DD (15) can't keep her hands to herself

[Sarissima]

DD is 15 (16 in summer - Year 11).

I think this might take a lot of careful unscrambling, but am posting to see if anyone has any ideas which might help.

XH and I separated four years ago (due to his failure to curb his anger) and are now on amicable terms. DD and DS (17) come and go between our houses as they choose, at their request. I have got some major financial/job problems, but everything else is pretty stable now, and has been for some time.

About three years ago, though, DD started taking things from us both. Mostly trivial stuff - my decent anti-ageing cream (confused), shampoo, conditioner, chocolate. But also money (she took a very large amount from XH). And even when it's just trivial stuff, the cumulative effect is horrible (I go to get my hand cream - and it isn't there. I go to put my socks on - and they've gone. Etc). We have both spoken to her about it, repeatedly - to no avail. She simply goes into my room and helps herself to whatever she wants. Clothes, underwear (and we are four dress sizes apart) - you name it, she helps herself to it. I found one item of clothing in her bedroom, cut up (I was upset about this, as it was a present from my mum). I asked her why on earth she did it, and she said she tried it on and couldn't get it off again, so had to cut herself out of it.

I put a Yale lock on my bedroom door, but she found the key (she must have launched a sodding forensic search of the house) and had one cut for herself.

I feel as if my world is gradually shrinking as I daren't leave her in the house on her own. If I do, something is invariably missing when I get back. XH says the same. I bought something minor for DS the other day. She asked who it was for, and I said it was for him. When I went back in the kitchen, she had taken it.

I have absolutely no idea how to deal with this. I feel very cross with her. But I also feel very hurt, and frightened that she can't see why it's wrong to take things that belong to other people. She just laughs and shrugs and tells me to chill out. Is she right?

I have no idea if it's divorce-related, or if it's related in some way to her having had to suffer XH being an angry twunt for such a long time, or if I'm just being feeble (though she's always saying I'm too strict). She has a small allowance, because that's what I can afford to give her - though she is permanently angry with me about that, because all her friends have far more (this is true). That said, she is far more privileged than other people we know.

Has anyone else had this, and how did they deal with it?

How horrible, invasive and upsetting.

I'd change your bedroom lock and keep the key on you at all times.

Counselling for her is essential. Can you make attendance a condition of something she wants?

I think keeping it a secret is handing her control over you and fuelling the behaviour. Why would you not talk to your friends and family about this and name it for what it is? Why would you not talk to her school to check whether it happens there and make sure they're aware of her tendency? You're colluding with her if you don't talk openly and honestly about this.

She needs to understand that this is criminal behaviour, will land her with a criminal record if she doesn't stop and that you are working with her to help prevent her from ruining her life.

Are you physically scared of her at all? Would she attack you for your key? Does she lash out in anger? If so, even more urgent, serious help is needed.

My DD was very similar, aged 15. We had a chubb lock on the top of our bedroom door, and a safe to keep all my shampoo/toiletries in. It was ridiculous and I felt like a prison warder, not a parent. Her two sisters had to have locks on their doors.

She then did something silly taking something from college. Only they didn't tell her off, they rang the Police, and she was removed from her course.

Only then did it stop. Was it having a consequence? Who knows.

I might be way off but I think she is attention seeking..all be it in the wrong way as teenagers often do! I had a friend who appeared to do the same thing.She was bright ,sociable and a lovely girl outwardly but inside she was really unhappy.She blamed herself for her parents break up and thought it was her fault she couldnt keep them together.She would take things to try to make herself feel better,didnt want them didnt need them but searching for attention. Her mother in the end bought her a few nice things..proper grown up nice things,make up,cleanser.perfume.etc and tried to ward off her taking her mums things that way...it helped for a bit,,she looked after her things properly and then it all went wrong again after the novelty had worn off.She was looking to find peace within herself and nothing helped,even the taking of stuff anymore.Proper help,counscilling and therapy helped.Time to call in the proffessionals and see wht the underlining cause is.Hopefully once the source of this is found and dealt with and you might be surprised whats causing it ,,it could be way off anyones radar ,but what ever it is its a problem to her that needs addressing then she may just become a happier settled girl and be more able to deal with issues.I would remove the locks,,this is showing her you cannot trust her and that she is a bad person for doing what she is,that cannot help her esteem either causing her to at out more,,,,, I think punishments should be on hold and help gotten for her as soon as possible..

to add you cannot reason with her because she won't understand why she is doing this either yet....but punishments will never work in this case ..it will isolate her even more and that is and should be avoided at all costs...

She isn't a kleptomaniac - if she were, there would be issues at school. She is targeting you and her father. Why? She is no doubt angry about the divorce, but you seem to be minimising the likely effect of her father's anger on her during her childhood, OP. Anger is frightening as an adult, as a child it is utterly terrifying when it comes from a primary caregiver, someone on whom you are totally dependent. I would guess she is angry with her father for his behaviour and for you for failing to protect her from it.

