DD (15) can't keep her hands to herself

[Sarissima]

DD is 15 (16 in summer - Year 11).

I think this might take a lot of careful unscrambling, but am posting to see if anyone has any ideas which might help.

XH and I separated four years ago (due to his failure to curb his anger) and are now on amicable terms. DD and DS (17) come and go between our houses as they choose, at their request. I have got some major financial/job problems, but everything else is pretty stable now, and has been for some time.

About three years ago, though, DD started taking things from us both. Mostly trivial stuff - my decent anti-ageing cream (confused), shampoo, conditioner, chocolate. But also money (she took a very large amount from XH). And even when it's just trivial stuff, the cumulative effect is horrible (I go to get my hand cream - and it isn't there. I go to put my socks on - and they've gone. Etc). We have both spoken to her about it, repeatedly - to no avail. She simply goes into my room and helps herself to whatever she wants. Clothes, underwear (and we are four dress sizes apart) - you name it, she helps herself to it. I found one item of clothing in her bedroom, cut up (I was upset about this, as it was a present from my mum). I asked her why on earth she did it, and she said she tried it on and couldn't get it off again, so had to cut herself out of it.

I put a Yale lock on my bedroom door, but she found the key (she must have launched a sodding forensic search of the house) and had one cut for herself.

I feel as if my world is gradually shrinking as I daren't leave her in the house on her own. If I do, something is invariably missing when I get back. XH says the same. I bought something minor for DS the other day. She asked who it was for, and I said it was for him. When I went back in the kitchen, she had taken it.

I have absolutely no idea how to deal with this. I feel very cross with her. But I also feel very hurt, and frightened that she can't see why it's wrong to take things that belong to other people. She just laughs and shrugs and tells me to chill out. Is she right?

I have no idea if it's divorce-related, or if it's related in some way to her having had to suffer XH being an angry twunt for such a long time, or if I'm just being feeble (though she's always saying I'm too strict). She has a small allowance, because that's what I can afford to give her - though she is permanently angry with me about that, because all her friends have far more (this is true). That said, she is far more privileged than other people we know.

Has anyone else had this, and how did they deal with it?

Can you take her to the GP for a mental health referral?

Firstly, change the lock on your bedroom. I'd put a digilock on (the code ones) - we have these on our garden gates. You can get them from Screwfix and they aren't difficult to install. As a PP has suggested, put it up at waist height so that she cannot see the code. It's also better in the event of a fire as if you are in your bedroom, it's a thumb latch on the other side so easy to get out.

Secondly tell your DD that she has a choice - she engages with the counselling team and gets some help, because if she doesn't then you will go to the school, your neighbour and her friends parents to tell them what is going on and the fact that she is a thief.

Finally tell your XH what you are doing so that he can make sure he is on the same page.

Well since she isn't cooperating with counselling you're a bit stuck on that front.

Have you ever called it stealing? Sit her down, tell her it's theft, take privileges away. She pays to replace any destroyed items, even if that's you taking it in 'kind' by stopping pocket money etc. Your Ex needs to be on the same page. The risk is, of course, that she starts shoplifting.

I'd get counselling for yourself. You may not be able to help her, as she doesn't want help she just wants to get away with it.

I would second the call for professional help. A bit of money or make up hear or there could be typical teenage selfishness but she's obviously going to a lot of effort to pilfer stuff she couldn't possibly even want. She probably doesn't even know what's driving this behaviour but she's certainly crying out for help loud and clear. Good luck OP it sounds like a highly stressful situation but you sound on top of it and desperate to help.

Poor girl,she sounds really unhappy. Happy children don't steal from their family. Sounds like she's desperate for attention. I agree with asking why she's doing it. Definitely get a new lock,I don't really understand why you haven't already.

There is a type of counselling where the therapists work with the parents and teach them how to create boundaries that encourage good behaviour.

It’s called Multi Systemic Therapy (MST) and it’s particularly suited to teenagers who are at risk of criminally offending. Some areas offer it on the NHS but it is a big time commitment (2/3 x weekly for 5/6 months).

Your daughter’s CAMHS refusal may make your family into good candidates (you’ve tried other services and she wouldn’t engage). If your area doesn’t do MST look into family therapy (MST is a combination of family and cognitive behaviour therapy).

A non-emotional system of penalties that fit your daughter’s poor behaviour, such as earning her allowance through good behaviour credits, will teach her brain new and better pathways when it comes to risk/reward.

So the sessions with you both were productive but by herself were not. I’d say that’s your answer. She’s desperate for you to hear something.

The fact that you’re upset about her taking the little you have means she’s having a big effect on you. Go back to therapy for both your sakes.

You say she has told you that she feels you owe her something- I think this is the key here.

