Three Girls (BBC 9pm)

[ASauvingnonADay]

Looking forward to watching this tonight. Feel it might be one to watch with your teenagers..

The reason the girls weren't listened to wasn't because the men were Asian or because they were Muslim.

Where the cries of racism occur is when the fact that it is in the majority that it is Asian Muslim men that operate in the rings.

The agenda Stones is on is attempting to raise hatred about Asians as they are the abusers. Go ahead look at the EDL website with it's 'facts' that show how all cases of group abuse is by Asians.

There was a paedophile ring in 2015 consisting of white men. Is that listed? Did you read that when you where educating yourself WoodPigeonInFlight? You're being silly and reactive and Stones agenda has worked on you.

At no point have I claimed that these rings are a problem and in majority Asian Muslims (in fact I've repeated it a lot) but there are also girls not listened to and brushed off who are abused by white men. Denying that is a problem.

WoodPigeon - I am dubious about anyone who uses the EDL website as a legitimate source of information. And that includes you. I don't believe for a moment that ChildrenoftheStones couldn't remember where that information came from either.

"The reason the Three Girls didn't get the help they needed for so long, and the reason so many people are unaware of the scale of this problem (which is probably not helpful in preventing other children being abused) is that people have been scared to discuss and act on the issue for fear of being a branded a racist."

No, that isn't the reason. The reason is much more complex than that. It is (as the writer of Three Girls was at pains to point out when I heard her interviewed the other day) about how girls and young women are disbelieved, how women and girls are divided into good girls and bad girls and ultimately about how society think girls don't really matter. There are two separate issues here: one is the issue of the men who think it's acceptable to treat men like this and the second is the fact that society thought (and still thinks to an extent) that it perfectly okay for that to happen.

The fact that you and Children are trying to make this all about race (and that reaction to any discussion of Saville made that abundantly clear) means you have an agenda. And not a nice one.

I found last nights episode heartbreaking. I told my 17 year old Dd about it and she's watched it too. Will get her feedback when she gets up. The Rochdale abuse was one of her case studies for the exam she is sitting tomorrow.

I agree it sounds a bit shifty that Children couldn't work out where the blog was from!! But is it true.

Are those the actual things the Judges said time and time again - no remorse no remorse.....white slags etc.

The reason the girls weren't listened to wasn't because the men were Asian or because they were Muslim

I strongly disagree here again, we need to know whether what was said in those quotes was true because at least once one abuser said someone was being racist and the case was dropped.

The men being Asian was certainly a factor in the whole case in among all the reasons the girls were listened too. Its pretty obvious what they were up agaisnt.

I wish the Sexual health worker could be given some proper honour for her work. Victoria Beckhem gets a badge and honor for making dresses with huge talented team behind her and this lady who saved lives, changed attitudes and changed things get diddly squat

It wasn't the reason though RoseandVioletCreams.

Who or what the men are is wrapped up in it certainly, as when the abuser is a well know celebrity "he wouldn't"; a respected member of the community "youre tryinf to disrepet him!"; or a priest "a man of god!".

Overridingly it's the opinion of what the abused women and girls that is the reason.

What the men are is just another excuse.

Undoubtedly too the fact that there is a type of group grommer and abuser needs to be recognised but not to the detriment of other abused girls and women.

I just think this agenda business can go both ways.

This is a program about a huge scandal involving asian sex gangs.

There is no getting round this - you may have posters with an agenda who want to drag in the EDL but at the same time, surely posters who want to drown out the significance of the race element here also have an agenda.

I didnt say it was the whole reason Tizzy, I said "The men being Asian was certainly a factor" which it was and we know that now.

A factor means one of the reasons.

I have to say I am wondering if your a poster with your own agenda here.

I just think this agenda business can go both ways

This ^

Yes i do. My agenda is let's not make this out to be about race and so mask the main reason adolescent girls are not listen to.

Do you think I'm trying to pretend there isn't group's of Asian Muslims sexually exploiting girls? Or that we shouldn't mention it? I've actually said it is a problem and repeatedly mentioned it.

Using this fact as a reason to hate Muslims isn't going to help anyone. That's the EDLs reason for putting together the list. It's not to educate.

The reason the girls weren't listened to wasn't because the men were Asian or because they were Muslim

Please read the enquiry reports and see if you still believe this.

Where the cries of racism occur is when the fact that it is in the majority that it is Asian Muslim men that operate in the rings

I'm not sure what you mean here, can you rephrase please?

The agenda Stones is on is attempting to raise hatred about Asians as they are the abusers. Go ahead look at the EDL website with it's 'facts' that show how all cases of group abuse is by Asians

You don't know what stone's agenda is. You are making a lot of assumptions. No, the EDL website doesn't claim that all group abuse is by Asians. Please quote where it says that.

There was a paedophile ring in 2015 consisting of white men. Is that listed? Did you read that when you where educating yourself WoodPigeonInFlight? You're being silly and reactive and Stones agenda has worked on you

I am trying to find out about more recent cases because I am particularly interested in the national press coverage, or lack of. Yes I am quite aware there are white paedophile gangs, I don't know why you would suggest I am not. Please tell me what my agenda is?