I am therefore not surprised that she has rejected counselling centred on her. She isn't the problem here (though her behaviour is problematic). It probably makes her even angrier that your response is to seek a MH diagnosis for her. Go back to the GP and ask for a referral for family therapy because it is the family as a whole that needs help. If you have any option of funding it privately, do so.

If either or both of you has mental space for dark humour and a sense both of hope and serious peril, read Stephen Fry''s autobiography of his early years, Moab is My Washpot. He was a teenage kleptomaniac, stole credit cards from friends' parents and almost got into a big heap of trouble. Then lucked his way out of it and worked his way to Cambridge.

It might give a false sense of hope and levity, as SF was both talented and lucky. There is a sense of how badly it could have gone wrong though, so how much, given the talent, career and all, he had to lose.

It sounds like you feel so guilty for your divorce and the previous anger issues of your husband, that you let her walk all over you.

It is not your fault your husband was an ass
It is not your fault she witnessed his anger
It is not your fault you got divorced from a bad situation, you did the best you could.

Once you can fully accept this , you can start to be an effective parent, its fine to be cross when she steals and breaks your things.

If it were my DD, I would sit her down and let her know it stops now, I am done being nice about it, and list the consequences for every theft...
For every item of her sibling she takes or breaks l would take something equally precious to her.
For every item of mine she took of broken, l would take something equally important to her.
For every amount of cash stolen, l would deduct from savings or allowance and let her know why.
I would stay calm, not ever get upset of shout, just say why.

I would also prioritise counselling for her straight away if possible.

You do not have to get rid of her things but get them out of the house and don't let her know where, of if you have got rid of them.
Keep telling her actions have consequences, and in the real world she will go to prison eventualy if she continues to behave like this.
Tough love is needed, a calm aproach, and an outlet for her to talk to someone. Good luck op.

I would talk to the GP and school to see if there are any other services they can put you in touch with - or any advice they can give.

Is private counselling an option?

I'd also look into locks etc - but that's more a coping mechansim for now.

It does sound like it directed at you - designed to hurt you which is nasty to experience but we have family friends who's son did this - the trivial stuff masked the expensive items taken for drug money - hopefully not the case for you.

This one is easy, take something of hers every time. Money? make her pay it back.
Tell her to look for work, for after GCSE's my 16 year old and friends are.
Then, stop wifi, take phone away.
If she breaks something of yours, break something of hers, and find a poor excuse.
She will only learn by feeling what it's like and consequences.
Your ex needs to be as tough, would he listen to you?
My dd has gone through this too, so don't blame your situation.
Mine wasn't quite as bad, no ripping my clothes, but taking my make up and clothes.

It seems to me that she is a very sad and/or angry girl. It's clearly a call for attention, IMO, but she's getting negative attention, which may seem better than nothing to her.

I would revisit my relationship with her and see how it could be improved.
In any case, the solution may not be the most obvious because the reasons can be masked.
I'd think you'd both need help from a therapist, even if at first she doesn't open her mouth.

She sounds spoilt. You should take away her allowance. Why would you let your child be so entitled to complain that it’s not enough? Make her do chores for money and maybe she’d have more respect for its value instead of stealing other people’s hard earned money. It’s one thing stealing from you and exh but how can you know this isn’t going to escalate to stealing from the wider family/friends- even shops? It indicates a deep lack of respect for you both and I wouldn’t indulge her on that.

You sound as if you make allowances for her because you feel guilty about the divorce- you need to let go of that. Many children experience much worse than divorce and don’t go on to be disrespectful brats.

Food clothes might irk me but stealing money..major no go...i always thought all teenagers felt they were entitled but seems your dd is targeting you and your exh..stop rising to it...pretend you dont even notice..leave your bedroom door open and invite her in to help herself...dd obviously playing a game..so humour her and play it back.

Somewhere along the line, you've lost her trust and she is very very angry with you.

As PP said, the sessions with you were good at Camhs, but alone not. She wants YOU. She wants something from YOU.

Do you tell her her you love her? That she is the world to you? Have you heard of love bombing?

Have you helped her with her weight? How does a 15 year old grow to 4 sizes larger than you? She must hate being that weight and hate you for not helping her manage her own diet.

Again it sounds like a deliberate form of sabotage on her part to hate herself and be able to despise you further.

She sounds desperately unhappy and she is taking what she can to hurt you but also to show you she wants something from you.

Ask her what she wants?

In the end she wants your love and acceptance.

Her physical actions are a manifestation of her mental desires. She wants something from you. She is very angry.

You both need professional help.

I'd definitely get her 'labelled' with ASD as it may provide more avenues to understand her compulsive behaviour. She may well have some form of OCD in this area and may need mental health training to help her understand why she can't continue to do this and why it's so hurtful. But all the way along tell her you love her. Help her get her weight under control.

