DD (15) can't keep her hands to herself

[Sarissima]

DD is 15 (16 in summer - Year 11).

I think this might take a lot of careful unscrambling, but am posting to see if anyone has any ideas which might help.

XH and I separated four years ago (due to his failure to curb his anger) and are now on amicable terms. DD and DS (17) come and go between our houses as they choose, at their request. I have got some major financial/job problems, but everything else is pretty stable now, and has been for some time.

About three years ago, though, DD started taking things from us both. Mostly trivial stuff - my decent anti-ageing cream (confused), shampoo, conditioner, chocolate. But also money (she took a very large amount from XH). And even when it's just trivial stuff, the cumulative effect is horrible (I go to get my hand cream - and it isn't there. I go to put my socks on - and they've gone. Etc). We have both spoken to her about it, repeatedly - to no avail. She simply goes into my room and helps herself to whatever she wants. Clothes, underwear (and we are four dress sizes apart) - you name it, she helps herself to it. I found one item of clothing in her bedroom, cut up (I was upset about this, as it was a present from my mum). I asked her why on earth she did it, and she said she tried it on and couldn't get it off again, so had to cut herself out of it.

I put a Yale lock on my bedroom door, but she found the key (she must have launched a sodding forensic search of the house) and had one cut for herself.

I feel as if my world is gradually shrinking as I daren't leave her in the house on her own. If I do, something is invariably missing when I get back. XH says the same. I bought something minor for DS the other day. She asked who it was for, and I said it was for him. When I went back in the kitchen, she had taken it.

I have absolutely no idea how to deal with this. I feel very cross with her. But I also feel very hurt, and frightened that she can't see why it's wrong to take things that belong to other people. She just laughs and shrugs and tells me to chill out. Is she right?

I have no idea if it's divorce-related, or if it's related in some way to her having had to suffer XH being an angry twunt for such a long time, or if I'm just being feeble (though she's always saying I'm too strict). She has a small allowance, because that's what I can afford to give her - though she is permanently angry with me about that, because all her friends have far more (this is true). That said, she is far more privileged than other people we know.

Has anyone else had this, and how did they deal with it?

You put a Yale lock on your bedroom door. That's a pretty big step to take to send a message to your own daughter about how much you want to keep her out and away from you.
The more you push her away, the more she needs to escalate her behaviour to try to make you 'see' her. You are not seeing her, you are only responding to her behaviour from a place of your own insecurity. It's a vicious cycle.
This is your issue as much as it is hers.
You need a family therapist as this is a family dynamic issue. There's no point despatching your DD off to a therapist as if it's her problem alone because it's not.
She is looking for attention from both you and your ex DH. She is trying to 'move' you so that you see her and respond to her in the way she wants. She is looking for love and connection with you but it is being expressed by behaviour that seems to contradict this.
In your post you position yourself as a victim, with your DD now being the punisher or aggressor of you. You take the position of poor me and how much you are a victim in all this, and how under threat you feel.
You are a factor in her behaviour, your DH is a factor in her behaviour. You both need to own that.
It's not at time for any sort of talk of you being 'feeble' or any sort of boo hoo I'm such a bad person self-labelling crap. You're no worse than anyone else, a number of factors are at play here and you didn't choose things to be like this.
But it is in your power to help your daughter and to repair this family dynamic for the better. At 16 she is shaping her personality now, it's an important window of opportunity. Do not see seeking help as a threat to yourself but as an opportunity for growth towards happiness and valued relationships.
Not sure if CAMHS offer family therapy but there are also Parenting Courses in some places that both you and DH can go to.

reefedsail that is a horrible suggestion and I suspect she would not forgive you for this for a long time.

But agree with seeking support from GP, family, counsellor, etc. She doesn’t sound very happy (not to excuse her behaviour in any way), and you will benefit from support with this.

Again. Not revenge. If you break something. You replace it.

That was not how you phrased it, though, as I quoted.

but surely if not first, then also... basic parenting?

How do you define basic parenting?

@SchadenfreudePersonified

I am not blaming people with ASD for criminal activities. That's a huge jump you've made there.

As far as this thread shows - OP's DD has not stolen a single thing in the eyes of the law.

I wish people wouldn't be so incredibly sensitive.

