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Lassies of Lallybroch part 2.....SPOILERS

999 replies

Drywhitethanks · 21/09/2016 21:22

Because we can't wait until next year for season 3. Highbrow discussion of Jamie's knees, hair and anything else Outlander

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AKAmyself · 22/09/2017 13:03

Really nice review here: popwrapped.com/outlander-03x02-surrender-recap-

AKAmyself · 22/09/2017 13:14

that's interesting, lessstressed. the J/G thing is a mess of motives, control, power, threats etc. G has all the power of her position and social standing and all the threats that she's laying upon J's head... but J has the physical power and I think that cannot be underplayed... once things get going, so to speak, I do believe it is Jamie who has the upper hand. Consent is very very dubious on both sides - you can also argue that G didn't really know what she was asking for. I always read that scene as J asserting control at the end in the only way available to him.

Regardless - I thought despite the clumsy way DG handled it (actually that's not true - i think the ambiguity of that scene was well done, but she should let everyone of her readers make up their minds rather than intervene so heavy handedly and patronisingly to "explain" herself) it was a pivotal episode in Jamie's life and in his character arc.

Jamie is a loving, generous, loyal, brave (etc etc etc) man, but he is by no means perfect and while he has suffered a lot, he has also of course made many mistakes during his life (though the biggest and most damaging one is surely to do with Roger), which make him so well rounded and human and surely one of the reasons we love him so much as a character.

I find it fascinating that all of Jamie's "mistakes" (Ian, Willie, Fergus, Roger etc etc) are so close to him emotionally and such constant reminders of his humanity and vulnerability. While Claire gets to leave her crap in the past (or rather, in the future), Jamie can never escape what he has done.

Anyway it will be interesting to see how they choose to deal with it in the show!

Lessstressedhemum · 22/09/2017 18:34

Yes, he is a very flawed, human character who has to live always with the consequences of his choices. I always feel, as well, that a great many of his mistakes happen when he is trying to do the right thing, as he sees it (the Roger situation being a case in point.) it's like he can't do right for doing wrong.
Claire is, in some ways, much less human and, thus, less relatable, at least as far as I can see. She gets to leave a lot of her mistakes behind and a lot more of them have consequences for other people, like the situation that led to Jamie belting her referred to above. That could have negatively impacted on their entire party. Her big mouth and strong headedness get her into bother from which she requires to be rescued all the time.
As for DG, I actually don't think she comes across very well at all. I don't like her public persona very much, if I am honest. I just don't understand the worship she gets and I find her very patronising.

gamerwidow · 22/09/2017 19:12

With regards to DG I'm grateful for the books and I enjoy them but there are other writers who I really admire like Margaret Atwood or Hilary Mantel who come across as much more thoughtful interesting women.

JuneFromBethesda · 22/09/2017 19:33

Am I the last lassie to watch the episode? I have choir rehearsals on Monday nights (dammit!) and so far have been too knackered the rest of the week to give it my proper attention - finally got time this evening.

Oh my goodness. I loved it. I don't want to jinx it but I do think S3 is shaping up to be the best yet. I cried twice! SH's acting was amazing, so was that final scene between Jamie and Jenny when she turns him in ... so poignant. And Jamie and Mrs McNab in the cave, and the tear rolling down his cheek ....waaahhhh. I also love Fergus' French-accent-with-a-wee-lacing-of-Scots Grin

I was thinking as I was watching this one, the reason the whole story works so well is that once you get that initial preposterousness of her time-travelling out of the way, it's actually all about relationships - being with one person when you love someone else, losing the love of your life, making sacrifices and heartbreaking choices for the sake of the person/people you love. Personally I think the tv writers, and the actors, have done DG a huge service by improving on her material - they've managed to take what's good from the books, and leave out most of the nonsense.

Poor Jamie. Smut aside, I just wanted to give him a big hug Sad

JuneFromBethesda · 22/09/2017 19:36

As for the debate about reading the books first, or not, I watched S1 and S2 having not read the books, and greatly enjoyed them, and was surprised by the various twists and turns. I've just about finished Voyager and am enjoying S3 every bit as much, possibly a bit more, even though I know what's coming. So for me, I'm not sure it makes a difference.

Sort of like finding out the sex of your child before it's born, versus at birth. We found out beforehand with our first child, but opted not to with our second - it was nice both ways!

AKAmyself · 22/09/2017 20:28

I love your optimism re season 3, June, but we have all the silliness with the ships to look forward to...

DryWhiteagainW · 22/09/2017 20:41

Really interesting about j v c and consequences of their actions.
I've read the books. When you talk about his cock up with Roger are you meaning mistaking him for B'a rapist, grandfather bing to native Americans and young Ian's sad story as a result of the rescue attempt? How is J awful to Roger? I always assumed that initially he was wary because he's B's father and a bit jealous , eventually he's good to R or I totally missing the point?

Agree that DG just seems a bit smug to me and liking the adulation a bit too much

CourtneyLoveIsMySpiritAnimal · 22/09/2017 20:44

I love your optimism re season 3, June, but we have all the silliness with the ships to look forward to...

