My whole family is miserable because of our teenage son

[Wherehaveigonewrong29384]

My son is 15. For his whole life he has always liked to try and control situations, have his opinion on everything and have the last word . To balance this out he was funny, entertaining and very loving.
Now as a teen the nice parts have disappeared and he is now just horrible to be around. We are at our wits end with him.
We have tried very hard to be calm, look at things from his point of view, have firm boundaries etc but things have deteriorated and we now at the point where son and dad can't stand each other, im in the middle, daughter on the sidelines.
On top of this he does absolutely nothing even when asked (chores etc) yet expects constant money, lifts, pay for his phone, demands clothes/ items /haircuts every week.
Further to this he is not doing well at school. Has a terrible attitude and is on report constantly. Of course we then have to put in consequences which then makes his moods /arguments even worse to live with.
He goes out with his mates every spare moment he has. This is one area that we dont have to worry about as is not a trouble maker out of the house and has a good group of friends, he is usually back on time mostly, but he is out an extreme amount of time. When hes out of the house , the house is calm. As soon as he comes in the atmosphere changes, im on high alert waiting for the argument that will inevitably happen over something. Son has said he goes out because he hates being with us and at home, but what he means is hate having to somewhere there is rules and consequences. We have tried to give our kids a wonderful life, amazing holidays, they have everything they want, a lovely large home, and I feel like a mug. My daughter is such a grateful person and he is such a selfish person.
I am so so tired of it all. My husband says like he feels like giving up doesnt want a relationship with him anymore other than providing his basics. (He's just spent 1k on him for xmas). I feel completely worn out by it all and dread him coming home.
My poor daughter who is 12 is a lovely young lady who has to listen to this all the time. She used to have a good close relationship with her brother but hes withdrawn from her too which really upsets her.
Dont know where to go from here, I was going to separate from my husband over it because I felt he was too harsh on him and to stop all the arguments. I've always stuck up for my son. But now im seeing it for what it really is and it is my son thats the issue .

You've set his expectations high, and now this is the norm for him.

You are continually rewarding his bad behaviour, is it any wonder he is like he is ?

“A child treated to the best of everything can develop narcissistic traits if this treatment is a form of excessive adoration and overvaluation, rather than genuine parental warmth and balanced appreciation. This can lead parents to believe their child is more special and entitled than they actually are, creating an inflated sense of self-importance and entitlement in the child that is not grounded in the child's real experiences and achievements. This is distinct from high self-esteem, which is fostered by parental affection and appreciation.”

Has he grown up being given the best of everything and being told how amazing, brilliant, special he is without necessarily earning that praise?
My mother is a narcissist and due to my horrible childhood I found myself overcompensating with my firstborn, to the point that I was creating a bit of a monster 😅
I’m not saying your son is a narcissist, just that his behaviour vs yours all sounds rather familiar.

Intersting inattenive ADHD been mentioned -- DD1 has that found out finally at 20 - 19 for dsylexia and dspraixa but we had really poor home behavior during A-level - and it was a struggle. I now wonder if covid shut downs gave her more coping capacity during GCSE and perhaps some space from a less than helpful friendship group.

A lot was directed at me and I found it unpleasant at home at times- though DH who had much less tolerance and siblings sometime got it - it was giving her space and ignoring a lot of it but also having hard lines about unacceptable ways to speak or behave towards us and our expecttations for her. She was desperate to be gone at 18 - but seems happier to spend time with us now at 20.

So I wonder if he's not coping in school or with work and there being some underlying issue where he's needs support.

I think the focus on stuff and money is probably only stoking parental resentment rather than helping.

That Christmas list has so much on it, one of them alone should be a main and only gift. You cannot help him fit in with his friends by continuing to buy that friendship for him. You need to really think about what message this sends to him. He needs responsibility and accountability and you need to teach him this by example.

There are so many diagnoses flying about there. The cat is out of the bag, it's going to take consistency and effort to put it back in.

Perhaps this Christmas might be w ay to gently start to do that. No aftershave for a kick off. No £175 shoes.

