Thread Four: Holding on to the end of the rope

[Pegsinarow]

Hello PoTs!

I am so very sorry to have been absent from the second half of thread three. I've been a overwhelmed by rl: some good, some bad and some a bit ugly!
I hope you are all doing as well as possible in the circumstances.

I saw thread three was on 998 posts and thought I had better start up thread four here!

I'll catch up in a bit but for now the previous threads were as follows:

Thread one here

Thread two here

Thread three here

Welcome back and feel free to vent here! And I'll try to stick around a bit more ... .

My DH has occasionally threatened to erase the phone but then we realised that we didn't have his apple ID so on the one occasion we really were ready to go nuclear that way, the plot failed. I also wonder if it could not bring on an assault if you were to do something so irrevocable as to erase the content of a large angry boy's phone.

And you could certainly get everything controlled on your wifi by a suitable product -- I know with a Netgear Orbi you can shut down the wifi to individual devices, so as long as they can't use data that used to be quite effective when ours was 14 or so. I used to do that but then he got data.

I guess I both want less phone time, and then it’s my only discipline. Tricky combo. I can turn it off from mine. I am too cowardly to do so for long- the grumbles, withdrawal of chores, schoolwork etc that result... I wonder who’s in charge. Thanks @Plumbuddle.

Hi there PoTs
Have been following this thread for a while. It has given me much needed comfort whilst I’ve been going through a difficult time with my DD14, so thanks to Pegs for starting this great thread

Aramox- I think your last sentence sums things up completely. I wonder who’s in charge here?

I’ve got 2 Dc. With the older one (now 18), we had a tricky few years and using withdrawal of tech as a sanction worked perfectly. He is now a lovely, well adjusted lad, working hard for his future
With my DD, however, it has been failing badly. Reason? 2 very different Dc with different personalities!
With my Dd, she has threatened all manner of things when I’ve withdrawn tech. So I realised a while ago, that we were going to end up in a power struggle which she would always WIN!!
That is not the message we want to give them. So I’ve had to stop that approach, and work very differently with her. More collaborative and a lot of ‘letting go’ on my part. Is it working? Too early to say and I’m certainly putting up with lots of behaviours which a year ago would have made me lose sleep. (Slacking on school work, screen addicted behaviour, not showering etc). BUT- the atmosphere at home is a bit calmer, and our relationship is slightly better with this approach. Which gives me more opportunities for an inroad for important conversations (E.g. drugs, alcohol) etc. Maybe we may get to chatting about her future one day aswell in a calm way

Handhold for all POTs. It’s not easy

Wise words @Cakeandgin3. Lots of power struggles here!

Thank you everyone for the replies. I am going to go back and try read it from the start.
My DD did not want to go to school today and has been crying all weekend non stop. I have barely slept, told her that she would have to go to counselling if she wanted me to take her seriously about leaving school. She goes to an all girls catholic school and the pressure to excel academically is OTT. I have tried to get her in to other schools but they are all full and not taking on new students due to COVID and less places.
So the big question is, how do I know when she is just being dramatic and maybe I have just fixed everything for her all her life. Do I continue to force her to go in to school even thought she is miserable or if I let her stay home is she only isolating herself even more? She said that she feels like a burden on everyone and nobody would even notice if she wasn't there. My heart is broken and I am shattered.
Sorry if this is all about my daughter but I will go back and read the whole thread but at the moment, I am just hoping for some answers.

Oh I meant to say that I got some private counselling booked for her for tomorrow.

Hi, I think I am going to go premium so I can see each person's full thread as my brain is like a sieve. @Snuggleworm, has your school got a good senco? You need to contact them asap because they should be supporting you with this rather than leaving you to decide whether to allow DD to school refuse. Apart from anything, they could get education welfare on your back and you could be held to account as parent. So if that were to be the best thing, you need to be seen liaising. But also, the senco or inclusion person ought to have advice and supports to put in place for your daughter. They will want to know if it's potentially bullying for example. You need a team around her not just a counsellor. I say this as if it's cut and dried, but it's exactly school refusal that made us change DS's school from a pressured grammar to a FE after GCSEs and it worked for him. Funnily, he is better friends with his whatsapp and instagram groups from that grammar now he has left although covid has stopped him trying to get together with them in person. My problem with allowing him to stay home was not just fear for him but also I WFH and did so before the pandemic, and I couldn't handle him lying there sleeping or on devices whilst I was swotting away -- was horrific. If I had had the time when he did this I would have made him do activities and removed all devices as part of the deal.

For me listening to the news just now, the new Covid developments underline that education is so at risk in this generation that we should not worry what they are missing in that way though. I think their social interests and goals should be the main focus, just keeping them part of the world.

Thank you so much plumbuddle for getting back to me.
I am not in the UK so our school systems may be a bit different. She has been with the school counselor before and she was very good but the school itself is def not a good fit for My dd's needs. Teachers tend to scream at the kids, they expect 100% in everything. I didn't realize at the time how strict it was. She is bright but is very nervous in school and gets frightened if a teacher shouts. She is also quite sensitive to any sort of loud noise now that I think about it.