Grin

I have faith in the producers. They cut all that daftness about wolves and magic sex pools out of book 1, don’t forget. I’m sure they’ll work their magic on season 3.

breadwidow · 22/09/2017 20:56

Agh found my people on mumsnet. Not read the books (dipped a bit into the first after watching) but recently binge watched season 1 & 2 and now watching 3 as it arrives (so slow after binging) & can confirm that as someone said up thread JAMMF has basically taken my soul and will probably ruin all men for me forever Wink

GreatWhites · 22/09/2017 21:14

Is Mr Willoughby in the programme? I hope not. That storyline was one of the book's real WTAF moments for me.

The ship stuff really is just stupid, as is the SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS G.D. reappearing and the death cave nonsense.

I mostly love the domestic parts of the books- Lallybroch and Fraser's Ridge.

AKAmyself · 22/09/2017 21:21

yes, GreatWhites, completely agree. I love the Fraser's Ridge sections so much

JuneFromBethesda · 22/09/2017 21:40

The silliness with the ships - yes, you're absolutely right - there's a reason why I raced through the first two-thirds of Voyager but have yet to finish the last bit Grin

DryWhiteagainW · 22/09/2017 22:08

Think Mr W is in this series.

Loved the Fraser ridge part

Lessstressedhemum · 22/09/2017 22:22

Mr Willoughby is in. I think his arc is quite interesting. He's another of Jamie's can't do right for doing wrong things. His story is another dimension to the identity theme. The further away from Scotland he gets, the more he reclaims his actual identity until he finally reclaims it when he saves Claire. It's also a wee story about prejudice, which I think is quite interesting when you think about the amount of discrimination the Scots faced from the English and the highlanders at the hands of the lowlands.
Yes, it's the whole beating Roger and giving him to the Indians. The consequences of that wee episode were very far reaching and affected Jamie's relationships with everyone from Brianna to jenny.

GreatWhites · 22/09/2017 22:35

I wonder if they'll change Jamie's reaction to Brianna. He was really a bit of a bastard to her, although probably it is more accurate for a 17th century Catholic to be a bit pissed off about the whole thing.

DryWhiteagainW · 23/09/2017 09:08

But I hope their meeting is the same....will we see it this season?

LonelyOversharer · 23/09/2017 12:39

We'll know if the cave nonsense is in it if we see Claire handling the skull, it's the last Boston bit. But it has to be, as it's where they rescue Ian, why they go to the Indies in the first place. Good. GD is the only one who annoys me beyond measure, in books and screen although the actress is good

Monday fast approaching guys...

I also want need to find out how they spin J actually marrying L. As in the screen version he knows it was her who set Claire up. In the books he didn't.

So much material for the writers to wade through. Are we going to get the mad vicar who loves his flock, and Claire gallivanting around in a monks habit? And then Jamie turns up after taking over a platoon of soldiers overnight??? The more I think about it, the more far fetched it all is. Yet we all buy and devour her books

womanbehavingbadly · 23/09/2017 12:41

Ooooh can I join? Currently reading Drums of Autumn.

Lessstressedhemum · 23/09/2017 13:08

I love Father Fogden, he is hilarious, although a bit of a dubious character. Cant marry a man without a cockGrin.

its the ship business that burns my biscuits, jumping overboard holding some crates, and then the Swedish goat woman pushing Jamie overboard to swim to Hispaniola, really?Hmm

I think they will handle Jamie marrying Laoghaire by playing to his PTSD and despair. in the book he doesn't really want to do it, he is kind of pushed along by Jenny's plans. And he really needs to be needed and to find some sort of place in the world. It's actually tragic for both of them

AKAmyself · 23/09/2017 15:09

Reading your comments I realise I must have skimmed through 2/3 of voyager Blush

AKAmyself · 23/09/2017 15:11

One more thing about last weeks episode I thought of this morning! (I promise I do think about other stuff... occasionally).

The difference between the Jamie of Claire's fantasies memories, so carefree and young and warm... and the actual life Jamie is living... mute, haunted, cold.

Omg I made myself cry!!!!

GreatWhites · 23/09/2017 17:16

I take it spoilers are completely ok on this thread?

The scene with the wedding at Father Fogden's is funny, the rest of the crap preceding it is tiresome. Plus all the weird bit about Claire accidentally buying a slave, which all seemed to come to nothing unless I skipped that bit.

Jamie needs to marry L (can't spell it). He seems determined not to say Claire's name to anyone so I think that's how they'll get round it- he can't explain to Jenny so she'll bully him into it.

DryWhiteagainW · 23/09/2017 17:41

AKAmy I skimmed well too...can't remember any of those bits or have I just blocked them out?

Watching ep1 and 2, seeing references to other shows. GOT when we first meet Charles Dance as Lanister Dad he's skinning and carving up a stag, similar to J. And then at Culloden when BJR and J eventually spot and run towards each other, the shot where they jump and clash swords is identical to a shot in Vikings when Ragnar and Rolo meet in Paris on the river. I'm a geek

JuneFromBethesda · 23/09/2017 18:14

Reading your comments I realise I must have skimmed through 2/3 of voyager

I was just thinking how well some of you know the books - I can't remember half of these details (and I only started reading Voyager two months ago Blush ). Although I suppose I've watched the shows so many times, for me the tv version has overridden what happens in the books.

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