Three Girls (BBC 9pm)

[ASauvingnonADay]

Looking forward to watching this tonight. Feel it might be one to watch with your teenagers..

Because it wasn't a factor. When Holly first spoke to the police they didn't say they disn't refuse to prosecute or even follow it up properly for fear of being being racist they refused to do so because they didn't believe what she was saying - why would she get back in a car with a man who raped her? Social services thought she was a prostitute - no one was saying they didn't want to appear racist. Let's be honest, even her own parents couldn't believe what she was telling them to start with.

Is a fact not a fact if it comes from the wrong source? That is a really odd view, but I hear it more and more. People don't argue with the substance of arguments, they judge on the basis of who said it. Not at all logical.

Do you think that the cases on that list are not real and that the links are not links to real articles?

Lillian Please can you point me in the direction of sources of information on this issue which you consider to be acceptable for me to use?

That isn't true. It is not the only reason. It's been explained to you repeatedly

Yes, and I have several times since clarified that I was wrong to say that, and that I am aware it is a much more complicated issue.

Because it wasn't a factor. When Holly first spoke to the police they didn't say they disn't refuse to prosecute or even follow it up properly for fear of being being racist they refused to do so because they didn't believe what she was saying - why would she get back in a car with a man who raped her? Social services thought she was a prostitute - no one was saying they didn't want to appear racist. Let's be honest, even her own parents couldn't believe what she was telling them to start with

Lillian It's a tv programme, a dramatisation, of the story of three girls which the BBC need to be commended for making and showing. It is not a documentary or an inquiry, or evidence. It does not give the full story of all the abuse that went on, and I'm sure the programme makers wouldn't pretend it does.

People don't argue with the substance of arguments, they judge on the basis of who said it

I agree.

I was astounded by The lists posted by Stones. I was gob smacked. Then someone said it was from the EDL so I thought that may mean it was made up or exaggerated, or the quotes were not true.

I did click on a number of links and they go back to the BBC etc, they are true.

I am just thinking of what some posters are trying to here that race had no bearing on the taking forward of this - and why on earth they would try and claim this when its there in black and white. I have to repeat the caveat - not the whole reason by any means but a reason nonetheless.

I read about a case of FGM In the Times a long time ago ( last year probably). A Judge let off parents who had mutilated their DD because it was their culture and thats what they did.

By doing that the Judge has created a two tier system that says to Asian girls " You don't matter, you can live under a different law here because your Asian, we will allow your parents to mutilate you" where as girls of other nationalities - their parents will be prosecuted.

We also know there is massive problems with Asian girls in some communities being failed by the police, for all sorts of reasons, no cultural understanding not talking to the girls properly etc.

Its like - we know there are sensitivities across the board where race is concerned, and yet on this case - with all these people involved for some bizarre reason some posters want to claim it wasn't an issue.

As if the people of this town and all the others drank a special water to absolve them of thinking of race sensitivity.

This is a program about a huge scandal involving asian sex gangs. That's the plain truth. It's a particular scenario. And if you don't treat it as such then you can't understand it or try to prevent it happening.
Anyway besides that, Lisa Riley was bloody brilliant and normally I'm not a fan.

Lillian Please can you point me in the direction of sources of information on this issue which you consider to be acceptable for me to use? You could start here which is a very interesting interview with Sara Rowbotham on. Woman's Hour. When she is asked if she thinks racism was a factor in the police being slow off the mark with the investigation she replies "I don't honestly think it was" and then goes on to elaborate. Very interesting piece.

Lillian It's a tv programme, a dramatisation

yes perhaps this is where misunderstanding is coming from. At the time I did much reading about the case and watched the documentaries about it. I am not solely relying on the TV show.

But well done BBC for showing it. Talking about all this is a good thing, we must keep these issues alive.

I think there's a lot of arguing the toss occurring here.

I haven't accused anyone of being racist, I certainly haven't made out that saying that it was Asian Muslim men were the offenders is racist, nor have I suggested that it's racist to state that there is a problem in the exploration of groups of Asian Muslim men exploiting vulnerable young girls. In fact I've repeated these facts myself - it is a problem and evident the profile of a man who is in a explotation group.