She needs to feel empowered. Stealing is like a sign of impotence, a back-door way to getting what you want. When you feel empowered, you don't need to steal because you trust yourself enough to go out there and make things happen in your life the way you want them to.

She needs so much help. Chronic low-self esteem. Get her into some kind of exercise plan which is shown time and time again to help with depression and low self-esteem. Help her learn to love herself.

My dd can be like this, but she's 8 adopted and has a whole host of other issues, but you have my sympathies

It probably is all about control for her but at that age she still needs to understand boundaries. The trouble with consequences is that it may make her deny when she takes things, but she does need to understand it's wrong. I'd get together with her father and thrash out a schedule for when she's at yours and when she stays with him, one week in, one week off (this will give you a rest from her behaviour), letting her decide might not be a good idea. Some dc want control but can't handle it. She needs to understand you're the adult, she's still the child.

Have a think about what to do and agree with your ex, implement changes at the same time as him, maybe do it whilst she's at school. She'll see you both as a unit then, not people who can be played off against each other. Suggestion below

Get another lock for your bedroom door, maybe a key code one so no key needed

Remove phone, WiFi and allowance for a set time per item that goes missing - agree ex does the same

Lock away valuables in a safe and always put your bag etc in your locked room

Get another lock for your other dc bedroom

Even a lock on the fridge

Remove EVERYTHING from communal areas, WiFi router, ornaments etc and out in a locked room. Leave sofa and a telly, the same with the kitchen and dining room. Will mean you live in a shell for a bit

Buy cheap shampoo, soap to leave in the bathroom and put all nice stuff in a locked room, if she steals this then there's no shampoo, she can buy it out if her allowance, agree the same with your ex

Time to get smart and get hard. Hopefully your ex will do the same

Does she take things from school, other peoples houses? If not then it's unlikely to kleptomania and more likely to be a response to all the things going on.

Things like cosmetics, food etc I don't see as stealing. You live in the same household. Money of course is different. Could it be that she doesn't feel she belongs anywhere and by taking things, then being told off is reconfirming that she's not a member of the household? Does she have access to her own 'stuff'? Could you get a shared box and put things in it? If she's 4 sizes bigger than you then that must be upsetting for her. Perhaps she's using/ taking your things to try and emulate you?

But when there are any kind of sanctions, she somehow manages to turn herself into the victim, so I have to be careful not to end up putting her in a position where she can feel hard done by.

What if she does? That is the default position for many teenagers anyway.

Yes it is obviously attention seeking. I can see why pp's suggestion of joint counselling might be useful, as well as one-to-one, to give her her own space to vent and her own personal 'helper', if possible?

She probably doesn't see you as a victim of your ex at all but as having colluded with him against her. Understanding a bit more about your pov might really make a difference.

Distraction seems the other obvious tactic. Is there something you'd both enjoy doing together, that you could start doing regularly? So you have positive contact to look forward to. Eventually that might displace the negative demands for your attention.

OP didn't say her dd is overweight, she said she's a foot taller then her, so inevitably a bigger clothes size.

The other option, particularly if she's taking money, is that she's doing drugs.
Either way, I don't think it's a matter of punishments.

I think she is also punishing you both as well as attention seeking.

I would go down the route of intensive psychiatric help rather than police. I think there are deep issues to unpack and she needs proper help

Children 'borrow' stuff, clothes, shampoo etc all the time. Have a chat and buy her some 'special' products of her own. Then 'borrow' them without asking. She'll be annoyed and then you can discuss why one should ask first. Try say yes when she does ask, for the first few times even if it's a pain. Enjoy!

But when there are any kind of sanctions, she somehow manages to turn herself into the victim, so I have to be careful not to end up putting her in a position where she can feel hard done by.

This is why earning your allowance via good behaviour credits (as opposed to having your allowance taken away due to bad behaviour) is such a useful strategy.

It works in the short term as being rewarded makes you feel good and it works in the long term because if you are really consistent it will map a new pathway in the brain.

The system we worked out for my son gave him the opportunity to ‘earn’ around £21 a week (10 potential credits per day, each worth 30p). Credits were earned for things like respecting other people’s possessions, not arguing with me before school, getting homework done, going to bed on time etc. We’d tot it all up on a Saturday morning and he’d get whatever he’d ‘earned’.
Each day began with a clean slate, which helped enormously, because if it’s Monday and you’ve already been told you won’t be getting your allowance on Saturday, what incentive is there to behave for the rest of the week?

If it was Kleptomania surely she would do it everywhere.
She is doing this to punish her parents.

She takes something of yours. Go and tell her she now owes you so replace it with something she treasures.

If she can't be trusted in the house she leaves when you do. You lock the door and she can return when you do.

Do the same to her. She will soon stop when it's her things that go missing. And I'd also not let her leave the house until I had that key back from her.