Total breakdown of relationship - how can I fix this?

[anorak]

As I'm sure you guessed, useless anorak and her 15 year old daughter again.

My daughter, my beautiful first child, seems to hate myself, dh, dd2 and at times even 4 year old ds. She is manipulative, abusive, foul-mouthed and bullying. I have tried to ignore her behaviour and try to ride the storm but if I do she kind of makes sure she pushes things until I have to do something.

I see a girl who is deeply damaged by some things her father did to her years ago. Things dh and I went to a lot of trouble to ensure could never happen again. I have been there for her throughout trying to help her get over the damage but she says she is fine it is just the rest of us. Her constant refrain is 'I don't f*ing care'.

She has been saying for a long time that she no longer wants to babysit or help around the house for her allowance and recently I complied with her requests for Saturday nights out with her friends. Now she says no more babysitting unless she is paid by the hour. I refused to do this since it disconnects her from being part of the family and she doesn't see the way we do things for one another. So we have decided no more chores or babysitting and no more allowance.

I can do the chores myself and hire a babysitter, but I am so sad that she is totally rejecting us as a family. She is trying to get a job at Sainsbury's and while I know this may be a good thing for her I long for her to do it WITH our support. But she is doing it to gather money to free herself from us.

Last night DD2 caught her stealing money from a purse of mine. When I confronted her she talked to me as if I were an evil sadist to be accusing her. But money was missing so I know she took it. DD2 was called a 'lying fing bh'.

I am at the end of my tether. She is breaking my heart. She is using every chance to hurt me in any way she can and I am not sure how much more I can take. I can't stop crying and feel I am greiving for something I have lost. Even if she ever stops being like this I am reaching the point when I won't be able to forgive.

I have told her I want her either to start treating the rest of us like human beings or move out when she reaches 16. She seems keen for the latter and sounds totally determined to live in squalour and loneliness rather than accept the support and help we long to offer.

I know she is punishing me for what her father did to her but for how much longer? She will kill me before she forgives me.

Oh anorak, I've got nothing to offer you but huge huge hugs.

So sorry to hear you're all going through this. I'm no expert on teenagers as my boys are very young. I hope you get some good advice.

One thing that did stand out in your post is the fact you said she should move out when she's 16 if she doesn't change. I feel that your daughter is very very sad and doesn't feel loved even though you obviously do. Is there any chance you and her could go away alone for a weekend? This would show her she is important even though you don't like her behaviour. It wouldn't have to be anywhere posh just somewhere to think.

Or what about going to a mediator? Or have you tried that?

I went on a course of counselling for her, with her, but she refused to co-operate with it in any way. She refuses to admit there is any problem. I have asked her what she wants me to be like but she doesn't have an answer.

She'd never agree to go away with me for a weekend .

By the way I told her if she didn't change she could move out at 16 because I really cannot live like this any more, not to try and shock her. I have told her that dh and I will always be here for her and that if she does move out we will still want to be supportive.

I keep racking my brain, thinking, where is the key? Where is the magic action or word that will let me in to her and allow her to accept my love and help? Or should I accept that I am powerless? It's hard to let go of a beautiful and damaged daughter when you know she is set on self-destruct. Yet everything I do to try and get closer results in her shrinking further away from me, as if I were made of poison.

Awww this is so sad Are you sure she wouldn't go away with you? What if you went to see a Mner and said you were a bit nervous going on your own as you don't know the person and her family and would she come too? Sounds silly I suppose but you never know.

Do you talk calmly to her? or do you shout? Maybe she feels like she's an adult now even though she's only 14. They seem so much more grown up than when we were young

Anorak - no direct experience (except for living in a house with a similar teenager - daughter of a friend - many years ago...) All I can offer, and it may be cold comfort, is after some particularly cr*ppy years when she did it all (ran away, left home...you name it), she turned into a lovely adult - her mum and dad went through hell - but, like you, were always there for her...
Unfortunately I don't think there is a 'key' if only

Agree with Blackduck, you might just have to sit it out, which is horrible I know . What you could do, though, is try counselling purely for you, to be able to cope with her better IFSWIM i.e. not to try and change her, but not to become so upset yourself. Not sure I'e explained that very well... All you can do is keep repeating that you're there for her and you love her. Sooner or later, she'll have the maturity to understand and appreciate that. Could you write everything down in a letter for her? She might read it and some of it might sink in over time, you never know. The written word always seems to have more impact in these situations.

I really do feel for you.

you must be worrying about your other children though anorak. They're getting hurt in all of this too

oh anorak . Feel so sad for you and your lovely dh that she is still putting you through this when you bend over backwards for her.
no advice - only hugs. xx

anorak, sorry you are having so many problems atm. Have you considered having counselling yourself to help you cope with it, and stop taking it so "personally". From what you have said here and on previous occasions, dd sounds, sadly, like a very troubled young lady, and probably herself doesn't fully know/understand why she is doing what she is doing. It may have been that she would have found adolescence difficult whatever would have happened with your ex. It is impossible to say. Only other thing that occurs to me is whether there may be any hormonal aspect/PMT aspect to her worst aspects that could usefully be treated?

