My whole family is miserable because of our teenage son

[Wherehaveigonewrong29384]

My son is 15. For his whole life he has always liked to try and control situations, have his opinion on everything and have the last word . To balance this out he was funny, entertaining and very loving.
Now as a teen the nice parts have disappeared and he is now just horrible to be around. We are at our wits end with him.
We have tried very hard to be calm, look at things from his point of view, have firm boundaries etc but things have deteriorated and we now at the point where son and dad can't stand each other, im in the middle, daughter on the sidelines.
On top of this he does absolutely nothing even when asked (chores etc) yet expects constant money, lifts, pay for his phone, demands clothes/ items /haircuts every week.
Further to this he is not doing well at school. Has a terrible attitude and is on report constantly. Of course we then have to put in consequences which then makes his moods /arguments even worse to live with.
He goes out with his mates every spare moment he has. This is one area that we dont have to worry about as is not a trouble maker out of the house and has a good group of friends, he is usually back on time mostly, but he is out an extreme amount of time. When hes out of the house , the house is calm. As soon as he comes in the atmosphere changes, im on high alert waiting for the argument that will inevitably happen over something. Son has said he goes out because he hates being with us and at home, but what he means is hate having to somewhere there is rules and consequences. We have tried to give our kids a wonderful life, amazing holidays, they have everything they want, a lovely large home, and I feel like a mug. My daughter is such a grateful person and he is such a selfish person.
I am so so tired of it all. My husband says like he feels like giving up doesnt want a relationship with him anymore other than providing his basics. (He's just spent 1k on him for xmas). I feel completely worn out by it all and dread him coming home.
My poor daughter who is 12 is a lovely young lady who has to listen to this all the time. She used to have a good close relationship with her brother but hes withdrawn from her too which really upsets her.
Dont know where to go from here, I was going to separate from my husband over it because I felt he was too harsh on him and to stop all the arguments. I've always stuck up for my son. But now im seeing it for what it really is and it is my son thats the issue .

When he was younger he was a really lovely child, didn't have tantrums, was so funny and entertaining and people of all ages would comment how great he was. His only issues were the wanting to be centre of attention and the lack of empathy.

@Wherehaveigonewrong29384 this leaped out at me as I could have written the same about my own DC. They were (are) high functioning neurodivergent and as the demands of school / adolesence increased, so their ability to cope decreased leading to the types of behaviour you are describing due to overwhelm.
Just because a child is sociable, has loads of friends and is articulate does not mean they are not ND.
I do hope you get some support for you and your DS as I know how difficult this is for you all.

They paid off his debts. They gifted him money and helped with renovation costs, while at the same time he was hostile and aggressive to them. Why on Earth did they do that? Why did it take until he's in his 40s for them to put any boundaries in place?

As for my 'rant' about chores - sure, I agree you didn't mention anything specific about chores. I was just reacting to your comment that "they've finally had enough - they're so disgusted with him and can't figure out where they went wrong" and that the parents shouldn't blame themselves and aren't at fault etc.

I disagree. I think parents should take a long hard look at the messages they've been sending with their parenting. Yes, it's possible for a child to go off the rails even with the best of parents, but it's quite unusual.

OP if this rings a bell, then you would be looking at ‘low demand parenting’.

This reduces the anxiety in the child and gives them less to kick back against.

I would look at reducing the demand of being in relationship with you, being a polite, entertaining young man, and let him be a grinch for a few years.

This will be unpopular here, but try this perspective- he didn’t ask to be born, to have you guys as his parents, and his sister. You were all, if you like, inflicted on him.
Try offering to help him do what he needs to do to be fully independent- to get a job, earn, manage his own eating schedule etc. Give him a budget for meals.

Inevitably when we feel our DC following a bad path, we try and love them back into the bosom of the family. Remind them of the loving family unit they are lucky enough to have. If that’s what he’s trying to break free of, it’s counter productive.

Please don’t see that as a criticism- it’s a suggestion for a very specific situation. It may, on this occasion, be the most empathetic path.

You can do the above while also being clear that you are still his family, and will be there if he needs you.

This was what our son was like. For the first five years by bubbly and lovely .
When he started school he changed, wouldn't be seen out with me, horrible to his sister, arguing with his dad, just went out with mates, wouldn't do chores

As time went on he got worse and ultimately had to get him into a flat at 18.

We've had little contact since, he's now 32
And when I do see him it's like walking on eggshells.