Have you sat her down and spoken to her? Why does she feel like you’ve ruined her life? Why does she feel like you owe her something and why does that materialise into her stealing things?

When she’s explained this and you’ve had a heart to heart, remind her that stealing things isn’t causing any positives in this situation and how upset you feel by it. You both need to be fully honest with each other.

Perhaps you can start this conversation by asking her if she’ll spend the day with you- ask her where she would like to eat, ask her if there’s anything she needs and go buy it together.

It will soften her up enough to want to open up to you.

Good luck.

Could you afford some family therapy. I know your dd didn't engage with the nhs therapist but if you went together then she might respond to things you were saying to the therapist and you might get to the bottom of things. Your dd may have a lot of built up resentment about her lack of control in your family situation that she is not aware of, it could be about exerting control and being top dog, it could be "payback", she probably has no idea why she is doing it but getting things off her chest in a "safe" environment with the therapist there as calming influence might help.

I wouldn't "sweat the small stuff" and I'd confront her when I was very calm and use a low voice, tell her you are sad because you wanted to use the x,yz and it was agift but if she had asked you would have been happy to share. I'd leave you door open as I think a locked door will just present her with a challenge and be goady. Just keep your money etc on you at all times, even if you end up wearing a body belt and let the rest go. I know it's hard not to get angry but think you neeed to pretend you have a shield around yourself and be bullet proof and don't get emotional in front of her.

Give her praise for any tiny thing she does that could merit it and show her how glad you are she has come to stay and reiterate how much you love her. Talk to her about your financial situation and why you can't give her more allowance and let her know if you could you would love to give her more. Hold the line.

Good luck.

She sounds very angry. Her comment to you about just chilling is designed to upset you and make you question yourself rather than to excuse her own stealing IMO. The cutting of the clothes your mum gave you was, again, a deliberate act to hurt you.

Have you been able to have a proper sit-down talk with her - not accusations, just an exploratory talk giving her a chance to offload her feelings eg about the separation? Part of this talk (after you’ve given her a good chance to reveal what’s driving this) could be mentioning speaking to the GP if the behaviour continues.

It sounds very upsetting for you and it must be hard to deal with without alienating her when she clearly needs support.

Decent locks for your and DS room and strip hers beyond the very basics. See how she likes being stolen from.

Firstly, change your lock on your room and keep the key with you at all times. Give DS a lock on his room and a key with the same instructions.

This - keep the keys on a ribbon round your neck if necessary.

This has nothing to do with ASD - she is (for whatever reason) a very angry young woman and is taking it out on you and your ex.

It isn't kleptomania- kleptomaniacs steal anything and everything - they don't target "social" stuff. What she is doing isn't beyond her control - she apparently doesn't steal from anyone except you and your ex, and she steals and damages stuff she knows will upset you.

She does need some sort of counselling, I think - and I would probably go down this route before shaming her in front of family/ friends by telling everyone what she is doing. However, if counselling doesn't help, I would tell people- and say to her "I can't let you babysit for X because you steal. It's not fair on X and her family." Warn her that she won't be able to get a p/t job if it becomes know that she is an opportunist thief (I know she isn't- yet - but it is a threat you could possibly use to make her think about what she is doing, and the effect it is having on you).

And TBH - I know this is immature and spiteful, but if she damaged something of mine (deliberately, obviously), I would get something of hers that she treasures and I would cut it up/ smash it - whatever. And tell her why.

This could very easily escalate her behaviour, though - but personally, I would fight a war of attrition if necessary.

Oh and I think you should tell everyone she comes into contant with. She’s probably stealing from them but they haven’t noticed yet which you are complicit in!

My daughter did a bit of this as a teenager. Not all the time, and mostly clothes, make-up etc. I tried buying doubles - one for me and one for her, but mine still ended up in her room. I tried sanctions and I tried talking it through.

When confronted, she would often make a joke of it. Our relationship was a bit up and down, and that was stressful for both of us. She's the youngest of four and her 'borrowing' was just one of the things that was going on at the time. We'd moved to the other end of the country, so new school and friends for her and new jobs and lifestyles for us.

Looking back, it doesn't seem a big deal, but it was hugely frustrating at the time. I'd go to wear something and it would be screwed up on her floor. I'd go to bake brownies and the chocolate would be done. But, in the end, it became a family joke. I'd buy something, and she'd say, "Oooh, that looks nice .." or she'd say, "So, your latest hiding place ..." and I'd know what was coming.

My husband felt it was the wrong approach - he wouldn't have tolerated his things being used and didn't think I should. I could see his point, but i only had the energy for so many arguments every day, so I let it go. Ten years on, she is mortified when reminded and is hugely embarrassed by what she did. She says sometimes she was angry with me and didn't care, sometimes she felt guilty but did it anyway and sometimes she just wanted what she wanted.

