DD (15) can't keep her hands to herself

[Sarissima]

DD is 15 (16 in summer - Year 11).

I think this might take a lot of careful unscrambling, but am posting to see if anyone has any ideas which might help.

XH and I separated four years ago (due to his failure to curb his anger) and are now on amicable terms. DD and DS (17) come and go between our houses as they choose, at their request. I have got some major financial/job problems, but everything else is pretty stable now, and has been for some time.

About three years ago, though, DD started taking things from us both. Mostly trivial stuff - my decent anti-ageing cream (confused), shampoo, conditioner, chocolate. But also money (she took a very large amount from XH). And even when it's just trivial stuff, the cumulative effect is horrible (I go to get my hand cream - and it isn't there. I go to put my socks on - and they've gone. Etc). We have both spoken to her about it, repeatedly - to no avail. She simply goes into my room and helps herself to whatever she wants. Clothes, underwear (and we are four dress sizes apart) - you name it, she helps herself to it. I found one item of clothing in her bedroom, cut up (I was upset about this, as it was a present from my mum). I asked her why on earth she did it, and she said she tried it on and couldn't get it off again, so had to cut herself out of it.

I put a Yale lock on my bedroom door, but she found the key (she must have launched a sodding forensic search of the house) and had one cut for herself.

I feel as if my world is gradually shrinking as I daren't leave her in the house on her own. If I do, something is invariably missing when I get back. XH says the same. I bought something minor for DS the other day. She asked who it was for, and I said it was for him. When I went back in the kitchen, she had taken it.

I have absolutely no idea how to deal with this. I feel very cross with her. But I also feel very hurt, and frightened that she can't see why it's wrong to take things that belong to other people. She just laughs and shrugs and tells me to chill out. Is she right?

I have no idea if it's divorce-related, or if it's related in some way to her having had to suffer XH being an angry twunt for such a long time, or if I'm just being feeble (though she's always saying I'm too strict). She has a small allowance, because that's what I can afford to give her - though she is permanently angry with me about that, because all her friends have far more (this is true). That said, she is far more privileged than other people we know.

Has anyone else had this, and how did they deal with it?

I'd definitely get her 'labelled' with ASD

FFS!!!

Stop blaming ASD - most people on the autistic spectrum are, if anything LESS dishonest than the general population because lying and dissembling do not come easily to them!

I get sick of this "labelling". ASD is NOT a gateway to criminal, or even anti-social, behaviour. It's a problem relating to people socially, and reading the subtleties of communication - taking things literally, sometimes becoming overly-interested in some topics t the point of obsession .

IT'S NOT CRIMINAL TENDENCIES!!!

I agree that she's punishing her parents. For her sake and her parents' the OP should work to identify exactly what she's angry about and defuse that anger.
Any punitive measures only scratch the surface. Revenge makes it worse.
At worst, with punishments and unable to express her anger, she could turn the rage on herself and start punishing herself.

Again. Not revenge. If you break something. You replace it. That's not revenge. It's even in the Criminal justice system.

I get sick of this "labelling". ASD is NOT a gateway to criminal, or even anti-social, behaviour. It's a problem relating to people socially, and reading the subtleties of communication - taking things literally, sometimes becoming overly-interested in some topics t the point of obsession

Thank you SchadenfreudePersonified I have ASD and I am bloody sick of it being trotted out as a reason for all sorts of hideous behaviour. As a general rule, we are not good disemblers and will follow rules/laws blindly! No stealing! I've never even taken a pencil from IKEA.

As horrid as it sounds i would remove temptation for stealing then try and work on the underlying cause. Id Get a new lock, and work under the assumption nothing is safe so things like purses etc might have to stay in the car.

I agree that it sounds like a hurt kid trying to get attention any way they can negative or positive and trying to either destroy anything nice or trying to surround herself with things that are meaningful to other people. Whatever it is its a symptom of something.

Id be channeling her towards positive things like hobbies etc. Making sure that life is balanced. Does she get 1:1 time with both you and dad?

I read there was a previous cahms referral, could you try something a bit different? Sadly its likely to be privately but if you could find some sort of family work to open up the communication then your making good progress

Obviously i dont know your situation so you could be doing all this. Im also assuming stealing is exclusively in the house?