I think her getting a job at Sainsbury's is a very good idea - either she will enjoy the independence, and really gain something from it, or hate it, and realise that being an adult/going to work has responsibilities and can be very very boring.

Anorak - sorry that you're still going through this... I don't have much to add really - my ds is 'coming back' to us now after some bad times, although not as dire as yours sound. We've been there with the stealing too

I can see why you have refused her allowance - but I can also see that she will be telling herself that she has no choice but to steal from you. She has no money to be independent (and I have to say that it's unlikely Sainsbury's will allow her to work until she's 16) - she will be blaming you for having no money and to her it 'justifies' her stealing. When ds was taking money from us I worried that it would escalate into shoplifting or petty theft outside the home. It is just so difficult if she won't talk to you at all. Whatever you do is seen to be wrong but she won't let you know what's right.

Sitting it out is possibly the only option you have - but I understand that you are worried about the impact on your other children. Be there for her, keep trying and showing the love for her you obviously have. Hopefully if she does get some work she will see that RL isn't all fun and games and that maybe you are doing your best for her.

Agree with MTS about a physical problem aggrovating the issue too - hormonal or depression maybe?

Hugs

Anorak, im sorry ur going thru this. i keep typing out a message for you, but i dont think it will be of any help. i do think if your dd1 has more responsibility, it may help her; and if you maybe pay more attention to the rest of your family, she may feel that she needs to change her ways to get attention from you all. not very helpful i know, but just thinking back on personal experiences. counselling for yourself may be an idea. sending you lots of hugs xxx

Hello everyone and thank you for you kind posts. I have been shopping and wandering and thinking about it all.

I realise she is displaying a strange behaviour, one I don't think I've come across before. I talk to her about being part of a family and working for one another, for example I give her lifts, entertain her friends, do her washing, cook her meals, etc, and she babysits and does a chore or two. Her response to this is to stop accepting lifts, stop bringing her friends here, buy her own detergent and do her own washing, and fix herself a huge snack when she gets home from school and not come downstairs when called for dinner. She cuts us out of her life in every way she possibly can and then tells us she should be paid every time she lifts a finger. Of course she can't detach herself totally from our care, since she lives under our roof, eats the food from our kitchen, etc. But if she could, I swear she would.

I can't make her see that life is so much happier when we do things for one another. I am very worried that she is going to run away.

oh anorak I wish I could help. I was very similar as a teenager, although probably not as bad but I was definitely very very angry (to do with breakup of parents relationship and other stuff). I used to be a total nightmare to live with and i used to self harm. I don't think it would matter what anyone said to me it just didn't go in, I would describe it as wearing a very hard coat of armour, nothing penetrated it IFYKWIM. She WILL come through this but realise that is no consolation now. Was the counselling cognitive behavioural therapy? If not you might want to think about that as it's much more postive and about taking action rather than contemplating your navel IFYKWIM.
it does break my heart to read your post because I can't imagine how awful it is to live with this situation and how devastating not to be able to 'get through' to the child you clearly love and who is obviously angry and hurt.
Can you bargain with her? Try counselling again in return for XYZ?

gosh anorak, she sounds very hurt and bewildered, lashing out at those who love her. i think my own teens were just a bit miserable, usual kind of stuff, but i remember hating my parents interfering and had one HUGE row with my dad over how he treated my mum (not that bad, but just a bit old fashioned, iirc). the practical stuff - washing her own things, etc - feels like an attempt by her to be independent of you, stamp her own identity on things and rub your nose in it simultaneously and any intervention will provoke an even harsher response. imo professional help is definitely needed, but realise this may prove hard/impossible to get her to cooperate. sorry for the psychobabble, much sympathy, x

when i was about her age, i use to lock myself away into my room, and do things on my own and my way. i did contenplate running away at times, but would never do it. and i chose not to tell my mum what was bothering me. i know its not much help, but i think most teenagers do the same. my sister is doing the same, and it looks like my brothers are starting to go through it too.

Is she depressed, anorak? I don't know the full story of what happened with her father but it seems she is in denial about having problems - which I am sure you agree with.

I remember when my sister was a teenager and I was at uni so kind of detached from the situation. She was quite rebellious and did nothing round the house at all. She wanted to be paid to lift a finger to help even though there was no money to give her. She did a lot of things that you mention your dd doing in your post. She is now the most wonderfully caring grown up and I chatted to her about this a while ago. She had major issues about something that was going on with another family member and couldn't discuss it. She felt that her parents should have instintively 'known' at the time that there was something up and realises now that they are not telepathic!

I am sure that you are there for your daughter but you can't do much else until she admits she has a problem. Another thing my sis mentioned is that she felt why should she have to earn money when it was her parents responsibilty to care for her etc and not 'use' her as a cleaner etc. Not saying I agree with that vein of thought at all, and neither does my sis now she is an adult. Just thought it may be helpful to have a teenager's perspective
HTH

Ah Anorak - I feel for you I really do. I often look at my 2 year old dd and wonder what her teenage years will be like and absolutely dread the prospect of having to go through what you're going through.