It won't last forever, and I'd be wary about making too big a thing of it. Unpleasant teenage behaviour isn't always a mental health issue. Sometimes it's just a manifestation of the overwhelming emotional and hormonal upheaval hitting them.

Lots of people have said this already but I would go down the help/counselling route to start with.
I wouldn’t stop the allowance for now as I imagine it would cause resentment towards you and she would possibly steal even more money from you. You could think about asking her for the money for particular items that she steals but I would start with counselling to get to the root of the issue.
Good luck OP.

I would firstly change the lock so she cannot hey in. Then, each time she steals I would with hold however much it costs to replace that item until you can purchase another one for yourself.

I think speaking to school ASAP is a good step. Personally, I also think contacting the police is quite a good route, especially before she is 16. A talking to from a PCSO about the possible consequences of a theft conviction might give her the shock she needs.

Sooner or later she is going to end up in a scenario where the victim of her thefts (let's say it like it is) is not going to care about her troubled childhood and will call the police.

My sister used to steal as a teenager. Mostly from me, her slightly older sister. It was exhausting and exasperating. I shared a bedroom with her. It’s horrible feeling like nothing is safe. Suggestions of lockable boxes etc and even the bedroom only go so far, you can’t keep all your possessions in there at all times; and what kind of life is it to keep everything under lock and key to win the game. It’s horrible. I hated her for it and out relationship has never really recovered.
She did go through a spate of shop lifting and later stole money from 2 part time jobs she had as a teen.
I think it stemmed from insecurity. If I had anything nice that she didn’t she couldn’t bear it and there was an element of wanting to be more like me. We also had very limited “stuff” at home because finances were tight in our family, and she and I both wanted to fit in as teens.
My mum got it. But when she’d try and explain to others they’d be all “oh sisters take each other’s stuff all the time, it’s normal!”
It wasn’t normal, if I accused her when something when missing she would rage and scream in denial and at the most unjust accusations levelled against her - even if we found the items in her bag or pointed out she was wearing it!
In the end it was the reason my mum asked her to leave home at 17. Although I think my mum regrets that now, she still says “what else could I do?”
She has a relatively good job and stable income now but I wouldn’t be surprised if she still took stuff that she wanted that she thought was out of reach for her. She also lives beyond her means a lot of the time.
Sorry no advice there but lots of empathy!

Change the lock on your bedroom door and keep the key on your person. If everything that she takes a fancy to is in your bedroom including your handbag then she cannot access it. Place anything else of value in the bedroom. Stop all allowances and privileges, inform her that improvement of behaviour is how they get returned. Stand firm on every condition that you put in place.

Sometimes you need to bring things to a head in order to get proper help from services.

Agree with what Herocomplex said. I think she's desperately unhappy and needs your help. If therapy was helpful when you both went, can you do that again?

Counselling. Her behaviour is a symptom, you need to find the root cause.

My DS1 did this.. not makeup, but anything else he fancied, including large amounts of cash, and it took a while before we realised.. the odd £5 here £10 there and eventually he emptied my piggy bank that I had saved hundreds in. He wasn't suffering any trauma other than being a teenager.. we were (and are ) a close, happy family.
He was just a ball of rage against the world and seemed to feel no responsibility for his actions. (he also seemed to hate us and punched holes in the walls in his tempers)

We took the appoach of locks on everyone's doors and a combination safe, and grey rocked his attempts to provoke us.. which was difficult as he would goad us at every opportunity. I honestly thought we'd have to throw him out by 18. BUT he got an evening job at 16 and it was the turning point.. he was busy, he had his own money (he had an allowance before that) and he had to be a bit less selfish because he was doing an adult role.

Gradually it stopped, and now he (26) says he is horrified at how he was, and doesn't know WHY he just felt angry all the time and didn't care. He's a lovely hard working kind man now who I trust completely.

But having to have everything locked down was a miserable period. He wouldn't engage in therapy and we just had to ride it out.

My sister used to do this when we were teens. My parents just shrugged it off. When she did it later on, I threw her out of my house and said she could never visit me again. She didn't, although we are now friends again.

In hindsight, I think it was a desperate cry for attention. Our Dad always favoured me (we were very alike in interests) and we had 2 younger brothers who got Mum's attention. I think she just got forgotten, so she 'punished' us, albeit unconsciously.

I'm not sure what to suggest, but it could well be related to the divorce, in that she feels a lot less secure. I suspect counselling might help.

it is totally divorce related and she is doing this because she is mad at you.
But there are other issues - helping yourself to food shouldn't be an offence in your own home.