Three Girls (BBC 9pm)

[ASauvingnonADay]

Looking forward to watching this tonight. Feel it might be one to watch with your teenagers..

Apologies - disrespect our soldiers

lolly - what are you taking about? Where is that example from?
I don't think our services personnel get that level of support. And anyway, it's irrelevant, it's not a competition.

If a certain type of crime is disproportionately committed by a particular ethnic group or people from particular countries or of a particular religion, then there is a cultural element, isn't there? By definition. If there is no cultural element, types of crimes will be committed proportionally across the population.

The only time we would see a difference in incidences of crimes between cultures which is not cultural is for crimes where opportunity is a major factor or where inequalities such as poverty are an explanation.

Are opportunity or inequalities the factors behind these crimes?

Opportunity
Many people on this thread have argued that the girls were particularly vulnerable to abuse because of their family backgrounds and some have explicitly blamed the parents. However, if the vulnerability of the girls was the major factor in these crimes being committed (which I do not accept, but for the purposes of the argument) and the culture of the abusers is irrelevant, why have there not been a similar number of cases of grooming gangs which are not Asian Muslims to those Muslim grooming gangs we know of in Rochdale, Rotherham, Oxford, Bristol, Dewsbury, Halifax, Huddersfield, Sheffield, Keighley, Leeds, etc, etc?

Poverty
Same argument. There are far larger numbers of people living in poverty in the UK who are not Asian Muslims, but we are not seeing this type of crime perpetrated in anything like the numbers by these people.

(If I am wrong in my assumption that 90% of street grooming gangs are Muslims, mostly Asian but some African too, and there are large numbers of other street grooming gangs which are not being reported, please could you point me in the direction of the information on this.)

It is in Rochdale today not one survivor but many.

I highlighted the fact, it was being said to highlight the direct discrimination in services received from a user perspective.

It's not a competition at all as one group, namely survivors are written off before the race to recovery even starts, it is a fact, 2 people, same geographical location, same illness, 2 entirely different treatment routes.

Why is it irrelevant?

two exact set of circumstances are met with, 2 entirely different outcomes, at a great detriment to one group.

Woodpigeon no-one is engaging with you because you have a very particular axe to grind. I'm actually quite reassured by that. This thread was started to discuss a TV drama which raised certain issues surrounding why the plight of these girls was ignored for such a long time. It wasn't because the gangs were Asian. The men themselves tried to use that as an excuse when they were convicted - accusing the jury of racism. It was stated clearly by the Asian lawyer in the programme that this is a type of abuse prevalent among the Pakistani community (despite the fact that the vast majority of child abusers are white). What more is there to say? Police forces up and down the country are arresting, charging and convicting groups of men - a handy post from an EDL website earlier in this thread illustrated that along with the long list at the end of the programme. What more are you expecting? The deportation of all Pakistani men on the off-chance they may be offenders? You are like the man in the crowd outside the court hurling abuse at the Pakistani lawyer who had brought the case to court where a previously (non-Pakistani) lawyer had refused to do so.

I don't know why you are starting to accuse me of wanting to deport all Pakistani men when I have suggested nothing of the sort. Personal insults and strawmen are always the best way to go if you disagree with someone, of course.

This thread was started to discuss a TV drama which raised certain issues surrounding why the plight of these girls was ignored for such a long time. It wasn't because the gangs were Asian

I disagree that fear of being called racist or of inflaming racial divisions was not a factor in the plight of these girls. This is a real case, and the real facts may differ to those shown in a dramatisation.

However, even if this is the case, and the failure of the police, social services was nothing to do with ethnicity, there are two aspects to these crimes.

One is how the crimes are dealt with by the authorities.

The second is the perpetrators of the crimes and the reasons they do these crimes.

Even if the first is not a cultural issue, the second clearly is. I am really unsure why the great reluctance to acknowledge this. I don't know if it is denial, fear of being accused of racism, that it requires a bit of thought, that we want to pretend it is all dealt with and we can give people awards and clap ourselves on the back that it is all resolved. I don't think it helps anyone though.

And Lillian if you disagree with what I am saying, why don't you argue against what I am saying, without the insults and accusations of me saying or thinking things which I don't?

Noone is denying it is a cultural issue - it was acknowledged in the programme (which went out of the way to point out at every opportunity that it was sticking to reporting events as they happened including using actual court transcripts), but the problem with bringing the cases to court was because of concerns that the girls testimony would not be believed. This is the reason why Amber was not called as a witness.

You haven't actually called for the deportation of Pakistani men, but this does seem to be the sub-text of many of your posts. I'm actually delighted to hear you say that is not the case.

I have had a few of my posts not come up. Probably for the better!

I come from a family where two generations ago arranged marriages were the norm. Our family culture has evolved. Today I'm married to a Dane (Christian), my sister is married to a ME Christian and my brother is married to an English girl. This is how assimilation is supposed to work. Yes I'm Jewish but I'm British first. When I get in a flap I adopt a stiff upper lip, have a cup of tea and muddle along.

