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Doctor Who Series 6 part 2 - the ganger thread

687 replies

RustyBear · 27/08/2011 09:21

Old thread's getting full, so here's a nice new acid-resistant one...

OP posts:
EdithWeston · 02/10/2011 10:20

TashHag - other species have pictures of all the Doctor's faces in their databases (I think we've seen it with both Cybermen and Daleks), so there are probably loads of ways River could have got hold of pictures of his precious faces.

"In the library she recognised DT...how?" - presumably because she is a TARDIS induced Time Lord. We know that Time Lords can always recognise each other, regardless of body: that was said by the Doctor to Martha when she was wondering how on earth he could find the Master on Earth.

That doesn't however explain why the doctor did not recognise River. The only thing I can think of is that River has not completed the Gallifrey Time Lords puberty rite of staring directly into the vortex, and so she does not have all of time in her head in quite the same way.

TashHag · 02/10/2011 10:31

Edith - yes, I'm sure River could have got pictures of all the Doctor's incarnations; that wasn't what I meant. What I meant was that presumably she hasn't actually met One to Nine, because if she had, Ten would have remembered her.

As to why River recognised Ten in the library, the implication is that she met the Ten incarnation after the Library (for him) but before it (for her). That would avoid any necessity for her to be a true Time Lord (in order to recognise him) therefore Ten wouldn't realise she was a Time Lord (because she wasn't)

Not sure how clear that is, but I can't work out how to say it better....

EdithWeston · 02/10/2011 10:49

TashHag: sorry, got in a twist.

We know she hadn't met 1-9, because she told 10 that this was the youngest she'd ever seen him. Which rather suggests that, as Time Lords don't appear to age, this was the first time in that body: making it his first encounter and her last. And it's always struck me that her importance is to 11 and onwards.

TashHag · 02/10/2011 11:00

But the bit about the last time she saw him he had a new suit sounds more like Ten than Eleven. And Eleven 'looks' younger than Ten, so maybe she wasn't referring strictly to looks.

EdithWeston · 02/10/2011 11:32

It wasn't looks - 10 told her he really wasn't young. It was something in the eyes, wasn't it?

AitchTwoOh · 02/10/2011 11:38

the faces of all the incarnations are in the blue book, aren't they?

SarahBumBarer · 02/10/2011 11:54

(PP* in last night's episode Amy made a comment to River along the line of it being ok for her because she is still running around with earlier incarnations of him and River confirmed this. Confused

But that does not work for me. My take has always been that River never met an incarnation before Ten. Although it is all time travel and so confusing it must be the case that reincarnations are kind of fixed points in the Doctor's own history such that each new incarnation has to be able to remember everything that the previous incarnations has done even if in a time sense the events take place in the future.

I have always understood the library to be Rivers last and the Doctors first encounter with each other (in fact I took this day as being River's "far worse day is coming for me" day being a day when the Doctor no longer recognises her). Indeed in their first few meetings which seem to be chronological for each of them (albeit reverse chronological for River) since he clearly does not know her very well she must know that it is not long for her before he does not know her at all and given how old he is, that has to mean that her death is imminent. However I think we are now at a point whereby they are interacting as true time travellers - is not really in any kind of order, hence the need for diaries.

I always found River's comment to Ten about looking younger than she has ever seen him odd given Eleven's comprative youth and so I assume she just means in Time Lord terms. However, I think the fact that River does not comment this being the first/only time she has seen this incarnation in person means that there must have been other meetings between River and Ten and having met Ten previously (later in his timeline) would make sense in the context of the "younger than I have ever seen you" comment.

I struggle with the idea of an "older" Doctor going back and "Mels" falling in love with him because there was no sense in LKH of Eleven and "Mels" ever having connected before and for me a lot of the power of LKH was that the Doctors caring for Amy/Rory/River/humanity in general at the expense of his own life was what commenced the process for her of falling in love with him and thus saving his life. Also I liked the idea last night of River falling in love with him through books/archeology ("idle gossip" Grin) but it does mean that her story in TIA does not make sense which is a shame becuase it was a beautiful monologue.

Aaargh!

Also - what was the need of the Silence Madam K to kidnap Mels and raise a psychopath if ultimately they have a space suit which just kind of takes control of the body and overpowers your will? Why antagonise the Doctor by kidnapping the child of his best friends when you could just put any random in the suit and have him/her kill the doctor?

should just say that I cannot watch DW Confidential until tomorrow morning and I think this deals with River's timeline to a certain extent so may explain my confusion.

Going back to what I loved before the holes drive me crazy:

"mother in law" and the sucked lemon face!

the doctors comment to Rory she would like to go out with you "for texting and scones" Grin

Loved the reference to "timey wimey" on top of the pyramid. Do you think that was a "nyer" to those of us overthinking it? Grin

What are the thoughts on what the Doctor said to Rory when he went back to him (just before the texting and scones comments). When he said the bit about why is it that Rory is always there just waiting - do you think something is going to come of that in the next series? I thought it was said in a portentious kind of way.

SoupDragon · 02/10/2011 12:00

Am I right in thinking that it was actually The Silents rather than The Silence?

SoupDragon · 02/10/2011 12:02

and am I really the only one who thought it was garbled and rushed and could have done with being a longer episode?

