My whole family is miserable because of our teenage son

[Wherehaveigonewrong29384]

My son is 15. For his whole life he has always liked to try and control situations, have his opinion on everything and have the last word . To balance this out he was funny, entertaining and very loving.
Now as a teen the nice parts have disappeared and he is now just horrible to be around. We are at our wits end with him.
We have tried very hard to be calm, look at things from his point of view, have firm boundaries etc but things have deteriorated and we now at the point where son and dad can't stand each other, im in the middle, daughter on the sidelines.
On top of this he does absolutely nothing even when asked (chores etc) yet expects constant money, lifts, pay for his phone, demands clothes/ items /haircuts every week.
Further to this he is not doing well at school. Has a terrible attitude and is on report constantly. Of course we then have to put in consequences which then makes his moods /arguments even worse to live with.
He goes out with his mates every spare moment he has. This is one area that we dont have to worry about as is not a trouble maker out of the house and has a good group of friends, he is usually back on time mostly, but he is out an extreme amount of time. When hes out of the house , the house is calm. As soon as he comes in the atmosphere changes, im on high alert waiting for the argument that will inevitably happen over something. Son has said he goes out because he hates being with us and at home, but what he means is hate having to somewhere there is rules and consequences. We have tried to give our kids a wonderful life, amazing holidays, they have everything they want, a lovely large home, and I feel like a mug. My daughter is such a grateful person and he is such a selfish person.
I am so so tired of it all. My husband says like he feels like giving up doesnt want a relationship with him anymore other than providing his basics. (He's just spent 1k on him for xmas). I feel completely worn out by it all and dread him coming home.
My poor daughter who is 12 is a lovely young lady who has to listen to this all the time. She used to have a good close relationship with her brother but hes withdrawn from her too which really upsets her.
Dont know where to go from here, I was going to separate from my husband over it because I felt he was too harsh on him and to stop all the arguments. I've always stuck up for my son. But now im seeing it for what it really is and it is my son thats the issue .

oh god I get so worried when I read posts like this! I worry endlessly about my DS behaviour being genetic and unchangeable. I have to hope it's not the case.

In some ways, I can recognise my teenage self in my DS. I was nothing like him in terms of behaviour, but I was angry, felt unheard and got very emotional, very easily. I would have been hard to be around. I know in my case, it was often a case of feeling unseen and unloved, really, and I had very low self-esteem. In my case, I channeled it in to the opposite of my DS - I sought love by being very very good e.g. excelled at school, always trying to help / impress at home - but still would have reacted very badly if I felt I was being judged unfairly etc. It took a lot of growing up, and therapy to figure it all out. So while I was nothing like him behaviourally, I actually can identify with his emotional outlook.

The difference is, my parents never ever (product of their times etc) talked about my feelings or anyone else's and were very harsh and punitive. I on the other hand spend ages (trying to) listen, understand, validate him, show him love - which makes me look stupid as he runs rings around me, deceiving me / misbehaving. 😔

This gives a need for autonomy coupled with poor impulse control, a very egocentric viewpoint and highly sensitive to any percived rejection or signs you don't love him.

@LexiFeatherston that's like a perfect one sentence description of my DS. It's very interesting to read your post.

You can start by saying no to the lifts, the money etc etc until he has a word with himself.

An example of some of the terrible advice.

It's not wrong to cut down on the gifts, of course - they are excessive.

However, withdrawing everything he values, is not going to magically create a kind, engaged boy all of a sudden. It will instead increase his resentment and feeling he isn't loved.

(I get how tempting it is and have done some of this myself previously. It doesn't work though).

My parents bent over backwards for my younger brother, to such an extent I stopped asking for anything, caused them so little stress, that I think they forgot that I might need a little time and attention. It made me independent, but made no difference to my brother who went through life thinking he was right and early adulthood soon changed that view. My parents only ever argued over him and my mum hid so much that she really must have wondered what they did wrong. Honestly, if your son doesn't want to do something, then go without him, don't argue with him, tell him clothes in hamper to wash then it happens, but if he wants to be a man then he needs to act like one and that means his parents are no longer needed to do parent stuff! As for money, same allowance to him and your daughter, when it's gone that's it and men make their own transport arrangements, so as long as he doesn't bring the police to the door, then tell him that off he goes. End of this story is brother was dabbling in drugs, impacted his behaviour and mental health and well hidden early on, so we didn't know, but soon became a road that he couldn't get off! Not saying the same situation here, but there's a trigger somewhere.