She has no social interests at the moment as she has given up on her friends or they have given up on her. She seems so lonely all the time and of course she does not want to hang out with her parents. She has deleted all of her social media accounts too. Has given up dancing as she is lonely there too. She loves to dance and compete but that is all gone now due to covid.
I have seen her peers and how they react with her. Her close friends are fine but other teenagers seem to either disregard her or just ignore her. She seems awkward around everybody.
I actually do not really know what to do but am hoping the counselling might work.

That is fantastic that your son moving schools worked. I can't get her in to any other school in the area at the moment as they are all full. I should have listened to my best friend at the time when she advised me against the school my daughter attends at the moment. They have a very high rep to keep and a lot of their students get in to all the top colleges etc. So they are more concerned with how the school looks than the students feel if you get me.

I'm not in any way qualified but your daughter sounds like she may have Aspergers? The loud noise, dislike of harsh tones that others can cope with, peers shunning her but ok with close friends, awkward... have a look on the National Autistic Soc website, girls often escape diagnosis. If she possibly has this diagnosis then it is not the end of the world but you have to reduce the pressure and keep things routine and familiar. It's actually really easy to deal with - I know as my older son has it and is as good as gold, and very happy, but so long as one accepts he has a quite isolated life and a lot of routine. Once you change or support the external environment for an aspie, you have their issues sorted.

OMG Plumbuddle, I never ever ever thought of that. Thank you. So I will need to bring her to GP to be assessed I would imagine yes?

Depends where you are, in the UK you would start there. The GP would not assess but you would use a letter from the school to get her referred to a paediatrician. There's in the UK anyway, a huge art to getting attention paid to this and big waiting list for diagnosis. The place that diagnoses it on the NHS and privately is the Lorna Wing centre, they take 2 days and it's £3K privately. In your shoes I would call the NAS helpline (you have to wait an hour at the moment) and ask the best way to approach it and what is the sister organisation in your country. With my 22YO DS we resisted interventions til he was 12 but then got diagnosis pretty quickly from an NHS psychiatrist, only because I had loads of evidence from different sources. It involved filling in lots of diagnostic forms, having him observed on his own and in groups, but it's pretty clear to clinicians if the child has it or not. The condition is marked (in boys anyway) generally by having poor social communication, impaired ability to pick up facial and vocal cues/body language, can be an awkward gait and sensory issues with noise, learn by memory and intellect rather than intuitively, and the big one, obsessive special interests from which you can't prise them. Also big difficulty with managing activity on their own, better if directed by others. As your daughter grew up she would have got on better with adults than children, but girls don't show so much poor social ability. If she does have this condition then likely the school will not be meeting her educational needs without adaptations, they often do better in small classes with one on one tuition being the best option and a lot of time breaking away from the bright lights and hubbub, they get very overloaded with too much information.

snuggleworm - . I understand about a school not being the right fit. My dd's school is very competitive and full of smart kids and she thinks she isn't as clever etc. My dd has been having panic attacks especially in science classes. I try to help but I make the mistake of giving her advice and she got very upset saying I was mean and nagging her, and we end up arguing. I keep trying to save her but really I just need to listen. She has a counsellor and gets support from school now but I am unsure it is getting better. I offered to move her to another smaller school but she declined. I am hoping it will be ok but scared its going to be a very rocky two years for all of us. I feel very tired just thinking about it

Hi @Cakeandgin3. I can totally empathise with what you are saying about picking your battles and sanctions. We are going through exactly the same with DD. As she has no friends other than on SM and doesn't go out, then threatening to remove her phone is akin to torture in her eyes as it means she'll have no social engagement at all - which I agree is not good for her mental health, but leaves us with little options for sanctions.

She is now in close contact on SM with a boy a year older (a girl who she is friends with knows him from school so at least we know he's not a 40-year old groomer) who she wants to meet up with. All of our instincts scream to not letting this happen (he's left school and doesn't seem to be doing much, no college, no real job but 'working with his dad', she's still incredibly vulnerable after what has happened), but if we say 'no' then we are just setting up for a battle and days and weeks of shouting and non-engagement in family life. Any ideas anyone has on how to manage this would be very welcome. I'm currently thinking that we let her but make it very clear we're not happy about it. She jumps from interest in boy to boy and is desperate for a relationship - this is something I think she needs to talk to her counsellor about to understand why she feels that way. Makes us feel like we are failures as parents sometimes.

Snuggleworm I agree with Plumbuddle - definitely worth exploring if there is something else going on with your DD SEN-wise - girls present very differently with ASD (and in fact I have often wondered the same about my DD particularly given that I have Aspergers!!)