The problem we have in the U.K. is that assimilation has been a disaster. It's been about pandering rather than accepting and evolution. I have had people tell me how I shouldn't have been forced to attend school assembly and pray. You know I never said a prayer in the first four years. In the fifth year I used the moment of silence to have a moment of meditation.

Also, the Muslim religion, along with all the other religions have a problem with how women are thought as. There has been widely documented abuse within the Catholic Church. I know it's happened and happens in the Jewish orthodox community. It's hardly a surprise it happens in the Muslim religious community too.

The devastating part of this is how these girls have been let down. There is a major issue in our society with how the lowest socioeconomic groups are thought of and assisted. I'm from a place of privilege and hear lefty liberals talk about how we have to help 'them'. They see it has a case of us and them. It suits them to divide and rule by fear and ignorance.

The political parties capitalizing on this are EDL and UKIP. I find it ironic they are referred to as far right. If you look at their policies they are actually far left with a lot of socialist policies.

Those who think Labour are down and out, actually with JC, he is going to get a sizable number of votes because he is representing the needs of the lower socioeconomic groups which outnumber in terms of votes the number in the upper socioeconomic groups.

You haven't actually called for the deportation of Pakistani men, but this does seem to be the sub-text of many of your posts. I'm actually delighted to hear you say that is not the case

Lillian Have you actually read my posts properly? I think you are perhaps reading in a "sub-text" which isn't there. I have clearly said, several times, that what I want is equal treatment of criminals. I want to see an end to difficult truths being brushed under the carpet by adults to make their own lives easier with the end result that children suffer more.

I really don't understand how you get from that to me wanting anyone deported (except for convicted criminals).

With regards to psychological support services the best access to treatment comes with money.

I have C-PTSD from an abusive/neglectful childhood. But the difference between me and the girls in the show is that whilst my parents were woefully inadequate at caring for me emotionally and keeping me safe they DID give me all of the trappings of a priveleged, middle class upbringing.

As a result I was able to go to university and have a successful, professional career then married my successful, professional DH before my past caught up with me and I had a mental health crisis.

I am able to spend a few hundred pounds a month on therapy that I would be lost without. It keeps me functioning as a decent parent and going to work etc.

By contrast, my ex-squaddie friend had good therapeutic support for his PTSD whilst in the army but has nothing now. He came from a very poor, working class background, works many hours in a low-paid job and can't access anything other than anti-depressants on the NHS.

Unfortunately many of the victims of these grooming gangs simply won't have the financial resources to access the services they need at any point in their lives.

That is a terrible thing, and so unfair.

I might have shared their shitty experience of CSA, but I have hope and access to a service that helps me deal with that. I can't imagine how much worse it would be without adequate support. I am so glad that some of the girls were compensated financially.

I don't understand what you mean by equal treatment for criminals. These men were prosecuted and received long sentences. Men like them have been prosecuted up and down the country. What is required is equal treatment for victims - so some victims are not considered less deserving than others. The unequal treatment in this case was of Amber - who was considered less credible than the other two girls.

www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Militaryhealthcare/veterans-families-reservists/Pages/veterans-mental-health.aspx

Your ex armed forces friend may find the above link useful, it is a national dedicated service for ex services - I wish u both well on your life journeys!

He may also wish to refer to the NICE guidelines on treatment for the NHS and complain through his local Patient Advice & Liason Service or highlight service issues through the local HealthWatch, which are ran by each local council.

This is an interesting read. www.mensenhandelweb.nl/system/files/documents/08%20feb%202016/Easy-Meat-Multiculturalism-Islam-and-Child-Sex-Slavery-05-03-2014.pdf

napac.org.uk/mental-health-needs-of-survivors-of-childhood-abuse-are-not-being-met-by-the-nhs/

Amber's treatment was appalling. It was clear to anyone with a brain the size of a pea that she was a victim. Yet, she was not deemed a credible witness because the jury would not believe her. In the 21st century. Unreal times we live in.

Only one of the perpetrators choose to plead guilty and thus spare the victims of having to go to trial. Those men knew exactly what they were doing in pleading not guilty and I hope they are deported. Their families are better off without them. Oh, and they are not great dads either.

Lillian My concern is the lack of reporting in the national press and to some extent the BBC, and the resulting effect of this on how we deal with the problem.

It really does seem that the police have got to grips with the problem, and that is excellent. Likewise the courts. But I really have a very strong feeling that the national press and BBC are not reporting these crimes in the way they would others. I may be wrong, and am quite open to it being pointed out if I am.

The thing is, when we have other child sex abuse 'scandals,' for want of a better word, they are covered in the national media and we have a national discussion about how they were allowed to happen, what we can do to stop them happening again etc (see Saville, Catholic priests etc). We talk about them and we educate children and parents about them so that they can try to protect themselves. That seems to be the whole ethos of child protection work - get it out in the open, shine a light on it, don't let it be a taboo.