@stilldoesntknowwhatshappening

I think the challenge with that sort of approach though is that it can be a race to the bottom.

Shes angry and taking it out, you get angry and take away things, she gets angrier and all of a sudden has nothing to lose.

If shes coming from a place of anger or hurt then it will just fuel that feeling of injustice

I dont necessarily disagree with the having to replace, but how likely is it at her age that she will be able to do that? And how would you "make" her?

She can be angry. She's allowed to be angry. Growing up is realising that it's on you to deal with that.

I'm not much of an expert (one of mine has a few traits, but pretty certain he wouldn't get a diagnosis) but this really doesn't seem something that would likely be related to ASC, whether she has it or not.

Absolutely counselling/therapy for her, and family therapy for all of you. This isn't normal in any shape or form, and it does sound like behaviour targeted at you two via which she is attempting to articulate something. Is she trying to symbolically 'get back' the security she felt she lost either with your XH's behaviour or with your break-up (as necessary as that sounded) or both? Or it could be a 'you took this from me, therefore I will take these things from you' thing. The fairness/rationality or otherwise of her feelings don't come into it.

I put a Yale lock on my bedroom door, but she found the key (she must have launched a sodding forensic search of the house) and had one cut for herself.

I think the OP has been trying to remove temptation and TBH that's not a sudden tempation I'll give in and take it that's planning and putting some work into stealing from the OP.

That's why I think the OP needs to try again with getting outside support.

It is not your fault your husband was an ass
it is not your fault she witnessed his anger
It is not your fault you got divorced from a bad situation, you did the best you could.

Of course not, it never is.

The "Facts for Familes" sheet is good but it's all about stealing from outsiders. This is different. Stealing from family is often a (childish) sign of anger. There are not things she really needs, or maybe even wants - you've identified that she is taking them because you want them, or her brother wants them. She may not even know what she is so angry about, but in a very childish way she is trying to punish you all for something.

I think Herocomplex is onto something. DD was OK in therapy while you were there but had nothing to say alone. Your DD has expressed anger with you for "ruining her life" and yes I know that's drama-llama but at the same time it could also be a genuine expression of her feelings. She does have very real reasons to feel angry at the world. And it's not clear what you (or she!) can do with/about that anger. I think you need some family therapy so you can all look at it and deal with it.

And I know this is going to sound silly but... do you think it would help if you said "what's mine is yours, help yourself"? Instead of shrinking your world, leave it wide open. And cheerfully "I'm glad you like the bath oil, I'll need to get some more soon" It's not forever, in three years she'll be a indepedent adult.

If she has an ASC then that needs to be recognised and supported, even if the stealing is not directly caused by the ASC. Sure, it might be very nice for you to have one "normal" child but maybe she can't fulfil that role in your life and that is a source of massive stress and insecurity to her. Or maybe she doesn't have an ASC at all but she feels inside that having a disability would get her something from you, some tolerance and understanding of angry feelings and bad behaviour, that she thinks you have given to her father and brother because they have diagnoses and she feels you wont give to her because she doesn't.

I might ask my mum what she thinks, once I have steeled myself for a lecture on why it's all my fault!!

Your own mother sounds worse than useless. You seem to be surrounded by angry people who blame you for things. And your mother seems to have primed you for such a life. Have you had any therapy yourself?

I dont necessarily disagree with the having to replace, but how likely is it at her age that she will be able to do that? And how would you "make" her?

Um, you remive her pocket money/allowance each month and use it to save up to buy your destroyed object back, and she gets no allowance money until that point.

Unnecessarily snide, BlueRussian

For a start, don't use the word steal. Try borrowing instead, so that she has a chance of returning it and it's not as negative.

She's not borrowing though, why go softly softly anf try and minimise her behaviour? When you borrow something you ask first.

How is it snide? Why should she get pocket money while destroying personal property?

Stephen Fry went to Cambridge in the late 70s - after three attempts at studying for his A-Levels and serving some time on remand for theft.

It was a completely different era.

@Sarissima It's a mental health issue as others have said. Talk to your GP and your DD ought to be referred to a psychiatrist.

This is not just 'stealing'. It looks like attention seeking behaviour and a cry for help for something she isn't getting. Maybe it's her way of controlling you all.