As it so happens I'm a HUGE advocate for ASD issues - plenty of family and friends on the spectrum.

I would never ever tarnish anyone with ASD. It would mean harming/discrediting my own family.

I simply meant she needs the label and that sometimes labelling can be good if it gives you access to help on the NHS. Have a friend's DD who is on the spectrum and has problems with OCD and they will start therapy soon. OCD is compulsive and the OP already said her son is on the spectrum and so is her ex and the DD's behaviour sounds like it may be compulsive. OP may well be on spectrum too - but not ever realise it. Who knows. All I know is that they need help and expert help at that.

As a first step I'd try changing the dialogue. Let her know you're on to her, in the sense of understanding where she's coming from. Make it about her thoughts and feelings rather than her behaviour.

She sees herself as the victim of the past. Sit down with the three of you - you, her and exH - and calmly tell her you understand that she's doing these things to get back at you, to punish you, to get her revenge for what she sees as ruining her life. Talk about her childhood, what she saw and heard. (I'm not suggesting washing your dirty linen in public and sharing all the gory details, just an acknowledgement that she was affected by what happened.) Explain that you don't have as much money as her friends' parents but that you do what you can. Not in a breast beating, mea culpa sort of way, but just a statement of fact. Emphasise that you can't change the past, but would like to make things better going forward. Ask her how she would like things to change. Listen to her answers, talk them through. Don't immediately leap in to tell her why something she suggests can't happen, work out how to achieve a compromise.

If you can present a united front with exH, and if she can see that she is being heard, it may be the first step towards changing her behaviour. That would be good both for your relationship, and for her as she becomes an adult and has to face other challenges. A victim mindset isn't healthy in the long term.

OP's DD has not stolen a single thing in the eyes of the law.

So if she's not stealing her mother's things, what is she doing? Because taking things without permission and with no intention of giving it back is stealing.

@BlueRussianCat

"in the eyes of the law"

What bit don't you understand? Have the police been called? Is DD in the dock? In families it's give and take. Yes this poor girl is taking more than she should but in my vocabulary it's not stealing. It's attention seeking.

And OP please don't go around spreading the news of your DD's problem to your DM and her friends/family. What a horrible thing to do - to shame her into acquiescence. She will only hate you more if you do this. Prepare for a very damaged child if you follow this path.

What bit don't you understand? Have the police been called? Is DD in the dock? In families it's give and take. Yes this poor girl is taking more than she should but in my vocabulary it's not stealing. It's attention seeking.
Oh right, well in my vocabulary it's attention-seeking through the act of stealing... Just because its stealing from her own mum doesn't make it OK, it doesn't suddenly only become bad if it's from a stranger or a shop.

How is it snide? Why should she get pocket money while destroying personal property?

I was referring to your snide post at 12.09 Bluerussian

Oh, yeah, apologies, I just get annoyed by the constant "it's never the mother's fault" when it comes to children being emotionally abused or witnessing things they shouldn't, personal experience and all that.

My sister used to steal from me all the time. I put a lock on the door and she kicked it off. Was horrible finding that my stuff had been taken, used or deliberately damaged. She knew that I didn't have very much and that I didn't want any association with anything that she had used so she'd come downstairs wearing pretty much my whole wardrobe (think the scene in Friends where Joey is wearing all of Chandler's clothes). I ended up with no clothes at all.

My mother did nothing about it at all. Sister ended up in prison (for GBH) but she stole from shops etc too in the end. Wish my mother had called the police.

Stop her allowance and start stealing her stuff instead. See how she likes it!

Sounds like she has been through a difficult time before the divorce, pretty sure that could be a reason. She must have felt powerless, suddenly she found a way to be in control.

Taking away her allowance is counter-productive, that backs her into a corner where acting out is the only response left.

But could you sit down with her and work out a payment plan which lays out how she has to reimburse you for the things she took? That leaves her with some money but also allows her to set things right.

Could you also on top of her allowance find small chores you could pay her for? Just something that gives her the feeling of decision making and control.

@lweji
If your ten year old scribbled all over the walls with crayons, would you just lock the crayons away, or would you enforce consequences? Would you say 'errr you absolutely KNOW that is wrong, what were you thinking? How are you going to fix that?' etc etc.
Its making allowances, not excuses, for past incidences and traumas.

Oh goodness...