But it seems to me this is not what is happening here. Perhaps I am wrong and everyone was aware of the scale of this abuse. It didn't seem so from the earlier responses on the thread. Discussions I have had in rl suggest many people don't know. I think this is worrying.

As I say, I am more than happy to be corrected if I am wrong about the press. It is a long, slow process to check if I am right and I know it is easy to find what you expect to find, if you know what I mean.

One theory I have is that the Guardian has not printed any reports on these grooming gangs since mid 2016, other than those in Rochdale and Rotherham. I think many people believe that there were gangs in Rochdale and Rotherham and that these are now dealt with and the problem has gone.

I have looked at articles on one particular case to see what the press coverage was. I will put details in the next post.

I have looked online for articles about the particularly dreadful Calderdale gang case where one girl was raped by 100 men, sometimes by up to 19 men in one day. The gang were sentenced on 17 June 2016.

Here is the Wiki page.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_child_sex_abuse_ring

There are fairly numerous local press reports. Here are a sample:

www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/14564333.Group_of_men_jailed_for_total_of_169_years_for_sexual_abuse_of_vulnerable_schoolgirl/

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/how-100-men-were-able-to-prey-on-one-vulnerable-halifax-schoolgirl-for-two-years-1-7969702

There is a report on the BBC local page, but nothing on their national page:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36559092

There is a report in the Mirror:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vile-sex-gang-caged-168-8219903

I can find nothing in the Guardian. I find it very surprising that convictions of this seriousness would not be reported in the Guardian.

It seems the Independent think the grooming gang issue is limited to Rotherham

www.independent.co.uk/topic/grooming-gangs

but I'm not sure if I consider it a proper newspaper anyway.

I will be very happy, and very pleased to be corrected, if someone can show me I am wrong and that the Guardian have printed any reports on these convictions or on grooming gangs other than in Rochdale and Rotherham since (and including) June 2016.

It's not just Savile and catholic priests though. It's white men in the main. You Wood have listed a lot of perpetrators, but still the majority of men in prison for the sexual abuse of children are white British. Think about that.

It's about the endemic and systemic abuse of children that is perpetrated and ignored. One white man doing it to his daughters or victims for years, others in groups/gangs - though in those mainly Asian groups/gangs there were white British as well.

This abuse has to stop and it can stop if society sees young girls as young girls and not potentially a sex toy for the gratification of men, regardless of their race, religion or colour.

I'm not sure what your point is about newspapers Woodpigeon. Are you suggesting that the British press is too right on and politically correct to report these cases? The Times led by reporter Andrew Norfolk ran a long campaign on the subject - indeed that newspaper played a large part in bringing the subject to public attention. Do they report every single court case? No - realistically how could they? Local papers (where they still exist) are much more likely to do so - they do tend to be papers of record and some still take the view that names sell papers so naming and shaming perpetrators is almost part of their punishment. One thing is for sure - if national newspapers are not reporting all of these cases it is not because they are too right on to do so. As for the BBC - well they commissioned the drama didn't they?

Elendon I agree with all of what you say.

The majority of men convicted of sexual abuse are white British, as we would expect since so is the majority of the population.

I'm fully aware that huge amounts of child sexual abuse go on within families and of the dreadful effects of this on the victims.

I'm aware that there are white grooming gangs and white people in mainly Asian grooming gangs.

This abuse has to stop and it can stop if society sees young girls as young girls and not potentially a sex toy for the gratification of men, regardless of their race, religion or colour.

I completely agree. But I think the national press should report, and we all should be able to discuss, this particular type of child sexual abuse, as well as others, because I think this is needed to tackle it. I think it is dangerous if every time this particular type of abuse is discussed, people are not able to discuss the reality and facts of the abuse.

Lillian I did exclude the Times from my theory - I know that Richard North has done some key investigative pieces.

On the BBC, yes, I did mention them vaguely but I agree, they did commission the drama. I also don't watch the BBC national news so I am really unaware of whether they have been covering these cases or not. So I'm going to backtrack massively on that one...

I do think there is an issue with the Guardian, and actually, yes I do believe the Guardian choose what news to print on the basis of what fits their political agenda, and I don't think this is a wildly paraoid suggestion. I realise that not every criminal court case is going to be covered in a national paper. However the Guardian used to cover grooming cases of this scale before June 2016, and then stopped. So for example, the arrests for the Oxford Sabaton case in June 2015 were reported but the convictions of this gang in July 2016 were not reported. Odd.

And, as I say, there are no reports after June 2016 other than those relating to Rochdale and Rotherham. I'm finding it hard to understand why that would be unless there is some political/agenda motivation.

Do you think most people were aware of the scale and spread of these grooming gangs before the drama was shown?