At no point have I claimed that these rings are a problem and in majority Asian Muslims (in fact I've repeated it a lot) but there are also girls not listened to and brushed off who are abused by white men. Denying that is a problem

Where have I denied this? Where did stones deny this?

A lot of what you are doing is making assumptions about what other posters believe or do and then using your false assumptions to slur them. This is a well worn tactic to shut down debate on unacceptable topics.

But who has said they hate muslims or that all muslims are doing this?

It is obviously a big problem though Tizzy, this isn't an isolated one off incident is it?

Now your implying that its turning into hate muslims thing

I believe a huge report was done after this and race was certainly a factor, people involved were worried about the race of the perps and didn't want to be seen to be racist by pursuing it.

Its glaringly obvious that also - the girls were deemed to be making their own "lifestyle" choices....white trash, etc etc etc etc thats obvious and so is the fact the men were Asian and some people involved didn't want to react because of this.

I think the pertinent fact is that these abusers were part of their own large tight knit group, protecting, covering for and defending each other.

You get abuses in other tight knit groups too. The religious community (RC priests for example), those surrounding celebrity. The powerful tight knit group, that protects 'it's own', above all else, is the pertinent factor.

And discrimination against the whole group, when some within it have committed terrible acts, is always a risk, when those groups protect their members rather than stopping their group harming others.

YY very good point clarity.

WoodPigeon - I am dubious about anyone who uses the EDL website as a legitimate source of information. And that includes you. I don't believe for a moment that ChildrenoftheStones couldn't remember where that information came from either.

So as I say, I have been trying to find out about recent cases to look at the press coverage. So if I look at an EDL website, that somehow makes me a dubious person does it? Why is that? I use it to find cases and then look at the original sources. Have the EDL forged the local press and BBC reports? If you can suggest some other sources of information, that would be great.

Perhaps stones couldn't remember (as above she did c&p a year ago). Or perhaps she wanted to avoid this derail. You don't know which, but you are happy to slur.

The reason the Three Girls didn't get the help they needed for so long, and the reason so many people are unaware of the scale of this problem (which is probably not helpful in preventing other children being abused) is that people have been scared to discuss and act on the issue for fear of being a branded a racist

No, that isn't the reason. The reason is much more complex than that. It is (as the writer of Three Girls was at pains to point out when I heard her interviewed the other day) about how girls and young women are disbelieved, how women and girls are divided into good girls and bad girls and ultimately about how society think girls don't really matter. There are two separate issues here: one is the issue of the men who think it's acceptable to treat men like this and the second is the fact that society thought (and still thinks to an extent) that it perfectly okay for that to happen

There are many reasons, I agree. Fear of being called a racist is one of many reasons.

The fact that you and Children are trying to make this all about race (and that reaction to any discussion of Saville made that abundantly clear) means you have an agenda. And not a nice one

And round the circle we go again. This issue has not been discussed properly for years. Now anyone who wants to discuss it (as in abuse by Asian gangs) " and who points out that there are reasons why it is not being discussed which are to do with race, "has an agenda, and not a nice one" and round again.

There have been too many scandals of this nature as discussed, Saville, priests, nuns etc, if its a problem within the church which it majorly has been, surely the church has to own it - to make it right which I believe it is trying to do.

Apologizing to victims, trying to root out and deal with bad priests? Same with the BBC and places where saville ran riot.

There are issues clearly within the asian community, if they dont own them and admit it - how on earth is this ever going to have a chance of getting better?

I do remember a long time ago a documentary about this from the side of the girls not being listened too and I remember there was also an Asian women's group, formed for abused, Asian ladies. A spokesperson said something like " you have to remember if a man is being abusive elsewhere its not a wild stretch to think he isn't also being abusive in his own home" An abuser is an abuser.

And I do have an agenda. My agenda is that I want us to deal with sexual abuse and paedophilia the same whatever the race or religion of the perpetrators.

I want the police to pursue the criminals in the same way whatever the race or religion of the perpetrators. It seems that the police are now doing this, from the huge numbers of cases which have been prosecuted and are going through the courts and I think we should commend them for this.

I want the press to report on crimes equally whatever the race or religion of the criminals. I don't believe this is happening, at least in some of the national press. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong on this. It is a long process trying to find out whether my belief is true or not.

I want our society to face up to these crimes whatever the race or religion of the criminals. I don't believe this is happening, partly because of the lack of national press coverage.

Perhaps I am wrong but there do seem to be a lot of people who think this is a historic problem and we can all say "how awful Rochdale and Rotherham were" but are not aware of what is still happening.

Is this a "not nice agenda"? Is it wrong to want girls to be protected equally whatever the race or religion of their abuser? Does this make me some sort of right-wing extremist?

WoodPigeonInFlight Thu 18-May-17 09:28:49

I agree. And I think there has to be some inward looking soul searching when things like this happen or how on earth can we ever stop it?

I think another pertinent factor is that this group of girls were 'othered' more than anyone else. Are still. Treated as damaged and thus unreliable - unbelievable. This is a problem as soon as anyone is regarded as vulnerable, their integrity is questioned. It is why abuses have continued for far too long in care homes and within mental institutions.