Listing cases off an EDL website isn't the way to go. They do have a racist agenda and simply will not list any cases involving white men (and it does occur). Might as well list off reasons off a Muslim extremist website as to why there's isn't a problem that there's so many of these groups of men.

I can't quite grasp what any poster that's arguing against me thinks I'm trying to prove? Care to enlighten me?

In Rotherham there was a factor that being accused of racism, and yes there's a lot of groups exploiting vunrable being revealed who are Asian and Muslim.

But there is always a factor that allows this abuse to occur and carry on without conviction; be it race, wealth or standing in society.

What is overwhelming the reason is that the abused girls face is they are not listened to, not credible witnesses because of who they are: they have no worth and they made the choice and there's no proving otherwise regardless of who exploits them. There's always a factor, related to the men, that'll prevent justice that is the issue faced.

Fighting over what the 'factor is get no one anywhere. Ignoring that it occurs outside of the Rotherham profile gets no one anywhere too.

In reality there's two things that need to be tackled here.

They are in fact individual to each other but:

Girls and women need to be listened to, not not ignored or held accountable for their abuse because it's their 'lifestyle choice' and shouldn't need to fight against whatever 'factor' the group of men (or the individual man) has - be it race or power

The reason why theres an type that regularly fits a certain profile of man or men: why are there are so many Asian Muslims exploring girls in groups and how can it be prevented.

Vunrable children will never be safe until both these situations are tackled and resolved.

Proof that girls are still being ignored when they report issues with sex grooming gangs.

www.shariawatch.org.uk/?q=content/story-barrow-police-ignoring-girls-complaint-about-probable-grooming-gangs

If I believed for a moment that the EDL gave a shut about these girls, I would have less of an issue with their reports being linked to. But they really don't, this is just fuel for their racist fire. Were these Asian girls being abused, that list wouldn't exist.

Tizzy I agree with your post of 15.05.

Lilllian Thanks for the link to the interview, I will listen later.

Do you (or does anyone else) know of any acceptable source for information on say, all the cases in the UK of grooming/child sexual exploitation which have been prosecuted during 2016 and 17?

Do you (or does anyone else) know of any acceptable source for information on say, all the cases in the UK of grooming/child sexual exploitation which have been prosecuted during 2016 and 17?

Sorry, that should read "...gang/ring grooming/child sexual exploitation...."

I think social division that exists, generally, causes problems in tackling this type of crime.

The child victims have been 'othered' as some kind of underclass, who are not to be believed, who are unreliable and beyond help.

The perpetrators belong to a group who protect each other, have connections to many others in it her cities and who must have been protected by the communities they live amongst. If their communities had not turned 'a blind eye', and I think they must have, as the children were hanging around the takeaways, jumping into taxis, in full public view, then even if the children were deemed 'unreliable witnesses' more questions would have been asked.

I think many types of close knit groups and those who are essentially 'outcasts' fit these profiles - not just the ones which are illustrated in the case the program explores.

'Other' not 'it her'. Typo.

If I believed for a moment that the EDL gave a shut about these girls, I would have less of an issue with their reports being linked to. But they really don't, this is just fuel for their racist fire. Were these Asian girls being abused, that list wouldn't exist

But it wasn't an edl report linked too.

The court cases and information existed first it was seemingly either brought under one umbrella on the EDL link OR it was already complied somewhere else and the easiest place to google and find is is the EDL link.

Perhaps posters ignore links on here but its been made clear by several groups that there is a stigma around reporting abuse from Asian communities and it needs to stop, and that Asian girls are not immune from abuse either. By shutting down talking about it - your trapping asian girls too.

I'm not 'shutting down talking about it'. I'm pointing out that EDL's motivation is not about protecting girls, it's about demonising Muslims.

will not list any cases involving white men (and it does occur)

This is what confuses me, who has said white men dont abuse, we have already - listed saville, priests, nuns, school teacher and scout leaders....

Who do you think on this thread as said " only asian men rape"?

We are talking about a TV program - which involves an asian sex gang.

If this was a program about priests abusing we would be talking about - well, priests abusing.