Is moving house an option? A different area with less close relationship with affluent friends.
Boarding school is an option but frankly if he's going to get expelled what's the point. You could certainly make the offer but sounds like he is unlikely to take you up on it.
I'd personally wind back the lifestyle choices. It's not working giving him what he wants. Put the money aside as savings and if ever turns into a human being you want to spend time with he has a lump sum to go travelling or similar.
Unfortunately he will find that his friends will go off on gap years or off to uni and leave him behind with nothing behind him academically to move life forward. You should not be offering to sponsor gap years or anything for that matter unless he finds the backbone to self motivate.

If he has consistent behaviour problems at school, what are the interventions? Has he been referred to the SENCO, and have they contacted you?
Schools are dealing with many, many children with possible ADHD and ASD etc etc. they're used to it.
Set up a meeting about his progress and see what happens.

1k on gifts is madness under most circumstances, but to reward him for his appalling behaviour is just bonkers. I would give him nothing but a roof over his head until he can show you both love and respect.

Sounds like you have raised a monster
i hope you can turn it around.

This sounds like Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD).
I looked it up:

• Persistent angry/irritable mood
• Argumentative and defiant behavior specifically toward authority figures
• Actively refuses requests
• Blames others, takes no accountability
• Deliberately annoys or upsets family members
• Vindictive attitude

The fact that CAMHS has assessed him multiple times without a diagnosis is significant - they're telling you he doesn't meet criteria for autism or ADHD. His anxiety diagnosis matters though - anxiety can manifest as anger and opposition in teens.

You say he is always needing control, last word, attention-seeking as a child, no interest in others - combined with complete lack of empathy, no remorse, and escalating disrespect that suggests it goes beyond typical teen rebellion.
When you return to CAMHS on December 11th, I'd specifically ask them about:

• ODD assessment - does he meet criteria?
• Whether ODD plus anxiety explains the presentation
• Family therapy rather than just individual therapy
• Whether the parenting approaches being suggested are appropriate for

his specific issues

You need support because he needs your support .

You speak about him as though his behaviour existís in a vacuum. Both you and your husband brought him up with a focus on material things and he’s acting accordingly. The fact that your husband thinks nothing of dropping 1K on presents for him but wants to wash his hands of him speaks volumes. A big house and expensive holidays are lovely but they don’t meet a child’s emotional needs. His friend group sound rather toxic, as well.

I have a relative whose son is a little younger than yours but very similar. He’s spoilt rotten and has never had boundaries or his behaviour corrected, yet his parents seem baffled that he’s turned out to be a not particularly nice child.

He doesn't sound like a "spoiled brat" that other poster have said (FFS). He sounds a lot like our DC who has a heady mix of pathological demand avoidance and ADHD. This gives a need for autonomy coupled with poor impulse control, a very egocentric viewpoint and highly sensitive to any percived rejection or signs you don't love him. Please keep pushing with CAMHS. It is really hard as a parent and you have my sympathies

Don’t beat yourself up too much OP. You sound like a good person and a wonderful mum (the fact that you are worried and upset and have come on MN for advice proves it, as does the fact you have raised a lovely daughter). Human beings are a product of two things - their genes and their environment. Debate still rages about which is the more important. For what it’s worth, I think nature/genes matter more than nurture/environment. For example, my mother is a wonderful person - kind, gentle, always thinking of others, etc. Her parents were both lovely as well. Yet her sister is the vilest human being I have ever met - jealous, spiteful, and totally selfish. How my grandparents produced her is beyond me. She was just born that way. My grandmother’s sister was exactly the same, and those traits just came out in my aunt.

That said, he is at the worst possible age. Twenty years from now, deep into a loving marriage with children of his own, he may change. All you can is keep on keeping on. Children who are deeply loved (without being spoilt), and whose parents are good people who care about others, rarely grow into monsters.

I get where you're coming from, but even as a neurodivergent person myself I don't think it's reasonable to just give in and tell him he doesn't have to do anything around the house anymore. He already treats his loving parents like scum and rewarding that isn't going to help, plus his sister will end up resenting him (if she doesn't already).

You can be both neurodivergent and a spoilt, selfish person.

