Three Girls (BBC 9pm)

[ASauvingnonADay]

Looking forward to watching this tonight. Feel it might be one to watch with your teenagers..

The offenders do have a position of power in this case though. It was partly what allowed them to operate. They had criminal connections across different cities, no wonder the girls were scared. Their numbers added to the threat the girls experienced. They were able to use their taxi firms to drive the girls everywhere with no one questioning them. The police did also cite not wanting to seem racist as a factor which impeded their investigation.

Yes, the girl's vulnerability was a factor too but criminal cases are often complex with more than one factor affecting how well they are tackled.

What the police feared was that if the girls were not believed by a jury - or left enough room for reasonable doubt - then they would not secure a conviction and that this might lead to race riots because they would then be accused of racism in having accused the Pakistanis in the first place. But it comes down to the same thing - they thought the girls might not be believed (that's why they are asking not to put Amber up at the end of the last episode - because they have two convincing witnesses who might be undermined by her evidence).

This is the Jay report into Rotherham. Possibly relevant

www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham

By far the majority of perpetrators were described as 'Asian' by victims, yet throughout the entire period, councillors did not engage directly with the Pakistani-heritage community to discuss how best they could jointly address the issue. Some councillors seemed to think it was a one-off problem, which they hoped would go away. Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so

Issues of ethnicity related to child sexual exploitation have been discussed in other reports, including the Home Affairs Select Committee report, and the report of the Children’s Commissioner. Within the Council, we found no evidence of children’s social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE. In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to 'downplay' the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as 'racist'. From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged.

There was too much reliance by agencies on traditional community leaders such as elected members and imams as being the primary conduit of communication with the Pakistani-heritage community. The Inquiry spoke to several Pakistani-heritage women who felt disenfranchised by this and thought it was a barrier to people coming forward to talk about CSE. Others believed there was wholesale denial of the problem in the Pakistani-heritage community in the same way that other forms of abuse were ignored. Representatives of women's groups were frustrated that interpretations of the Borough's problems with CSE were often based on an assumption that similar abuse did not take place in their own community and therefore concentrated mainly on young white girls. Both women and men from the community voiced strong concern that other than two meetings in 2011, there had been no direct engagement with them about CSE over the past 15 years, and this needed to be addressed urgently, rather than 'tiptoeing' around the issue

11.5 In her (Dr Heal) 2006 report, she stated that 'it is believed by a number of workers that one of the difficulties that prevent this issue [CSE] being dealt with effectively is the ethnicity of the main perpetrators'. 11.6 She also reported in 2006 that young people in Rotherham believed at that time that the Police dared not act against Asian youths for fear of allegations of racism. This perception was echoed at the present time by some young people we met during the Inquiry, but was not supported by specific examples.

11.7 Several people interviewed expressed the general view that ethnic considerations had influenced the policy response of the Council and the Police, rather than in individual cases. One example was given by the Risky Business project Manager (1997- 2012) who reported that she was told not to refer to the ethnic origins of perpetrators when carrying out training. Other staff in children’s social care said that when writing reports on CSE cases, they were advised by their managers to be cautious about referring to the ethnicity of the perpetrators

Just a few excerpts.

There are some who make excuses though for the abuse and rape of Asian women by Asian men. Southall Black Sisters have been challenging this for years. Often liberals who excuse FGM, forced marriage, domination by Husbands, etc as a "different culture". I remember when Amnesty International passed a motion saying that FGM was a cultural issue and not violence against women.

Violence, rape, intimidation, abuse, domination, is that whoever it happens to. And I am sick of liberals making excuses for it. That is relevant to Rotherham.

And anyone who thinks you can find out what is happening in terms of abuse in the Muslim community by talking to Imams, wants their head shaken.

lillian are you reading the same stuff I am or have posted or the Jay report? It couldnt be clearer that yes - some factions with police and within SW did want to play down race and were nervous of pursing for that reason!

This is before it even got to bloody court. You do realise the utter fight it took to get this to court in the first place? It took years and years to get it to court and it was hindered in part down to race issues and fear around it.

bratsy I agree - its women and children who are being pushed down the list of priorities as always.

I also agree police and SW and everyone else need to break through this "speaking to the elders" and immans. I read recently of issues with police still doing this and even sending frightened women back to the very people they are complaining about. Its one law and one system here we musnt be afraid to use it

LIberals are not the problem here though. What is unacceptable is people - of any race whether they are Pakistani taxi drivers, social workers, police officers, the CPS or ordinary members of the public sitting on a jury - believing that a wayward child from a chaotic background somehow deserves everything that happens to her and deserves lesser consideration because she's a "slag". Yes the Asian gangs made that assumption - but so did all the agencies who were supposedly there to help victims. What those people have in common is not that they come from a particular ethnic group, but that they share that belief. What needs to happen is for society to wake up and say no one deserves to be treated like that - however old they are and what ever class they come from. Yes the gangs themselves must take the blame - but we can't deduce from that that all Asians share their views - by the same token police and social service should change their stance on what constitutes a victim. If police had acted on Holly's initial complaint many more victims would have been spared.

Roses I am reading what you post, but interpret it in a different way. As I said before, the reason the police hesitated to prosecute was not because the perpetrators were Asian - that is too simplistic. They hesitated for fear of not securing a conviction because the victims would not be believed - and that if the men got off scot free the police would then be accused of racism for going after them in the first place. The victims were targeted in the first place because they were unreliable witnesses and because they were unreliable witnesses the police hesitated to prosecute.

Also if you read the report, status of staff played a part. Social Workers and police did dismiss stuff because it came from youth workers. I have seen this happening in real life. Youth workers feedback about sexual exploitation and get dismissed by others because youth workers do not have the same status. This is a national issue.