It could simply be hormonal especially, if as you say, he is a late developer. Teenagers can be horrible. Nothing you say really suggests any kind of diagnosable condition but it's impossible to say over the internet.
I know it's hard as parents but you're not really helping. You sound as though you are both desperate for a solution but in denial about addressing his issues. For instance, the xmas presents. Nobody needs that much stuff especially someone whose behaviour is this bad. Cut it back. Put the bulk of it to one side somewhere and tell him he can have things later in the year if his behaviour improves. Or if he makes more effort before xmas add stuff back.
Don't let him go out. If he just goes out anyway, put consequences in place. Don't let him walk all over you. I took the view that I'd ignore the small stuff (the eye rolls, the big sigh etc) but real rudeness (swearing at me, calling me names etc) I wouldn't accept. Pick your battles but have firm consequences and stick to them. He will learn it eventually. Even if he turns out to have some kind of diagnosable condition he will still need to learn some boundaries but you may need to adjust how you do it.
But by just giving him them all and any other stuff you're doing for him, you are reinforcing in his mind that his behaviour doesn't matter. Make him understand that his behaviour has consequences. You need to be firm. It's not always nice being a parent and this is one of those times but it's your job. He needs to grow up to be an independent and functioning member of society. At the moment you're not helping him do that.

I agree with the PP about possible oppositional defiant disorder.

I wonder whether my late DB had that too. His behaviour was always totally self absorbed, very aggressive and never listened or took advice.

Maybe it's something to consider looking into, OP.

He is probably doing a shit load of weed.
Please stop throwing money at him. Its not helping. He currently only finds fault, so let him feel that consequence make sure he can’t steal it. He will threaten to leave. Fine. He will drop out if school. Fine. From that point you will be able to make a plan for an apprenticeship or job whereby he learns the value of money.
if you don’t stop just handing him money he will still be abusing you even after he's 18 with no job, no prospects, & refusing to move out.

Also He dosen’t need lifts he has his £200 bike, give him some waterproof gear for Xmas

What specifically makes you think he has something undiagnosed? We live in an era where every tiny behaviour is pathologised but apart from behaving in a spoilt, self absorbed and selfish manner why do you think something is actually wrong that isn’t explained by being a rather spoiled and self absorbed teen phase?

In my family’s experience CAHMS was not only unhelpful but actually negative giving incorrect assessments and recommendations. Stop spending money on goods and enabling his social life with the wasters, buy him a session with follow up with a recommended adolescent psychiatrist for Christmas instead because if you are correct about an undiagnosed condition that is the best present you can buy him.

How would your/DH’s parents have dealt with either of you behaving like this growing up? They must have given you both the work ethic and characters and opportunities to do well which is worth a great deal more than a fancy bike. Like you, I grew up poor, my parents often had to tell us we couldn’t have things that other children did as academic progress meant time spent with wealthier children. I learned very early that children who sneer because you are less spoiled than they are and don’t have the latest of everything are not the people you want as friends as you grow up. Your sons’ friends are not “lovely” boys, they are spoilt brats all egging each other on in greed and selfishness. There is nothing “lovely” about sneering at the child who doesn’t have the latest overpriced hobby kit so they rush home to demand it from their parents. You seem to be equating their wealth and confidence with their loveliness - have more self belief and belief in the values which helped you both succeed.

Stop enabling DS to spend more time with these bad influence wasters, fund private psychiatry for his present and take it from there. Step back a bit, let him wash his own clothes if you are not doing it to his satisfaction, help him find a part time job so he can start on his plan to leave home and work. He will benefit more from having to earn his own spending money than having everything handed on a plate.

I agree. Both come into play but nature, I believe, has the upper hand.

My sister was the difficult one, not to the extent of this lad but she would change the energy for the worse as soon as she came through the door. Life was very peaceful when she was out.

My parents really didn’t know how to handle her either. She was high maintenance and difficult to handle from babyhood. I on the other hand was born an easy going baby and was easy going throughout my childhood. Even into adulthood and approaching pension ages in the next few years, our born natures are still there. My sister has calmed down with age but it is clearly still there. A most basic and simplistic example is I can chill out and do nothing in particular for hours as I’m a real homebody, she can’t sit still for a minute and always has to be outside. I always felt comfortable in my own skin whereas she was always discontent, chasing her tail and distrupting the peace around her. I always thought it ironic as a kid as she was far cleverer, talented and capable than I was - I was rather mousey and average but liked myself. Same parents, same upbringing. I remember a relative commenting there must have been an ancestor she took after.

This sounds complex op and there's a few layers here I'm thinking about. I am wondering about asd or oppositional defiance disorder as well and would want both of those explored with camhs. Do you have means to go privately for a second opinion if camhs hasn't been helpful thus far?

I think consistency is key and sometimes you can get so caught up in trying different approaches that you make yourself inconsistent in the process. So you and dh need to sit down ideally with a family therapist and discuss a plan of action and how you're both going to approach things.

In terms of gratitude, I think you need to let this go to an extent. As a parent it is absolutely my job to put a roof over ds head, keep him clothed and fed and in a decent lifestyle. As a parent I don't expect ds to be "grateful" necessarily for me doing the bare minimum as a parent. The added extras of designer gear etc etc that needs to be worked for in my opinion so I'd be creating a chores/ behaviour and rewards scheme for him where he can earn things outside of birthday/Christmas.

I think it's worrying that he spends excessive amounts of time out with his friends. You say they are good friends but actually they sound like a terrible influence and I'd absolutely be worried about what they're getting up to if he's out with them so much with no supervision at that age. As part of his earning chart I'd actually include volunteer work and hobbies like cadets or something he's good at and interested in that gets him out of the house and being productive and meeting other young people. I'd look at what local youth services are in your area and try to link him in with a local youth worker.