If this was a program about scout leaders abusing or white men abusing in thailand - we would be talking about - scout leaders or white men in thailand.

You seem terrified and keep labouring this point but its not just Asian men. I just don't see why. In this case it was Asian men.

But there is always a factor that allows this abuse to occur and carry on without conviction; be it race, wealth or standing in society

yes agreed and in savilles case, and the high profile abuse cases, that is looked into and hopefully people learn lessons, in this case it was race not wealth. SO, we look at the race element which is what posters have been saying and you seem to not want to factor in. You keep repeating its about girls in court?

Fighting over what the 'factor is get no one anywhere

I am sorry but what the factors are in each case are certainly extremely pertinent.

It was extremely important to understand why Saville was given keys to assylums, and was allowed so much access to young vulnerable patients it was extremely important to look at the affect his power and status had.....so it will never happen again.

Its extremely pertinent to look at the power and hidden circles in MP abuse cases, Cyril Smith etc, to make sure it never happens again.
But people being cowed by the perps being asian in this case - is something you want to discount because it doesnt matter>?

It may not matter to you but it matters to the people who complied the Jay report, the documentaries and all the numerous article about it since, all factors must be looked at.

Ignoring that it occurs outside of the Rotherham profile gets no one anywhere too

Who is ignoring it? Are you missing the reference to the priests abusing I have mentioned many times now. You do know catholic priests have been accused and convicted of child abuse don't you> Maybe when I say priests because you do not know this you don't understand that I am at least bring in other areas where abuse has been rife. I have mentioned Nuns, again are you aware of the Magdalen laundries scandal? Are you aware of rich white business men going to places like Thailand to abuse dc or the worst one was a charity worker in thailand using his status to abuse?

Maybe you are not aware of all these cases, which is why you are perhaps glossing over references to them. Because it seems pretty damn obvious to me its all around us from many areas.

And in this case we are talking about asian sex abuse rings.

Yes Jiggly and - we all know that don't we?

Does everyone agree the EDL is a nasty horrid organization? Any poster on here support them?

Government report into 'Child sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming'. : www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/68i.pdf

There's a section on race which begins on page 52. Well worth a read

2nd episode harrowing. And even more soul destroying. Knowing that police, social workers, CPS failed these girls again and again and again.

SS took her baby? And yes the drinking was obviously a concern. But no one cared to look deeper as to why she was drinking. The damage. The police weren't bothered, only that she now wasn't a creditable witness. The father saying that parents would apply themselves to get her child returned. Useless. Bet that went well. So wrong.

I have no faith in the justice system. Not just this case, but many before it, leave you disillusioned that justice will ever be achieved.

Sally Clarke, Hilsborough etc etc, innumerable miscarriages of justice that just make me do very sad.

Liked peake telling blonde copper where to go. Good acting.
And blonde copper at the end saying that Amber should be used. Good acting.

Roses might be an idea to stop arguing over nothing; also you're simply saying what I said as an argument against what I said.

The EDL data is trying to suggest this is an Asian Muslim problem by not listing any groups paedophiles in their 'data'. Have they listed the group that included raping a toddler?

Also I've mentioned priests too - so yes I know about that.

And no we're not exclusively discussing Asian sex rings: many of us are discussing why these girls are ignored and not considered credible, and are therefore so vulnerable to sexual exploitation (by anyone).

This is may be why you might be getting confused?

How patronising Tizzy.

I have followed a number of very high profile sex abuse scandals and there were extensive long running threads on the MP's, Cyril smith, and this :en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_Guest_House_claims_and_controversy

People on those threads which went on for weeks, talked about those issues mainly, that of high profile people incl politicians here and in Belgium etc abusing dc.

I don't recall on any of those threads people coming on to repeatedly say " asian men, men from Africa , Arabia abuse too" over and over. Because the threads were mainly about those issues being those men involved high profile men.
If you want a broader discussion why not start a thread about it, because talking about a TV Program about asian gangs is going to lead to conversation about that.

Your making a lot of strange presumptions here and it seems to me more than anything else on this thread, the only thing that has moved and upset you is one poster, who has either wittingly or unwittingly linked to data from an EDL site.