As a family, you need professional help from MH experts.
It's a disorder she has like an eating disorder, or self harming.

You might start with phoning MIND and asking if they can point you in the right direction.

I'm sorry if I missed it, but just to clarify, is there any actual consequence? You would apply consequences to toddlers for stealing or breaking your belongings (age appropriate obviously), but your teenager doesn't seem to be getting any consequence? On a very basic level, why is that not the first response? Genuinely confused by this. Ie, she cut your shirt up, so she gets zero allowance that week/month until its paid for to replace... Even 'accidents' have natural consequences, so I think to call it revenge is pathetic. Its not revenge, its real life. What's her incentive to stop??

I'd ask the GP for a CAMHS referral and try some love-bombing in the meantime.

Mental health issues are not a free pass for stealing without facing consequences. Op needs to take away pocket money and ground this child to make her face upto the repercussions of her actions. Not having provided firmer boundaries is what has led to this situation

I have always read that persistent theft from parents like this in the absence of drug or gambling problems, is always a sign of unhappiness and a search for love. Revenge or punishment will make this worse. You need to get to the bottom of how she is feeling and address the underlying issues. Maybe try love bombing her to start with and then try talking to her about how she is feeling about her life generally.

I think it's kleptomania Aswell

though she's be furious with me for telling anyone.

& THERE is your lever, OP.

Despite flaunting her theft & shrugging off any attempts to get her to see how serious & wrong her actions are, she knows that she's doing wrong, & would be "furious" (ashamed?) if anyone else knew about it.

Obviously she's doing it as a compensation for feelings she probably cannot begin to process around her parents' divorce & her dad's anger issues. You both 'owe her, for fucking up her life' ... has she had any therapy? would she be open to it?

I would have another discussion with her about it. Tell her that her thieving is disresepctful & unacceptable, & that you are concerned that if she continues it into her adult life & outside of her parents homes that she will be comrpomising her life chances. That you expect her to stop, immediately, & that if she does not, you will have no option but to ask friends & relatives for advice about why DD is behaving so badly & what needs to be done about it.

Maybe that will give her pause for thought.
Maybe it will open further dialogue, & get her to talk about her feelings & why she has to act out such aggressive kleptomania.
It might backfire - she may become even angrier & more defensive, she is likely to hurl accusations at you & inform you how her behaviour is all your fault - so you need to be prepared for that, but honestly you also need to change tactics because right now your girl is just not listening to you, & is playing you & her dad for mugs.

I think your parents separating when you’re 11 is pretty tough. Puberty, hormones, yr6 is notoriously difficult especially fir girls & their friendships, yr7 big changes in schooling. Then she had the difficulties with her Dads attitude/behaviour- but the mixed emotions of still loving him. She’s been allowed to come & go as she pleases between your houses and maybe had fewer boundaries than might have given her more security (sometimes they just need boundaries to push against) so maybe now she’s working through a lot of that, now she’s a but older? Kids can say nasty spiteful things, but often there’s message in there....perhaps she feels like you ruined her life separating and that if you’d stayed together she might have nicer things and a bigger allowance, like her friends?

However, you the right thing getting him out ofyour life - so don’t feel you didn’t.

Do you think he’s like that with her, but pressures her into staying there? And she doesn’t know how to say no to him?

I actually wouldn’t put a lock on the door. What I would do is take any valuables to store at your mums for a while.

I would talk to her about what she’s doing and why. Try to come at it from a ‘I can see you are hurting, what’s going in’ pov, rather than telling her off for her (awful) behaviour, but be clear things need to change, but that you want to help her and you want her to be happy.

If you get told to f’off or stonewalled, then I’d book some more joint counselling sessions as they seemed to help. Perhaps there’s a charity that offer them discounted and perhaps her Dad will help fund them. Would he contribute to pocket money?

Honestly I don’t think think punishment is the best course of action here .

Good luck 🌷

Can we also stop claiming NATURAL consequences cannot coincide with 'love bombing'. That's bullshit. The two can and should be implemented side by side. Also got to laugh at all these Internet psychiatrists. Who knew it was such an easy career choice... All you need is a little time on Mumsnet and tada! Qualified to diagnose! Take her to a doctor (particularly for cahms support on her childhood traumas) by all means, but surely if not first, then also... basic parenting?