Was this anything other than consensual sex?

[fedupwithemployer]

Please help me with this. I keep turning it around in my head and have been unable to sleep all night. I'll keep it brief.

Boy 15
Girl 14

Boy pesters girl for sex. She says no. She is too young and wants to be in a more committed relationship. She's a virgin. Boy asks again, and again. Eventually girl has sex as she wants to stop the nagging, and doesn't want boy to break up with her. Never had a boyfriend. They've been seeing each other a month.

Boy splits up with her the next day.

Thanks.

@Chienloup thanks for the information.

This was me when I was 14. Very coercive and pushing from my then boyfriend(18)

I’m glad your involving the police. I didn’t realise how wrong it was until years later and it still haunts me now.

Your DD will see how wrong he was one day, the only positive I can take from my experience is that after that I was very much stubborn and able to say a firm no, without worrying about letting people down or being dumped.

Try and get some sleep OP.

Consent is context driven and the police will look at a number of factors including ages, whether there was grooming, coercion etc. Difference between acquiescence and submission for example.

Sounds like it may have been rape and even if not a sexual offence - clearly sketchy behaviour.

I’m sorry to hear this and hope your daughter gets past it. He is a bastard. Shame on other posters for victim blaming.

No one is victim blaming. The line has to be drawn somewhere. He's a 15 year old kid below the age of consent himself.
Stop acting like he's some predator who has committed some horrible crime.
It takes away from victims of rape and sexual offences.
It happened when you were young because it's always happened with teens desperate to lose their virginity etc. Boys have always pressurised girls and we knows this and say no.

He wasn't 18 though @24GinDrinkingOnceTheKidsInBed and if he was that would be a whole different story wouldn't it

i think you should let her deal with it herself. If she doesnt want police involvement, and wants all this to stop, then you need to let her have her say in this, otherwise shes gonna be traumatised twice

I also agree no one is victim blaming, what’s being said is the op needs to understand what’s actually occured here as it moved from coercion to hinting at full on rape very quickly. An erroneous accusation will blight bother their lives for ever more.

An accusation of coercion legally needs to be investigated by the police, they will speak to him, anyone they think may have information and the daughter, and examine many things, including her ability to make decisions.

The “nasty rumours” the op refered to which caused the police involvement don’t seem that bad to me, as the op is saying he said things like he never liked her or wanted to go out with her. I don’t know what the “worse” is as the op hasn’t explained just stopped at that he was saying he never liked her etc.

The op has moved back to just wanting the police to have a strong word snd not sure if was rape, so I don’t think any poster should be getting hysterical ans running round screaming rape and lashing out at other posters. It doesn’t help the op in the slightest.

@Bluntness100 @scotsllb

I am taking on board what everyone has said. Honestly, I am. It's why I posted. To get others opinions, and I appreciate them. To reiterate, I haven't called him a rapist, nor have I said I want him charged as such. I'm merely working out what to do next, for the best, for my DD.

I have held back some information. It may or may not change opinions. But I'll discuss that with the police and DD. We will take it from there. Obviously, if DD doesn't want to take it any further, then so be it.

It doesn't distract from the fact that I think his behaviour is reprehensible. His parents shirks have taught him that no means no. And if they have, and he didn't listen, then personally I think that makes him more dangerous. Especially when he reaches adulthood. If he gets away with these actions, without even a word from the police, then that's very wrong.

I don't think it was rape either and if she doesn't want the police involved I would listen to her.

It's not your fault at all OP, don't be feeling responsible. You've obviously got a great relationship. I certainly wasn't going to be talking to my mum about it when very similar happened to me when I was 15.

I am a bit confused that you're saying he didn't stop at no means no and just carried on. I thought she agreed to have sex with him after he persuaded her lots.

If she said no and he carried on that's a very different thing.

@Docsmix

I am a bit confused that you're saying he didn't stop at no means no and just carried on. I thought she agreed to have sex with him after he persuaded her lots.

If she said no and he carried on that's a very different thing.

She never agreed. She just didn't stop him. So, she feels that this is giving agreement.

Just to make clear; I don’t think I’d call it rape. But it’s definitely not a nice feeling to regret not stopping someone having sex with you.
I do think it’s coercion and emotional manipulation which should be called out and taken seriously.

The awful thing about this isn’t just that she had sex with him and felt she wasn’t able to say no, it’s the fact she did it because she was frightened he would leave her, and he did that anyway.. the following day. That’s just cruel, heartbreaking and disgusting behaviour and I can’t imagine he feelings changed overnight, he likely just wanted to have sex with her then leave her. At 14 that is just awful.

I think you’re into very grey areas. No does mean no, but she didn’t say no. Her actions could legally be construed as yes. You are into th grounds of she needs to verbally consent other wise it’s no. The law doesn’t state this, body language and actual language can both be used to give consent.

I think you’re going someplace here she is not going. And that’s when you need to pull back. Helping her understand what occured, both her part and his, and how to give consent is critical.

I think we are picking up on something that’s really complex in the adult world, let alone for children. Some people think that rape by nature is quite a violent crime, some people think that anything not enthusiastically consensual is also rape.

