mouths back up what I am saying.

Sometimes people find it easier to believe a particular version of a situation because it is easier, doesn't raise difficult or uncomfortable questions, either for organisations or individuals. There are lots of tactics people use to try to silence or sideline people who are trying to raise difficult issues.

The Casey report clearly states that this avoiding of uncomfortable facts leads to damage to community cohesion and to the very community people misguidedly think they are helping. And most importantly to failing to adequately protect children.

You're right wood. Let's round up all the Pakistani British people and deport them right now.

Is that what you believe Lean? I don't and I think that is disgusting and racist.

It's interesting that some people are simultaneously denying that fear of being called a racist for bringing up actual facts was a factor in the Rochdale scandal and similar, whilst calling me a racist for bringing up actual facts.

If you think that I am wrong, that the judge was wrong, that the newspaper reports of things said at the trials, that Casey and all the people quoted in the Casey report, who were there at the time were wrong, why don't you argue against what they said and present your evidence, rather than just trying to slur me?

wood

Whilst I think it is right that the reasons why men from particular communities commit these particular crimes I think this, most certainly, has to be done in a sensitive, systematic and studied way with full involvement of people from those communities. I'm not sure that drawing any conclusions concerning the ideology of a particular community is appropriate without that community being heavily involved in discussions.

On the surface, all I can really certainly observe, is that these men's community provided opportunity for such an organised crime operation. They had extensive connections across cities, people with transport and public facing businesses where they could meet and groom the victims. They had plenty of members to serve as a threat. There is also an element where the victims were considered 'outsiders', as no one in the immediate vicinity of where these crimes were organised and took place.

The insularity I think is a key point, which makes sensitive, evidence based approach of absolute key importance because anything less could increase the insular nature of communities which only perpetuates this sort of crime.

It must be remembered that whilst Pakistani men formed the organised gangs in the crimes being discussed here, other communities fit very similar profiles and organised abuses have occurred amongst other communities. This is an important point because singling out one community for the crimes committed within and amongst it only serves to makes those communities more insular which is a key factor in these crimes.

"as no one in the immediate vicinity of where these crimes were organised and took place Cared about these girls enough to report/investigate further", that should say. Typo omission.

@WoodPigeonInFlight genuine question. I agree with a lot of what you say.

wood honestly I don't even know what point you are making.

The main factor (as mentioned in all the reports, serious case reviews and even the bloody tv show) in this abuse case is the same in every abuse case. These were vulnerable victims who were disregarded by most professionals. It was sexism, it was a lack of understanding of victimhood.

Yes as highlighted briefly in the show and the reports you list, it is concerning that a large proportion of in street grooming is committed by Pakistani men. But how do we actually combat that? It's a very small proportion of British Pakistanis involved. We cannot discriminate against the many because of the few.

And as people such as Sara have argued time and time again, you focus on the 'type' of perpetrator, you leave yourself blind to the victims who sufferer at the hands of men who don't fit that type. And there are millions of young children in this country being abused right now by people who aren't Asian.

“People were afraid that they’d get into trouble if they said something that was perceived as racist….that was probably why the issue had been allowed to escalate so far, and that if someone had had the guts to stand up and say ‘I don’t care what colour you are, that’s a child’, then maybe they could have dealt with it.” A police officer

How does that make sense when it was the white police officers and white social workers who believed children could act as consensual prostitutes?

Do you not think for one moment Wood you have made your point? Give it a rest.

Other people have watched this programme and want to comment on it, rightly so.

clarity I agree a lot you say in your post.

Elendon I have tried to make my points but some posters have been trying to slur me instead of arguing, to discredit my points. You might not think it is reasonable for me to defend myself and defend my points, I do.

Other people have watched this programme and want to comment on it, rightly so

I am not stopping anyone else from posting. If people don't want to read my posts, no-one is making them.

Please don't tell me to shut up. Everyone is entitled to post.

Jakeyboy1 Thanks for clarifying.

I didn't tell you to shut up though. Very telling.

Would you tell a young girl to shut up and listen?

I'm therefore entitled to tell you to give it a rest though. Let others have a say.