How can you say anything "for certain" about OP and her DH, much less conduct a character assassination of them, when you've never met either of them? 🙄

My 16-year-old son is moody (sometimes) and also constantly asking for lifts, clothes, money, haircuts. It's fine though - he knows I am on a limited budget and he also helps round the house, walks the dogs etc. I don't understand the logic in complaining that your son is spoilt, then spoiling him some more with £1k (!!!) worth of Christmas gifts. That's an insane amount to be spending, unless you are Richard Branson. You have to make him understand the value of what you do for him, and the value of money, and your communications sound really poor. You've failed to do that, and now you're blaming him because it's easier than looking at where your own parenting has failed. He doesn't sound anything particularly out of the ordinary for a teenage boy tbh. You can't throw money at this problem to make it go away, you have to step up and actually parent him.

Feel for you, OP, I can see my pre-teen going the same way and a lot of what you are experiencing resonates. Sounds like you have tried everything.

What helped a bit for us was seeing a family psych. Couldn't get my son there but she had some theories about the reasons for his behavior and advice on how to manage. Unfortunately some kids are just little turds regardless of parenting styles. An inconvenient truth that is constantly ignored on MN (I am guessing by MNers who have manageable kids and like to congratulate themselves for that luck).

Could also try disengaging totally when he is being a pain, only engaging when he is being civil. And the excessive gifts have to stop, sorry (speaking as someone who was the same until recently, not a hater)

My daughter is such a grateful person and he is such a selfish person.

My poor daughter who is 12 is a lovely young lady who has to listen to this all the time.

So many 🚩. “My daughter’s AMAZING and he is awful” well your daughter is 12 so you’ll probably start to hate her at 15 when she has a mind of her own. And his biggest crime seems to be not doing housework and avoiding you? And throwing money at a kid and thinking that’s proof that you’re a loving nice parent is ridiculous.

He’s doing the right thing avoid you but you won’t even let him do that!

@EarringsandLipstick it has taken us a long, painful path to get to this understanding of their needs and it hasn't made them easier to parent! Low demand parenting and being very intentional with our communication and language has helped though.

@Kate08x yes I talk about the past with affection because it was lovely, but I also love them as they are older and growing their own personalities. I ask nothing of them so they don't need to react. I just want them to be nice people.
I have two kids who are (currently chalk and cheese). One is an absolute angel, caring, friendly, empathetic, kind, works hard, respects adults , yes she strops off like any preteen but its soon talked about and resolved.
The other is hostile, aggressive , angry, mean, has no respect for anyone , looks for a fight all the time, illusions of grandeur, unkind , rude and causes massive arguments. Of course I am going to praise my daughter . I can't praise him as he is currently doing nothing worth praising!!

Absolutely OP. I think that perhaps people who've never had this experience in dealing with two veey different personalities can truly understand.

Maybe you should talk to my parents about their experience about me and my DB - they certainly had lots of similarities! 😞😵‍💫

There may be some ND or something going on - but no-one on here can diagnose him. Many of us with ND teens can pick out some things from your posts but RL may be very different and he may just be a moody teen and it is about peak time for teen boys to have issues with school and home.

Best advice I can suggest OP is reading round possible diagnosis/conditions and suggestions for parenting teens with them and then see what works for him. Also look at commuciating with teens - driving often suggested - or books like how to talk to teens so they listen.

I would also try and work out if he's struggling in school and if at all possible encouaage a widening of his social group - via clubs/volteering etc though he'd need to be on board with trying that - and later at 16 p/t job would also likely help if he can find such a thing would also help with understanding value of money - which frankly I don't think with the spending you talk of been done by you yet.

Other than that it's pick your battles and try and migiate effects on DD. I also think your DH being very unhelpful - he's the adult here and need to work out how to parent the teen boy he has not go withdrawn or super strict - it is very draining dealing with a hostile teen holding boundaries but also communicating effectively so you do both need to support each other. Some kids are harder than others to parent.

It sounds very hard. If your son will not engage with therapy, I can only suggest that you find a therapist for yourself and your husband so that you can discuss how best to respond to your son. It will be expensive but if you find a good one it might be very useful, especially if they have experience of challenging young men.
There may be hope ... if your son craves autonomy and needs to always be the boss he may find life easier when he can leave home and school and live independently. Do you think he would accept the idea of career coaching? ... because he will need to find work that he is suited to and that he can manage to do with his challenging personality.

Be aware, OP, today seems a bit weird on MN. There seems to be a cohort out to find the most spiteful interpretation of every post possible.

Don't feel obliged to persuade or justify yourself to anyone that’s accusing you of narcissism or anything else. As parents we all make mistakes, get some things right and others wrong, and we often don’t know which is which- though many will have opinions!

I had an extremely trying time with DS1. Fortunately we got past it and he’s now a lovely man. But it didn’t always look that way 😱

You should still find something to praise him for.

Haven't RTFT but this book has saved the sanity of many parents of teens:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Get-Out-My-Life-First/dp/B004XZXPOQ

He sounds like a teenage boy. They ARE pretty gruesome sometimes. It's an essential rite of passage to rebel against everything your parents mean and stand for - whatever you think and say will be supremely stupid in his eyes at the moment, and if you say black he'll go white, just to be contrary.