Lillian You seem very confident in asserting that fear of being labelled as racist or of inflaming racial tension were not factors in the failures of police, social workers and others inRochdale, despite the Jay Report into Rotherham saying that these were key issues.

Could you explain how you know this to be the case? Do you have any evidence to back up your assertions?

Did the girls / women affected get any compensation for the negligence of the police?

I bet they all developed PTSD and depression / anxiety based problems afterwards. I'll bet it ruined their lives. One of the women had a child half Asian by rape.

I really hope they got compensation. And we're paid by TV programme.

Horrific horrific reality

I too have read the Jay Report. It does not say that fear of racism was the key issue. It does say it was an issue, especially with Councillors not pushing the issue. It says the key issue is that the girls were seen as making a lifestyle choice. They were seen as either prostitutes, or at best, wanting to have sex with lots of men. They were not seen as children, or as children who were being abused.

If police had acted on Holly's initial complaint many more victims would have been spared

But your placing the sole reason for this as being they held a certain view of the girls - which YES they did.
But at the same time your totally discounting the fear of being labelled racist - and I don't understand this when in the posts above there are quotes from the Jay report AND from SW and POlice involved that this was in fact a reason they were hesitant to proceed.

I do not understand why you would discount this when its there in black and white.

Yes the gangs themselves must take the blame - but we can't deduce from that that all Asians share their views

But who on earth is deducing this. I think your making assumptions that people are, no one on this thread has done that .

Not all priests are pedophiles, not all nuns wanted to beat and bury young un married mothers and their babies, not all .....for eternity. I don't understand what your laboring here.

No, that isn't what brasty is doing. A number of posters on this thread are trying to make this all about race. It isn't.

I work in this area. Have done for 20+ years. Not Rochdale but child abuse, sexual exploitation and I deal with Social Care duty teams daily.

It's happening in every town across the country and every Children's Social Care team is horrificly underfunded, thresholds are so high it's only the ones who are considered at risk of death that are worked with well.

I dread to think what's going to happen when the damaged kids of today become parents. It's getting worse not better!

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Woodpigeon please read my post again. What I am saying is that police hesitated to prosecute because they feared being accused of racism is they failed to secure a conviction and the reason they thought they might not secure a conviction was because they didn't believe the girls were credible witnesses (or more to the point they thought a jury might not think the girls were credible witnesses). If it had been a white gang the same criteria would have applied - just as it does in any prosecution of a sex offender. Is the complainant credible? Lots of rape complaints never make it to court because the victim isn't the right sort of person. The point is, as Maxine Peake's character points out, that should never really have been an issue in this case. A child who is under the age of consent should be protected by the law - she is not deemed old enough to be able to give consent - so when you have a 13-year-old pregnant by a 40-year-old man he should be guilty whatever she looks like or whatever she did. The question is why is this not the case? The police did not doubt the girls had been having sex with these men and there was evidence that sex had taken place, but that was not considered eneough evidence to prosecute. Not because the men were Asian, but because the girls were not the right sort of girls. Looking at the wider picture of whether Asian gangs in general are grooming white girls is a more sensitive issue I agree, but in this case what was happening was clear cut. Everyone knew the girls were having sex with the men - the question was whether a jury would believe any crime had been committed.

A number of posters on this thread are trying to make this all about race. It isn't

So if a poster tries to discuss whether there are factors connected with race, such as fear of being called a racist etc, does that in your view mean they are "trying to make this all about race"?

I really can't see that anyone is trying to make it all about race. Do you think we should not mention any racial aspects to this problem at all? Is that the only way to avoid being called a racist?

So the women from the Muslim community quoted above who felt that their community didn't receive the input it needed because of misconceptions about that community, were they being racists and should they not have mentioned that issue?

Rinkydinkypink

Is it always Asian nationalities linked to kebab shops / taxis running it in other places or is it always foreign or Muslim background?

Are the girls targeted usually white and poor or does it vary?

But who on earth is deducing this When people start lifting facts and statistics from an EDL website I think we are coming dangerously close to this.

But you have decided to focus in prosecution and whether the girls would have convinced a Jury, your still ignoring the fact throughout this whole process, way before it even got to the court stage , way before this - there was a mountain to climb before court.....that seeming racist was a factor.

I dont see why your reluctant to admit this, its there in the quotes and reports.

why is it so bad to say " yes some people - sw and police did shove this away due to fear of being called racisit"

ironically the ones who are trying to argue this has nothing at all to do with race seem to me to be the ones that have diverted this thread into a race issue.
As I said - we all know not all priests - scout leaders, school teachers, nuns and Muslims are abusers! NO one has said that. But your talking to posters as if they have. Its odd.

Um Ok - one poster has lifted facts from an EDL website.

Nasty EDL but are the facts true or not - surely thats the issue?
I had no idea where it came from, it said a the bottom complied by the times and Sikh community!

If these acts were not perpetrated in the first place and these men kept their bits to themselves - there would be no list for anyone to compile.

Lillian I really don't think we should be basing our understanding of the many factors (as I agree there are many) at play on a tv drama, however good it is. Just because an issue is presented a certain way in a dramatisation of one part of a large problem, doesn't mean that is the definitive truth.

Of course we can talk about race. But it isn't the only issue at play.

You said this, Woodpigeon: "The reason the Three Girls didn't get the help they needed for so long, and the reason so many people are unaware of the scale of this problem (which is probably not helpful in preventing other children being abused) is that people have been scared to discuss and act on the issue for fear of being a branded a racist."

That isn't true. It is not the only reason. It's been explained to you repeatedly.