YY clarity and care homes etc are too vulnerable to attack

I wonder if any of these girls got compensation for what happened to them, and being let down by so many services?

I was going to NC but I haven't in all the years I've been on mumsnet,

I live in the south, and at 14 myself and my friends were groomed by a group of Asian men. I was the only girl out of our group that can say she came out of the situation undamaged.

We are all still friends but no one ever talks about that part of our lives because some of the girls from our group were drugged and rapped by the men we thought were are friends at the time.

Luckily at the time of 1st meeting the men, the alpha male of their group feel in love with me, I was the girl that non of the Asians could ever get their hands on, so when the leader of the gang, also the youngest he was 18 I was 14, feel for me I found him very possessive, would say 'your mine'. At the time I just wanted to do what my girl friends were doing but he kept me away, and NOW I know why, he must of known all along what those men were like and what was going to happen.

None of the men where ever convicted for the rape but I did find out a few years later they were convicted for raping anouther 13yr.

I've tried to watch the new program but I can't get past 20mins in because they have portrayed our life's perfectly, even tho nothing ever happened to me, I still can't watch it because it did to my friends and it could of to me.

They used to try and separate us like they did in the 1st episode, one did try to with me and I jumped out of the window. At the time my friends were all laughing at me doing it but i just knew something wasn't right.

The reason 'we are here' is because vulnerable young girls from the wrong class are not believed because they are slags and not particularly important. This is it in a nutshell - it's not because the grooming gangs are Asian (although it's true the vast majority are). As was pointed out in the programme girls like this are hit by a double whammy - the very qualities that lead grooming gangs to target them in the first place i.e. the fact that they have chaotic lives and are seen as somehow lesser people because they are drinking and having sex - are the same qualities which lead to them deemed unreliable witnesses who will be disbelieved by juries. In fact this is the case in almost all trial for sexual offences - whether or not you are likely to get a prosecution depends on the quality of the victim. It's just one step up from asking whether a rape victim was asking for it because she was dressed provocatively or because she went back to someone's house for a drink. Police weren't reluctant to prosecute because they thought a jury would be too right on to convict a Muslim gang, but because they thought a jury wouldn't believe a bunch of white slags (which is how the defence would portray the victims). Who the offenders are is immaterial - it's the victims who are the problem.

Thinking about what happened in the 60s and 70s with Jimmy Saville and and other showbiz celebrities, but also with council home cover-ups, in those cases I think you could argue prosecutions weren't made because of who the perpetrators were - people in authority to whom a jury may very well give the benefit of the doubt. Victims weren't believed then because no one could believe it of the perpetrators. With Asian grooming gangs, police and social workers could see and believe it was happening, but didn't believe (or didn't believe they could prove) the victims weren't complicit. It's not the same thing at all. I think the difference now is that society as has changed so much that we no longer find it hard to believe or be persuaded that a 13-year-old girl would be happy to have sex with taxi-drivers three times her age for a few kebabs and a bottle of vodka.

It is the same reason Jimmy Salville's victims such as girls who were groupies, or in probation hostels. These men are not stupid. They pick on girls who they think won't be believed.

So sorry Candlefairy to hear that.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/27/race-rotherham-abuse-scandal-pakistani-community

This ^^ is an interesting article.

"It was there that a white social worker accused me of being racist for wanting to ask British Pakistani girls about abuse"

Again evidence of SW calling someone out wrongly of being racist.

"That attitude seems connected to the strange hierarchy of rights exposed by a key finding in the Rotherham report: that police and council officers were widely felt to be playing down strong evidence of sexual abuse, mostly against girls, for fear of upsetting community relations"

"She told me how she had found herself the only woman at a post-riot “community relations” meeting where, she claimed, community leaders asked the police to pass any complaints of domestic violence from Pakistani women straight to them. They would “sort it” themselves. The worker said she challenged this, but felt that if she hadn’t been there the police would have agreed.

It is this attitude – a “bullying and macho” deal-making culture involving the local authority and the male, self-appointed leadership of the Pakistani Muslim community – that the Rotherham report pinpointed. Did a fear of losing votes also influence council (in)action over the years in towns with large Muslim populations?

"The victims weren’t only white girls, but the police and council focus on talking only to older male Muslims meant they weren’t aware of this. Women and girls living on their own were being targeted by Pakistani landlords and forced into sex with other men, afraid to report their abuse for fear of social stigma. The report found: “One of the local Pakistani women’s groups described how Pakistani-heritage girls were targeted by taxi drivers and on occasion by older men lying in wait outside school gates at dinner times and after school.”
“But as a society we are still disbelieving young girls, turning a blind eye, calling it racism, calling it all sorts of other things, but not dealing with the issue head on.

It then goes onto say the attitudes towards the girls was also key. Of course it is/was, but its not the whole picture. Its about wider attitudes towards women.

Zlakha Ahmed, from the organisation Apna Haq which supports Asian women and children facing violence in the home, said there has been a long-standing problem of Asian girls suffering abuse

Another interesting article, the abuse is not limited to white girls as I stated in one post above.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28951612

This also mentions young Asian girls being targeted as well