Just out of interest from the age of 6 to 10, when he had a lack of empathy and wasn't interested in anyone else, what was your reaction? What did you do to build empathy? He shouldn't have had the last word. His Dad shouldn't be in tears. You've given him the little prince syndrome. It's eventually going to get knocked out of him.

Please stand your ground and do not host Xmas. They don’t appreciate it that is clear and thats where I would be saying enough is enough. When we use to go to my mums every year, I wouldn’t turn up empty handed I did the puddings. (She always had a back up because she always thought I’d forget) and my sister would bring the starters. Only my sister, husband and kids go now because my family just got too big I’ve 7 children, so we have our own in our house. But your family seem so self entitled. Do not host Xmas for everyone. Xx

If a young person has a disorder how does spoiling them help?

I think you're on the wrong thread!

I have no useful advice except good luck stomping that behaviour out and please don’t give up in doing it now.

A lot of what you’ve said seems very very similar to my DD and unfortunately it seems to be getting worse as she grows up, not better. I’m dreading the reality check she’ll get when she enters the workforce full time because with her atitude I just know she’ll struggle.

I think a lot of it comes from insecurity and wanting to always be the big dog because otherwise they feel like they don’t exist. Sometimes DD debates me on such trivial things that I just don’t know what else to say. It’s very difficult to deal with.

But he’s under extreme demands at school. This is obvious due to his behaviour.

Just lift some of the pressure at home.

My late DB was like this as a teenager. Angry, aggressive, horrible to my parents after an idyllic childhood when we'd both been adopted (from different birth parents).

He had everything he could ever wish for, yet wasted his life on drugs and being ungrateful towards my poor mum and dad. I was the "good", appreciative child like your DD, OP. It nearly sent my parents insane. They tried everything but eventually decided it was just for the best to let him get on with it. Even after a policeman told him in no uncertain terms what might be the severe consequences of his actions, it made bugger all difference.

Sorry if this anecdote provides no answers, OP. Just solidarity and sympathy. It's not your fault, I promise. Someone can just have a wonderful personality yet another can be raised by the same people but be the opposite.

I will try to think of something more constructive to contribute for you.

@Wherehaveigonewrong29384 I have read your posts, and all the replies on this thread, with interest.

So much of what you describe is exactly like my youngest DS (14). When I tell you, I am currently living on my nerves, and barely holding it together I am not exaggerating.

I think you have had some very good advice (as well as idiotic posts from people who don't understand).

My DS behaves very similarly to yours, and can act in incredibly hurtful, disrespectful and nasty ways, to his family, and also in school. Outside of school, he is very sporty, very popular, with lots of friends. Like yours, he goes out for long periods, and is well behaved, with a good group of boys who I know and like.

It is impossible to describe how challenging is. He can be fine one minute; then something will dysregulate him and he can turn into an angry, aggressive person, who will say / do anything in the moment. It might sound like your average 'challenging teen' behaviour but it isn't - it is at a point where as a family we can do nothing together, e.g. an outing, birthday celebration or Christmas, that he doesn't ruin. It's now become a self-fulfilling prophecy, as we know it's going to happen, and say so, and he clearly hears that message that he is the problem etc and lives up to it - but honestly, I have had to say no to two family Christmas invites as I know he will end up being incredibly rude and hurtful to me or his siblings, and by extension embarrass me / affect the wider family (who I have a difficult relationship with anyway).

He can still be bright, funny, chatty and a good conversationalist but it is much less frequent. I honestly dread hearing him get up, coming home to him in the evening, and every time I see the school's number flash up I have a sick feeling in my stomach.

In my case, I'm a single parent, have brought them up myself since he was a baby. So he wasn't around his dad - who was a horrible abusive man, and while he doesn't actively engage in any parenting, does everything he can to manipulate them when he does see them. I worry endlessly that he is genetically pre-disposed to be like his father.

Other posters mentioned anxiety - that's absolutely an issue for my DS. He is extremely sensitive, and thinks very deeply about things - but no matter what you try, won't open up except very rarely - and when he does, has quite extraordinary insight. He hates being given out to or when I shout - I don't start with shouting but he pushes and pushes until it's nearly impossible not to, and then he reacts very badly.