Not engaging in school is often a side effect of being a teenage boy and trying to find your place in a macho-male hierarchy. It's cooler to be in trouble than to be a swot. There's much more kudos in being excluded or put in isolation than in handing your homework in on time and getting top marks. He's trying to be a man, but has only a vague, childlike idea of what that means - hence the ridiculous posturing and insecurity maskerading as bravado.

They do say that's the kids that are hardest to love that need it most.

Hang in there. I reckon he'll come back once he's through this. But while you can understand and have sympathy for him in the meantime, there's no way that this behaviour and attitude gets rewarded with whatever he demands. It's tough growing up, but this is a big -and essential- lesson in that journey: people don't want to be nice to arseholes. It's up to him if he wants to be an arsehole or not, but he can't expect everyone to like it.

Courage, mon brave. I hope you all find a way through.

Then catch him doing something right …

you were there for 15years, no?

he’s your product! He didn’t wake up one day being nasty!

I wouldn’t waste your time. GFs just gotta GF.

Its apparent just from the content of the posts than whatever experience they claim on behalf of their parent, the PP learned nothing from it.

He sounds like my brother when growing up and I have a lot of sympathy for both you and him. My brother turned out to be autistic but masked heavily (does to this day) and was very misunderstood by my parents. Nothing worked with his behavior and yes he was a challenging child but it was still our parents' job to understand he was different and parent him accordingly. The information available at the time was of course limited and we all struggled with the atmosphere at home. My father treated him horribly and looking back I think it was due to the helplessness he felt and the belief that you have to come down hard on certain behaviours. I don't know if your son is autistic or not but he is definitely not being the way he is for no reason. Forget CAHMs, go private and get him diagnosed. There is either some neurodivergence or some other form of trauma here. You can't get him the right help until you know what's wrong. Best of luck to you all.

He's been spoilt ! Spoiling kids makes them.selfish and ungrateful !
Take away everything ! And let him have things back gradually he may appreciate them.more then ! Or let him get a part time job and buy haircuts ect himself ,!
Don't give him over 1 k in Xmas gifts he is already spoilt x

I believe nature matters more than nurture, but others disagree. Some argue that environment is everything, but most would say we’re a mix of the two (environment can even switch certain genes on and off, and we know abuse and trauma can re-wire the brain). Very few people would argue that environment has no impact. Believing genes play the decisive role is not the same as believing genes play the only role.

With the exception, perhaps, of psychopaths, a child who is surrounded by love and gentleness, and whose parents set a good example (showing concern and pity for others, etc), cannot but be affected. I used to work with young offenders. Often, you could tell the ones who’d been loved and well brought up and the ones who hadn’t. No matter how violent or anti-social they had become, they couldn’t prevent that upbringing shining through. They would often say please or thank you, would hold the door open for me, etc. Often, they would do so without thinking. It was ingrained behavior. They had seen their grandfather or their dad behave like that. The really dangerous kids were the ones who’d never had any love or guidance, who had no sense of right and wrong and no moral compass.

In my experience, a child who has been loved without being spoilt (a spoilt child can be just as damaged as an abused and neglected child), usually turns out OK in the end. They might go off the rails for a few years, but then, as the hormones change and they mature, they settle down. I have seen it. I knew a boy at school who grew up in a beautiful, detached house with loving parents but ended as a drug dealer and was on the run for two years. He went to prison, married his probation officer and is now happily settled with a job and two children. He’s all over social media looking adoringly at his kids and now resembles a dull middle-aged solicitor.

Indeed, I shouldn't have bothered engaging with them in the first place. Their very first post was unnecessarily vicious and the subsequent ones have been no less obnoxious - I should have just reported them to MN. 😏

Can someone with knowledge tell me how, if the OP's son is neuro divergent, should she parent him? He still obviously needs to function in the world and to learn that boundaries exist. How does the OP implement this so that they are sensitive to any ND?

In my own experience, with NT teenagers, my son very much believed that he was second best to his sister. This wasn't true at all but it was much easier to parent her because she followed instructions and therefore we didn't have the same cause to put consequences in place. I always said to him that our behaviour towards him was a reflection of his behaviour towards us
We established an absolute baseline of expectations - no food plates left in bedroom, put washing in a basket, complete school work on time. And then we always brought it back to him by saying this is what we expect, you need to understand that if you can't meet basic expectations there will be consequences - and that sometimes meant tangible consequences but also frustration in how we spoke to him because actually I don't want to find 3 month old mouldy food in his room. He is 20 now and he's amazing. He doesn't play the victim anymore and is turning into a lovely young man.