I just wanted to say that my parents divorced when I was 13 and my mum quickly remarried to a man who was very different to what I was used to ... v.strict etc. My dad also met someone else and she had 2 children who we suddenly had to treat like real siblings. I found this very hard and went through a pretty hideous phase at 15 myself.

I would find I couldn't stop myself say things that I knew would hurt my mum. I would regret saying it almost immediately but would then try to justify it to myself rather than ever apologise. I think in retrospect I was going through hormonal stuff, conflicts about wanting to be independent and treated as an adult but still wanting/being dependent on my mum. I also resented having to share her with her new husband and didn't like having to do the lion's share of the chores because my real/step siblings were younger.

I know this is a different situation to yours but I do want to say that by the time I hit around 17/18, I was completely different. I guess the worry is if in the mean time she falls in with the wrong crowd ...

I'm not sure how I would have felt being told I could move out at 16, even if I'd said I'd wanted it - I might have felt more rejected. Is there anyway you can give her a total new "package" ... this is just off the top of my head but maybe chores for allowance feels too childish now. Maybe you could give her more independence by giving her like a weekly pay packet and in return she is allowed 1 big night out, 2 small nights out, 1 night babysitting, cook one meal, etc and how she plans that in is up to her to agree with you. So for example she can say to you there's a party she wants to go to on friday so can you have sat night out instead.

I don't know, just a thought on how to make her more responsible and be able to make decisions for herself in a mature way, still participate in the family and also means she's still getting some money so isn't going to have to resort to other means to get it.

Not sure if that's helped but I really hope life gets better for you soon. Big hugs ...

I too couldn't ignore your post and can't imagine how devastated and helpless you must feel.

Just wondered if you had spoken to her teachers or maybe some of her friends' parents - see if they have any better clues as to how she is really feeling. Does she have a good support network of friends? Is there a school nurse that could maybe schedule a "routine" sort of appointment to chat over her concerns?

Also wondering if maybe you could give her some of her allowance back, even if she does nothing at all to help. (May have some explaining to do to other dd). My thinking on this is it is your way of showing that you love her. It is very clear to us that you love her but perhaps for some reason she still feels this anger and resentment to you - the anger and resentment will only increase if you withhold her money. You give her part of the allowance because you love her and for no other reason. And maybe give her the rest of the allowance if she eats dinner with you 5 nights a week or whatver - ie for something quite small but which involves her with the family again.

Sorry if you've already done all this. Hope you get some good help somewhere.

Anorak - I'm so sorry - this sounds terrible to have to deal with for you and your family. I would reiterate all that people say here about having to ride it out with her. She sounds in a real pickle - in some ways trying to be as independent as possible and maybe resents her dependence on you. Could that be because she has had problems in the past and perceives you as over protective/ seeing her as someone with problems? I'm specifically referring to 'she says she is fine it's just the rest of us' in your first post.

I do think it's very very common to reject your family at this age - I know I certainly didn't want to be involved with any family stuff and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the dinner table for family meals. I don't know the history of this but I think she's kicking out trying to force you to reject her - indeed in the way you have threatened by suggesting she leaves home at 16. Two of my friends were asked to leave home by their parents and I think this just reinforced their own feelings of worthlessness - it was extremely damaging to both - at 35 their lives are back on track but only just.

I think if I were you I'd try and tone all the family involvement stuff down, and try and let her live her life as much as possible without your involvement - just give her lots and lots of space but let her know you are there when she needs you. I would give her an allowance linked to chores/ babysitting - if she prefers to get a job that's even better.

You sound like a fantastic mum anorak.

Thank you all. I am reading your posts very carefully to see if I can see a new idea that might work. Unfortunately I can't see her responding to any kind of deal. It's as if I have to get down on my knees and beg for the privilege of being allowed to do anything for her. If her problem is hormonal then she is hormonal all the time.

I'd love her to go to a counsellor of any kind, anything just to get her to open up. But since I am a firm believer in counselling and talking things through, she naturally takes the opposite view and refuses all attempts I make. I often try to have a really good talk with her, but I get nowhere.

I feel as if I would do most anything in exchange for her stopping the swearing and verbal abuse. I have tried to calmly ask her to modify her language etc, so many times, and I have reached the point where the amount of abuse I am receiving is crushing me now. If she were a lover I would leave her but how can you separate from a child? I fear that she is now hurting me so much every day that I am reaching the point where I won't be able to forgive her.

Anorak, really sorry to hear of your troubles with ds. No wise words of wisdom TBH. Had a similar problem with my dss but he in the end went for therapy and has been generally better since, although not perfect. BTW, he was not given any choice about the therapy, we just took him, told him that we would not take no for an answer and that if he wanted to continue to be part of our family, he was going.
What does your dh make of all of this? how is she with him?

oh anorak, poor poor you.
have you read any books that might offer advice?

here

and here

they seem to get positive reviews. I think the second one is a bit american but maybe something like this would help you to at least realise that it's not you and it will change.