I have read every single response, and will try to formulate something coherent tomorrow. Thank you, though, to everyone who has given their thoughts/experiences.

There is an awful lot to digest here. I agree with those who think it's a family problem in which we all play a role. The family dynamics have always been very tricky, including between DS and DD.

I can see why some are suggesting I do the same to DD to 'teach her a lesson', and 'show her how it feels' etc, but I don't think that route is for me. I have always tried to match the sanction to the crime, and to impose natural consequences. That is one of many reasons I find this so hard to deal with: I'm not sure what the natural consequence should be. If I remove DD's allowance, my fear is that she will just find another way to get money that she feels she "deserves", and which I am so cruelly taking from her, rather than reflecting on why I have taken that step. But I can also see why some people might find it helpful.

I can also see why some people might suggest telling her she's not welcome here, or only letting her be in the house when I am - but I definitely can't do this. If the problem is that she has low self esteem and is trying to somehow communicate with me, then exiling her isn't going to help.

One thing I have done differently this evening, as a direct response to numerous posts on here, is I have not referred to anything cntentious and have instead focussed on having nice evening with DD. In this case, it meant meeting her after school to sort out her faulty phone, and watching something on TV that she is watching. We don't have a TV, so she'd normally be doing that on her laptop upstairs, while I do laundry, washing up, etc. So I decided to give all the dreary jobs a miss for one night and do something she wanted to do instead, as a very small form of lovebombing.

As I say, I'll try to respond to some more points tomorrow. Thank you again for all your advice and experiences.

^contentious!

Nicely done, @Sarissima. Wishing you lots more nice evenings with your daughter.

I'm glad you were able to take a step back and approach it from a more positive angle.
Just be aware that things can still go very wrong and she may well continue her behaviour for a while or even long term. Or it may well need more than a loving approach.

I initially proposed that you sought professional help and it may well be necessary if you don't see an improvement in her behaviour.
I once told DS, when he asked, that if he wouldn't accept my rules, then he was free to live elsewhere. Not that my rules are hard to keep. They are based on mutual respect. But there are limits to relationships, even parent-child, if not necessarily to love.

Just updating (sorry - it's hard to find time as I have no internet during the day - am home early now).

I agree with all of those who have suggested some form of family counselling. I suggested it some time ago, but it had a mixed response. DS was keen. DD said she wouldn't go in. XH said it was a waste of time (he also said it would be a waste of time for him to have any kind of intervention where his anger was concerned, and look where that got him ).

I am going to try going to the GP myself to see what s/he would recommend. I did have individual counselling (NHS) after XH and I split up. While it didn't solve any problems, it did at least give me someone to talk to other than my friends (who are lovely, but not impartial!)

I can't afford private counselling, unfortunately - though if I win the lottery, I will try to persuade the rest of the family.

I am definitely inclined to think that DD is trying, in some strange way, to communicate, albeit in a destructive way. She did talk to me quite a lot last night, mostly about XH. He never in fact directed his anger at her - it was always at DS. But he is a big and intimidating man, and it would have been terrifying for a child.

I think it was Fallofrain who used the phrase 'race to the bottom'. This is how it feels, once I start locking even more stuff up, and DD starts devising ever more ingenious ways to get hold of it. This is one of the worst things about it, and one of the really useful things about this thread is that it has helped me to see this from the outside, as it were.

So there are obviously no quick fixes, but lots of food for thought. Thank you.

I always try and remember the saying about kids needing the most hugs when they least deserve it. She's definitely trying to tell you something with this behaviour. Really hope things settle down , it sounds a very difficult situation.

What you say about all the anger previously in the house is interesting, I’d try and let her know that her safety is really important to you. I’m wondering if that’s at the bottom of this. I’m glad to hear you’re moving forward though, hope it works out for you all.

It's great that you've started talking, Sarissima. I agree with you that she is trying to communicate, even if she herself doesn't understand what she's trying to say or why!

Have a wee look at ahaparenting.com for ideas on active listening - I was taken aback by what came up when I did this with my son. There's a section on teens.

www.ahaparenting.com/ages-stages/teenagers

Good luck with the counselling. It might be worth getting in touch with charities who offer support to families, might be a way to access counselling.

Well done, OP - your DD is lucky to have such a caring mum.