GAME OF THRONES Season 4

[TulipOHare]

About a week and a half to go

Who's watching?

Some trailers to keep us going:

Are you GRRM?

Mike, that's a popular theory but nobody really knows. GRRM's characters are all a bit schrodingeresque and he definitely could be alive, though it's heavily suggested he died at the hands of meryn trant etc.

'the typically medieval world view that ugly=bad'

I'm just going to leave this question mark here.

(To be fair, fairly sure George Martin does believe this is a typical medieval world view.)

I'm just starting the third book and really enjoying seeing the differences (don't worry, not about to spoiler), but it's impossible not to see them with the faces of the TV characters which is annoying! But I'm really appreciating how much plot skill the TV writers have - everything they've rearranged has been ramping up the tension. I think it's really clever. The dialogue is brilliant in the books, though.

Is it more complicated than that LRD? Or am I just flat out wrong on that one?

Agree about the rearrangements. I've read all the books now and am watching the 3rd series and it is just fab, even better than the first two.

I'm having the same problem with the faces, which I don't mind except with characters like Tyrion and the Hound who aren't as ugly/damaged on tv as in the books. And Arya to some extent - no-one could ever call the actress horse-faced.

I was just being faintly arsey, sorry.

It is more complicated. I expect George Martin thinks it isn't. I also find it slightly confusing working out what he thinks about good and evil. It seems sort of disjointed. I thought it was interesting as well that it matters so much in the books that Jaime and Cersei look alike.

I find Arya difficult too - but I do like that (to my anyway), she and Jon do have fairly similar-shaped faces and you could believe they were related more than you could believe it of her and Sansa, which is quite nice.

It seems as if his viewpoint isn't so much 'ugly people are seen as evil and I challenge that' but 'beautiful people are shallow'.

I don't necessarily agree with that. Beautiful people seem to be more manipulative than shallow in the books.

Yes, that's true, manipulative is in there too - though Sansa isn't manipulative in the books (more so in the TV series?) and she's beautiful. I think Cersei comes across as shallower in the books than the TV, and certainly less cleverly manipulative.

Interesting about the ugly / beautiful thing.

If we consider as a group those characters noted for their physical beauty we have:

Cersei - cunning, ruthless, vindictive, self-interested, ambitious
Sansa - initially shallow and naive, but basically honourable and decent
Margaery - manipulative, ambitious, but as yet has not done anything very deplorable
Daenerys - has many admirable qualities, some small flaws but overwhelmingly "good"
Jaime - initially as Cersei, now undergoing a sea change
Loras Tyrell - largely unknown, no overtly despicable acts as yet
Rhaegar Targaryen - again not much is known, but does not seem to have been an evil bloke (cannot say much as this is a spoiler-free thread)
Joffrey (notably attractive in books) - evil, psychotic, no redeeming features
Melisandre - ruthless, but motives as yet unknown

So quite a mixed bag.

And those characters noted for their physical ugliness or deformity:

Tyrion - likeable, honourable, decent
The Hound - initially a thug, committed deplorable acts; was not sadistic; bitter, jaded and nihilistic; also showed sporadic signs of compassion, pity and kindness; possibly on some sort of redemptive path
Brienne of Tarth - extremely good, decent and honourable

So I am not sure that GRRM is saying anything in particular about a link, inverse or otherwise, between physical beauty and moral goodness unless it is simply that (to be trite) you can't judge a book by its cover

I think he might be being that trite. Which I don't intend as a criticism, because I think it's actually very rare anyone bothers to write novels that do that.

In the books, in the chapter with Davos's point of view, it does say explicitly that Melisandre isn't beautiful, but that people tend to be convinced she is?

Sorry to change the subject, I don't want to google in case I get spoilers but can anyone tell me what happend to Osha and Bran's little brother? I can't remember.

First of His Name:

Big reveal about who was behind the killing of Jon Arryn! Isn't that what caused Ned Stark to go to King's Landing in the first place?

The Hound: the worst mentor in the world? Or possibly the best...

Poor Sansa: forced engagements to unhinged young heirs can become tiresome.

This week saw the dispatch of a couple of evil buggers. DH said "Well that's two fewer people to worry about."

Lysa: aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh! It's the unpredictability that makes her so terrifying.

in the chapter with Davos's point of view, it does say explicitly that Melisandre isn't beautiful, but that people tend to be convinced she is

You know, I'd forgotten that. I do recall that she uses her pendant thingy to cast some sort of glamour, but I don't remember Davos seeing through it. It is a while since I read them or maybe her glamour worked on me too - but I think I would include her in the list anyway, since most people who see her find her beautiful and compelling to be around.

can anyone tell me what happend to Osha and Bran's little brother?

Osha and Rickon left for parts unknown...there have been hints in the books as to where they went / ended up, but it is not yet known for sure what's become of them. I can't remember what the TV version said about their intentions

I'll try to find the specific reference. But he says people think she's beautiful. She wasn't. She was red.

I skimmed it so I don't have the quotation in my mind.

Really enjoyed tonights episode. Felt like the first one in a while that had some real tension and moments.

Lyssa is so unpredictable it is quite uncomfortable to watch.

Just saw the trailer for next week's ep on throne cast. Looks like another good un.

I enjoyed tonight's almost Stark get together. Now the story can get back on track - Locke dead, Bran heading north again - but it added some interest to his story. Only thing I didn't like was Meera last week being a total idiot and getting them caught. She would not have been so stupid in the book.

Loved Cersei and Margaery having their little chat.

I don't think GRRM is making a link himself. I think his characters are making the link.
Tyrion is considered evil because of his deformity. So's the Hound.

Anyway good episode. I liked the dynamic of the Hound and Arya even though he's still on the list.

The Eyrie is so creepy. You feel that Sansa is going to miss King's Landing soon!

And TV Jon is growing on me. I was wondering if they were going to do a big brotherly reunion but they handled the scene beautifully and I felt quite choked up! There is a similar near miss scene in the book (although far different setting as the whole Craster's Keep siege doesn't happen). I thought they included it really well.

Poor Jon and Bran!

I thought Lysa was good, but I thought the episode as a whole was a bit disjointed.

I also thought Meera was out of character, not just in the books. It seemed odd.

Also - is this a stupid question? - but how come Bran can't do the warg thing with people other than Hodor? I get that the implication is Hodor not very bright, but surely he could take over people who are asleep and they'd be even less aware?!

I think he probably could, but has avoided doing so for moral/ethical reasons. He only wargged into Hodor as a last resort, and that had its price.

I'm not sure personally. He could probably enter their bodies while they're sleeping but when they wake up their consciousness would resist him.
I seem to remember in the book there are descriptions of how Hodor is quite pliable but even then hard to control.

Did anyone else notice the distinct lack of ad breaks? 'Twas possibly the best thing about that episode

Poor Sansa. The fire of mad-as-a-bag-of-snakes aunt Lyssa and her creepy new fiancé might soon make the frying pan of Kings Landing seem not so bad after all.

Thought the craster's keep scenes were fantastically executed.

How far has Tyrion's storyline got so far? (Just so I don't unwittingly post spoilers, because I'm not watching season 4 but I've read all the books.)

Tyrion is imprisoned, awaiting trial for Joffrey's murder.

Thanks!

Big reveal about who was behind the killing of Jon Arryn! Isn't that what caused Ned Stark to go to King's Landing in the first place?

So one could say that Littlefinger started the whole damn thing.