I am in Ireland, so finally have an appointment with a private psychologist who was recommended to me specifically for situations like this. He is adamant he doesn't want to go, but even though I know I can't force him, he just has to try and I am praying he will engage.

I don't have advice for you OP, except to say that you have got good suggestions here, and from parents who get it; and also to say, that I understand all that you say, and the feelings you have. It's so so hard. I put a mask on each day coming to work and often think - if they only knew what I'd been through in the few hours before I got here. It reminds me of covering up my H's abuse before I managed to get him to leave, which makes me very sad.

I would say that all those advocating 'tough love', 'remove all privileges' etc really haven't a clue. I get why it makes sense. I have gone through all the consequences too - and he does still get them e.g. I have strict limits on his phone and all devices, because he cannot regulate himself on them, and is even more horrible if he has too much time but I have found the direct consequence-for-bad-behaviour approach does not work. He feels resentful, angry, and always that it's 'unfair' and ups the ante - in the end, he can upset me and do far more harm with his behaviour, than I can with any consequences.

While I understand what you say about your DD, and that you aren't doing it intentionally - for your DS, he almost certainly feels excluded, and 'other' in the house, with you, DD and DH being a gang in your own right. It's very hard but he is working from a place of hurt.

On the gifts / privileges, I don't agree with taking them away as a consequence, but I do think re-setting your approach is key - I do not have that kind of disposable income so it's not an issue I share, but you are spending far too much on him, and, like giving a child a lot of sugary treats, it's actually making him worse. My DS also is obsessed with money, brands, getting 'stuff', and it's horrible at times the way he goes on - nothing about the value of a getting a gift, from a sense of love or occasion, just the material value, and it is so different to my core values that it really shocks and upsets me. So I do understand the situation with your DS.

I'd also say - as hard as it is now, if you are two loving parents, and a solid family, which it sounds like you are, take heart (as I will try to!) from the posters who came through the other side and have a happier relationship with their DC.

He's either part of your family, or he's not.

If he is, then he gets the benefits of having his clothing washed, but that means there has to be some reciprocal respect.

If he's not, and you're just some arseholes he happens to have to live with, then he can deal with that by looking after himself.

At some point he needs to understand that pushing you away all the time might actually result in disengagement. You don't really talk about here how you've tried to deal with this - other than telling him he needs to take responsibility for washing his clothing? What did you do when he accused you of neglect? I can tell you what I would have done - I would have shrugged and told him that "neglect" and he can either take responsibility for his clothing or wear dirty stuff. Your omission of what happens after he's horrible indicates that you back down at every opportunity.

You and your husband need to be on the same page. But you also need to exert some firm boundaries - who cares what his friends are saying, what they're getting? If I'd tried that tack on my own mum, she would have said "well they're not your parents, are they?" and I would say the same to mine.

I am reading all of the comments and taking everything on board.we have always spoiled them at Xmas yes, but the other 364 days a year they barely get anything, and if they want something it comes from their pocket money. He demands and demands but I dont get it for him (apart from the hobby stuff which we have now stopped) .
When he was younger he was a really lovely child, didn't have tantrums, was so funny and entertaining and people of all ages would comment how great he was. His only issues were the wanting to be centre of attention and the lack of empathy. You could take him anywhere and he would never misbehave.
He started puberty quite late and its ramped up massively and quickly. Its like he is a completely different person now. Getting worse and worse every day.
He has had therapy twice it did nothing. He engaged when in there and forgot it all as soon as he came out .
I do think he may have a few issues that we aren't aware of but can guess. Due to his later puberty I think he has felt behind his peers with body development and he has never shown interest in the opposite sex. I dont know what's going on in his mind

Absolutely this, as i was saying too. Nature is much more likely to have an impact on how sometimes someone is than nurture, I agree.

He's acting like a spoilt little shit jackass.

Return everything you can and sponsor a donkey for him.

NO more lifts, top-ups, clothes etc. If he won't do chores and respect you, his Dad and his home then he earns nothing.

If you're worried about the Christmas disparity between him and your DD, put some money in a separate account (in your name) that he can have if he grows up.