@TeenTraumaTrials
Don't be put off a boy because hes working. School is not for everyone.
I know you are only looking out for your dd.
My dd is 17 had about 5 different boys over 2 years from all different backgrounds and race. I did not judge any off themand let it run its course with each one even I didn't like them I just let it go the more you would put your foot down the more exciting it seems to them so let her go out with him.
As long as you know some basic like his age and not into drugs

Thanks @Andi2020 - I know, you're right. If we say no it will just cause problems - and I can't cope with more of those right now. She's not (I hope) stupid enough to get involved with someone who's into drugs (although I'd have said before she isn't stupid enough to do xx and she's proven us wrong).

I find all of this stuff hard as I didn't have a boyfriend until I was at University and these days it seems normal for more girls to have boyfriends (and sexual relationships) much younger - or maybe it's just me.

It is hard for parents especially if it's their oldest and we have no experience.
They think every boy Is the one
I bust laughing at some off the things my dd17 thinks she is going to marry the bf she has now maybe she will but I don't think she will.
She has caused me alot off stress over past 2 years slams doors runs away turns off location and the most annoying lying.
But when it comes to romance I let it run its course

I think @Andi2020 is right as long as you have some basic intel. When DS17 was 15 and wanted a relationship with someone he picked up online, the connection was via a music club and I demanded to contact the girl's mum, we were quite helicopterish about it and it worked, as they could not have sorted out a date for themselves anyway. We never enquired what had happened at their dates but we did keep an eye. That fizzled out. DS17 now involved with another girl online now and has been since March, they probably have been a great venting station to each other during covid and thankfully are several 100 miles apart so no chance they will meet up and hopefully it will blow over. I think if they are out and about you would ideally want to insist on phone location being on, a deadline for return, and to know they have got the other person's cv in fact I would go so far as to say the first meeting I would only allow if we were monitoring afar in case of grooming. They need to have protection available for if they do anything and most importantly know that you will collect them from anywhere and not blame them for any scrape they have got into.
You actually don't want it to be a meaningful relationship at this age so long as no-one is abusing each other.

Just letting you all know our phone policy is working really well atm in case it is any encouragement. Essentially if DS is rude to or swears at one of us my DH has agreed not to shout at him or punish, but in a businesslike way all devices bar his laptop if working online for school are removed. It used to be for a fixed time but now we just remove saying that when he calms down and engages in rational reflection with us as to why he could not contain his impulse to be nasty, he will then get them back. It's worked well for a couple of days now. If he refuses to hand them over I have managed to get them by just calmly repeating he can't escape the rules of the house, but the plan is that if he does withhold then the minute we get them, like at night, then they will be yet again held for the reflection and discussions.
Of course the adults have to be constantly available to make this work, is so damn exhausting. But is certainly nice not being verbally abused so readily these days.

Really glad to hear that @Plumbuddle.

I know it won't end up being meaningful which is why I am going to try and be relaxed (well, not totally freak out) about it.

And we need to remember that this is an extremely lonely girl who just wants someone to talk to (and cuddle, by her admission - but that's not allowed right now which is a very good thing!)

Great news on your phone policy @Plumbuddle! Good to get some ground rules back. Ds is still in school but appears to have barely any hw and so still spends hours watching netflix. ‘Too tired’ to do anything else. He seems really low but at least he’s getting up. It’s impossible to encourage him to do anything, he’s so stubborn these days- so we mostly have to leave him home at weekends. Seems all wrong.

Does anyone have experience of CAHMS? It's been suggested to try to get a referral to help dd with her panic attacks, perhaps get some CBT treatment.

Grab it! CAMHS service quality obviously depends on the quality of the practitioners but services are as rare as hens' teeth and they have a really high threshold, so if she qualifies, jump for it. In my neck of the woods the backlog is so great that DS17 has been waiting for a CAMHS NHS ADD assessment since he was 14 lolllll. We had to pay for it privately in the end so as not to lose the plot.

And CBT is said to be great. They only let you have 6 sessions but practitioners tell you one should receive more.
My advice to any parent of a teen with difficulties is grab all the assessments and treatments you can get as early as you can before they are old enough to refuse consent and resist involvement because it is with the uncool you. I wish I had done more to get treatments when DS17 was younger, including a PDA diagnosis. By the time we got him into private therapy last year, he was old enough to bunk it or otherwise sabotage it.

Hi there, so relieved to find this board. My daughter is 13 and currently awiting Camhs assessment. Her behaviour has always been challenging but this year its ramped up. Non stop cursing to me and OH, really vile langauge all the time, destroying things, throwing things at us, absolutely no regard for our shared space really. The hitting started sparodically and this year its getting more frequent. We called the police about 6 weeks ago nd they have come round to talk with her. Yesterday we had a massive row, and she lashed out punching, pinching and kicking. Ive woken up to bruises on both arms and Im in shock. I know it cant go on like this. Any advice appreicated. I feel so sad for her, for our family. I dont want to give up and I dont want this to be the norm either.