I'd also establish a certain amount of family time and ask him and your dd how they want to spend that time. Then you need to make a conscious effort to have fun and pick your battles during that time.

I think you need to be mindful of your expectations as well, none of us know your ds and I've worked with lots of parents who are at the end of their tether with teens who are actually pretty decent teens who cannot live up to expectations. So be careful of this.

I love the pps suggestion of taking the time to recognise the things you like and love about ds. I'd be looking for any opportunity for positive praise and feedback and look into playful parenting approaches.

Try to look at this long term, he's in the roughest part of growing up. Those years he's in can be horrendous and confusing and overwhelming and many teens are nightmares during it. They do come good again and how you approach this is what sustains the relationship during the worst of it.

Your husband cannot just clock out of a relationship with his son now that it is tough!

teenage boys lock horns with their dads, it’s biology

your DH needs to step up and do the bulk of parenting in this regard. He really needs to step up, not step down…. Don’t let him be that shitty dad that leaves his kids when the going gets tough

What is your DH like, OP? Does he have form for being unable to cope with dealing with the kids when they are difficult? What does he remember being like as a teen? Was he a happy teen? Did he fit into his peer group? A lot of neurological traits are highly hereditary and often parents with rigid ways of thinking, for whatever reason, can struggle to deal with children who also have specific needs.

It’s bloody ridiculous! You’re encouraging the competition and funding it ffs.
My DCs friends were all much better off than us but my DCs were brought up realising that they couldn’t have everything they wanted. If they wanted something expensive they had to work to contribute towards it.
You’ve brought him up to expect that what he wants he gets 🤷🏼‍♀️ and this is the result. As for matching the spend between DCs there will always be times when it doesn’t happen, and as for spend £1k on him when he’s so appalling, words fail me.

The kid is constantly avoiding being at home as much as possible. That’s a horrible sign of what is REALLY going on in this household. Toxic people/parents always blame everyone else and can never see what they’re really like.

No, I didn't say that. They used to give him money - they don't anymore.
I actually wrote: "He's now early forties, but still thinks nothing of coming to them with his hand out, often just after he's screamed abuse at them. They've paid off his debts (£1,000s) on more than one occasion over the years as he's feckless with money, and gifted him money at other times e.g. helping with his house renovation costs." The debt repayments and help with renovations are in the past. The fact that he thinks he's still entitled to demand money doesn't mean they still give it to him, but it's a war of attrition and he thinks if he keeps demanding it he'll wear them down, but he's wrong (he doesn't know they've changed their Wills).
And where did I say anything about him not being expected to do chores at home as a youngster (which he was, and did)? Clue: I didn't - you just went off on some random rant and invented something about my family members' situation that is simply untrue.

I despair when I read this kind of drivel i really do.
Is it any wonder we have a huge uptick of the amount of aggressive, angry, un- empathic, mean people around with this kind of "parenting".

So OP, have you any thoughts on how you want to move forward?
What is it exactly you want to achieve?
Do you just want rid of your troublesome son or do you want to find a way through? Because that really decides your next step.

£250? For 4 bottles of aftershave?
<faints>
Utterly ridiculous.
I think the budget for my DCs never exceeded £100 each for Christmas, let alone £1000.

How dare you say that. This couldn't be further from the truth. Prior to this happening we had an amazing home life filled with fun.
He would spend ours putting on shows and dancing and entertaining us with his sister. Now he has completely detached from us. We do not cause ANY of the arguments. The rest of us dont argue. We hate arguing. Everyone gets upset and stressed. Noone wants that to happen. I always want to avoid the argument which is why I've probably let him get away with things in the past. He is the one that comes raging in shouting and swearing at us looking for a fight before we have even had time to say hello!!!!

This is not one of your mother’s cases, perhaps ask her about the value of armchair diagnosing based on sweeping assumptions on areas the OP has not even mentioned rather than using data points.

Not every family is toxic, sometimes a stroppy selfish teen (or adult) is just a stroppy and selfish teen (or adult) without needing to pathologise every behaviour to death. Some grow out of it quickly, others become the kind of adults none of us want to be around. We all hope for the former, parents are not automatically the cause of the latter.

Serious question OP: how will your DS express his appreciation of all these gifts? Will he thank you? Will he hug you and thank you?

Yes narcissists (and I’m not saying you ARE for certain) LOVE young children who blindly idolise their parents 🙄 you aren’t helping your cause by saying that. And they hate their teenage years when children start to have more of a mind of their own. Narcissists get supply from little kids in the way that teenagers don’t give that. Are you expecting him to be a baby and put on dance shows for you?! Just let him avoid being at home as much as possible and maybe be nicer to him and he won’t want to do that. Don’t be shocked if he goes no contact as soon as he’s an adult.

Some people are never appreciative, no matter what you do or say. It's been am eye opener in that respect with my late DB, I have to say. He even told my DM he didn't like the pizza she was heating up for him when he was in the hospice, but I think that we gave him the grace he deserved at that point obviously. It was hard to see though. 😢