Consent, and enthusiastic consent, is a real issue, especially for this age group where there are all sorts of social pressures adding to the situation. Most teens (and many over the age of consent) lack emotional maturity, and as a teen myself, I had not really been taught how to stand up for myself in these situations. Definitely I would have considered ‘not minding’ something happening as being consensual (I didn’t say no), but as an adult I realise that that is also not ok. There are many situations I wish I could go back and change.

Probably the best outcome is a good talking to for the boy. A full trial will be traumatic for everyone involved, and might not actually help your daughter (what she wants is key). But I say that with the understanding that this wasn’t a physically forceful situation. Even if ‘only’ coerced, she needs to understand that his behaviour is not ok. As does he.

Thank you @cakefanatic I am slowly coming to the realisation that this is the best thing too. I have to put DD's welfare first. She is happy to speak with the Police Child Welfare Officer tonight. She is strongly inclined to say she just wants him spoken to. We will talk it through with her and take it from there.

@Bluntness100

I think you’re into very grey areas. No does mean no, but she didn’t say no. Her actions could legally be construed as yes. You are into th grounds of she needs to verbally consent other wise it’s no. The law doesn’t state this, body language and actual language can both be used to give consent.

I think you’re going someplace here she is not going. And that’s when you need to pull back. Helping her understand what occured, both her part and his, and how to give consent is critical.

She said no several times.

But then she did sleep with him so surely he assumed she changed her mind? He's 15.
He's wrong to be pestering anyone but he sounds an immature silly boy.

He needs a talking to yes about respecting others etc but all this chat of full trials and police etc is just way way off.

Your daughter has just as much responsibility to say no and if she decided to have sex because she thought "he would leave her" that's her issue to work through. She's 14 and it's a fairly common teenage scenario, I honestly cannot understand why you are so involved and jumped to call the police.

Did you not explain over and over to her that this is what some boys do because indeed so many men do this too.
How many times have we seen a man not text a woman back after sex even though he promised the world ? It's horrible but not criminal.

I don't mean that to sound harsh at all but not all nasty behaviour is criminal and she needs learn not to be peer pressured into things she doesn't want to do

Op I mean this gently but I think you need to get it clear in your own head what happened.

Let her explain it in her own words in her own time. And actually hear what she’s saying. Maybe let the child protection officer fo this with her alone, and then listen to what they tell you. It’s really important you understand her words.

You did the right thing OP. Fuck this little shit and his sniggering friends. His behaviour is not right and he needs to know it!

@scotsllb
I've told you numerous times that I didn't involve the police for this matter. I involved the police as she was receiving threats, and I was worried about her safety. They then decided that they wanted to look into the matter, based on what she told them.

Of course I have told her this. Over and over. I thought she understood. But in her own words, she was too nice, and didn't want to upset him. She knows she shouldn't have done this. We've talked about it at length.

@Bluntness100

Op I mean this gently but I think you need to get it clear in your own head what happened.

Let her explain it in her own words in her own time. And actually hear what she’s saying. Maybe let the child protection officer fo this with her alone, and then listen to what they tell you. It’s really important you understand her words.

This is exactly what I said I'm going to do. Doesn't stop me being upset about what's happened.

I really disagree with @Bluntness100 on this occasion. I keep thinking of the cup of tea explanation. You're allowed to change your mind at every and any moment.

If you don't show girls that saying no is ok and that they do have a voice then how will things ever change. And if no one talks to the police and no one is made an example of then it just stays the same.

In DDs case she has changed potentially the lives of her peers and those younger girls at her school. Everyone knows the families involved. It's been a real lesson learnt. I'm incredibly proud of her for that and pleased I stuck to my guns.

I think the idea of enthusiastic consent is possibly what we should be explaining to our kids. If they can't say yes with enthusiasm then it needs to be no (preferably with conviction).

I was coerced into sex when I was 5 by a 15 yo. It was rape obviously but it was not violent and so I didn't view it as rape to well into adulthood I think. It's when I saw my 5 yo niece that I understood. I suspect your DD will only view it as you do when she's old enough to see the ripple effect.

@scotsllb Also, I haven't talked about full trials etc. That's the last thing I want. You must be getting that from other posters.

this is going to hinge around whether or not she consented. and whether the boy understood your daughter's intentions, or deliberately ignored them.

All of this is a massive grey area and almost impossible to prove conclusively one way or the other.

If she had been saying no for weeks and didn't on that one occasion, he may have interpreted that change in behaviour as 'implied consent' , equally if she removed her own clothes rather than him doing it, which certainly in medical procedures and examinations can be legally valid. And has a certain sense to it.... If you flip the logic and take a couple who had been having consensual sex for weeks or years and one person suddenly started physically objecting by pushing the other away, how that could be seen as rape or sexual assault. Previous consent or refusal should probably be considered, but is by no means definitive, otherwise nobody would ever be able to change their mind.

You're allowed to change your mind at every and any moment

Of course. But this includes from no to yes. It is not just yes to no. The op has just said she went ahead as she was too nice and didn’t wish to upset him. This strongly indicates consent was given via her actions. Which is a legally acceptable and recognised way to consent.

The key thing here is understanding what really occured and why both children behaved as they did.

It might not seem it, but talking it through and hearing differing opinions is helping. So, thank you to everyone for taking the time to help. It's much appreciated.