EdithWeston · 02/10/2011 12:10

SarahBumBarer: I can think of a partial answer to "Why River?". TIA wasn't the first attempt on the Doctor's life - we've seen an earlier one with the Judas kiss (he does like to blend in religion, doesn't he?) and there may have been others (which possibly we shall see in the future, depending on what time lines we are shown). So Mme Kovarian needed River - a Time Traveller - to be able to go forwards and backwards making attempts. We don't know when she got the space suit - it could have been after a number of failed assassination attempts, but once she had it, using her long-term would-be (and expendable) assassin would still make sense.

Maryz · 02/10/2011 12:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyoneButLulu · 02/10/2011 12:22

I haven't re-watched River's speech about her first meeting with the Doctor (was it in TIA?) but I assumed she was talking about Mels' meeting with the Doctor in LKH - it doesn't seem unreasonable to refer to Mels at that point as a "young girl", if that's the phrase.

SarahBumBarer · 02/10/2011 12:33

Sorry Soup - probably is the Silents. Actually I would prefer it to be the Silence. I liked the whole "silence will fall" bit and them being the Silence rather than Silents would give another whole possible explanation to that which is eliminated if it is the "Silents". So I think you're right but I think my way was better Grin

Edith: Yes but...thinking aloud here, so sorry if garbled. Mels has now regenerated into River so Mels cannot now try to kill the Doctor because she no longer exists. So I need to rewatch LKH to see if there was any indication that Mels could have met the doctor previously in her timeline (in future in his). I had the idea that it was definitely the first meeting for her and that she had been biding her time. Soooo.. in theory yes, perhaps that is why they chose Mels/River because of the time travel potential but it just did not work out because the first time Mels met the Doctor, the situation was such that she started to fall in love with him and thus resist the indoctrination of the Silents (nod to Soup) and Madame K. Ok that works for me - thank you! Smile

Maryz/Soup - I also thought it was rushed. I'm guessing, given the comments above about the hiatus, possibly due to financial issues? How the hell does DW run out of money - isn't it hugely successful globally and from a merchandising perspective?

Is that also why there was no trailer for the Xmas special - late start to filming for the same reasons?

I do hope they can still afford Alex Kingston next series for a couple of eps and we just get some fun River episodes where she is being swashbackly and fab!

Re KG&AD - I had read that they are not in the next series so much due to other work committments.

Supposed to be working....

SarahBumBarer · 02/10/2011 12:37

Anyone not rewatched it either so hope I am remembering correctly (I will dig it out at some point - I feel a Doctor who catch up session coming on now the present series has finished) but I think it implied lots of meetings - doctor making an impression on a young girl by knowing everything about her etc etc.

Is it worth buying An Unearthly Child and some of the early eps? I was not a huge DW fan as a child (Sylvester era) but am now intrigued to see some of the early episodes.

ScatterChasse · 02/10/2011 12:43

You know the night when River was breaking in, not out, I thought for some reason she'd been out with the Dr, skating on the Thames for her birthday I thought? So if I haven't made that up he has obviously kept going to visit her.

But if he'd dashed off to meet her after working out who she really was (end of half series), why was it he didn't go to the little girl in the orphanage? He can't have done, because Mels hadn't met him. Was it just he didn't know what she looked like/ where she was?

SoupDragon · 02/10/2011 13:23

Oh, I only twigged last night that it was probably the Silents rather than silence :o up until then I thought it was silence.

TashHag · 02/10/2011 14:44

The BBC subtitles say 'Silents'

MigratingCoconuts · 02/10/2011 15:28

I did like the irony that, from memory (and it was a long time age that I saw it) one of the first really meaningful questions asked in the first ever episode of Dr Who as exactly this question.

As i remember it, The Doctor was introducing himself to one of Susan's teachers as 'Doctor', to which they asked 'Dr Who?'...hence the name.

So, in that sense, it was the first question.

prettybird · 02/10/2011 16:31

I agree: it was a bit rushed and therefore unsatisfying.

Far too much timey-wimey stuff needing complicated explanations and not a rip-roaring finale.

baileyslover · 02/10/2011 17:19

I thought it was excellent, but one query - when River visited Amy for a glass of wine, it appeared to be just after the doctor dying in Amy's timeline, but didn't they all meet up with younger doctor to go straight to 1969 and the silents? So when did this conversation take place? Was it after the doctor had dropped Amy and Rory off after the God Complex and Amy knew the date had passed but just wasn't there that time.... Hmmmm have I just confused myself more!

PotPourri · 02/10/2011 17:38

I think they changed time by river not killing him... Confused

SoupDragon · 02/10/2011 17:47

Amy and Rory were dropped off to start their new life after they had physically done the whole 1969 bit and seen the doctor killed. Which is confusing seeing as they were in that house when they got the letter to go to Lake Silencio. Which, for them, had already happened. [brain explodes]

So it isn't particularly odd that they enjoyed a glass of wine with River whilst also supposedly prancing about in 1969 with the doctor.

SoupDragon · 02/10/2011 17:55

OK, I think I've got it...

Amy and Rory see the Dr killed and then go off to 1969. The timeline unfolds with them trundling on to the point at which they are dropped off at their house after the time that the Dr is killed. Thus when River pops in for wine, it is an earlier A&R who have just seen the Dr killed and gone off on the 1969 jaunt. The chat over wine could have happened at any point in the time line after the whole Lake Silencio thing.

EdithWeston · 02/10/2011 19:14

Who, where or what is "Transalore" (phon)?

SarahBumBarer · 02/10/2011 19:30

The Wikipedia (I know, I know) entry is for "the Silence" a religious order etc...

Edith I'm assuming we will find out next series although SM had said he was not going to do the overriding story arch again.

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