Total breakdown of relationship - how can I fix this?

[anorak]

As I'm sure you guessed, useless anorak and her 15 year old daughter again.

My daughter, my beautiful first child, seems to hate myself, dh, dd2 and at times even 4 year old ds. She is manipulative, abusive, foul-mouthed and bullying. I have tried to ignore her behaviour and try to ride the storm but if I do she kind of makes sure she pushes things until I have to do something.

I see a girl who is deeply damaged by some things her father did to her years ago. Things dh and I went to a lot of trouble to ensure could never happen again. I have been there for her throughout trying to help her get over the damage but she says she is fine it is just the rest of us. Her constant refrain is 'I don't f*ing care'.

She has been saying for a long time that she no longer wants to babysit or help around the house for her allowance and recently I complied with her requests for Saturday nights out with her friends. Now she says no more babysitting unless she is paid by the hour. I refused to do this since it disconnects her from being part of the family and she doesn't see the way we do things for one another. So we have decided no more chores or babysitting and no more allowance.

I can do the chores myself and hire a babysitter, but I am so sad that she is totally rejecting us as a family. She is trying to get a job at Sainsbury's and while I know this may be a good thing for her I long for her to do it WITH our support. But she is doing it to gather money to free herself from us.

Last night DD2 caught her stealing money from a purse of mine. When I confronted her she talked to me as if I were an evil sadist to be accusing her. But money was missing so I know she took it. DD2 was called a 'lying fing bh'.

I am at the end of my tether. She is breaking my heart. She is using every chance to hurt me in any way she can and I am not sure how much more I can take. I can't stop crying and feel I am greiving for something I have lost. Even if she ever stops being like this I am reaching the point when I won't be able to forgive.

I have told her I want her either to start treating the rest of us like human beings or move out when she reaches 16. She seems keen for the latter and sounds totally determined to live in squalour and loneliness rather than accept the support and help we long to offer.

I know she is punishing me for what her father did to her but for how much longer? She will kill me before she forgives me.

Hello all. I have only just seen this. Sarah was on the computer for hours yesterday reading our posts. I had a feeling she might post. I was out last night and when I got back the babysitter told us she had gone out, so I called her at midnight to find her at our friend's house, safe and sound.

Thank you all for talking to her, I think she is a bit cross with me for posting so much about her but I hope she will come to understand how your support helps me.

Sorry Spook, it was a lovely idea, I'd love to come and visit sometime anyway

Crossed posts! - Glad you're both OK

I have to go out now - IKEA actually so look for me if you are there at Brent Park!

Talk later...

I wish I could have met you at Brent Park Anorak! I have been thinking of you so much. I have had similar experiences that I have not shared about on Mumsnet. I have a stepdaughter that is now 21, a stepson that is 19, another stepson that is now 14 and my Rachel who is now 10. It is so difficult to know what to say that might help both of you. For one, the therapist has to be the right one for Sara and at the same time in a way YOUR advocate so that the sessions are productive. If Sara doesn't click with the therapist, she will never want to go. She needs some time alone with the therapist for sure just to unload. I think it is important that you also speak with the therapist one-on-one to see how you can change your responses and to somehow get a cushion from the raw feelings, do you know what I mean? When the hurt comes on over and over, you just get beaten down and so drained. You mentioned Sara vomiting (not that that is so great on your body) but that in itself will clear stress and throw her into a deeper sleep. You might go through 10 therapists, but I believe it will be worth it and you can always go back to this person for many different issues and for professional advice in the future.

I know that this might sound strange, for what it is worth. If you can afford it, both of you would benefit so from a weekly deep tissue massage. The second thing I would highly recommend is Osteo Cranial Therapy. This can help tremendously with hormonal changes and even depression. How well are you eating and digesting at this point? It is almost like starting from the physical will help to heal the emotional. The treatments are nurturing which you both need at this time, but they are so different than our physical relationships in that nothing is expected back.

It is all well and great to say that exercize would be great, but when you are down like this nurturing is the best (without draining your family).

You are so creative and alive and brilliant Anorak, you are a wonderful Mom. It is so clear from your posts how much you care. As for Sara, her posts were bright, clear and from the heart--your positions are miles apart right now. It would seem that she really wants alot more control (don't we all?) and it is so horrible and ackward to figure out how to get that control without stomping all over everyone.

I hope I have not offended you or Sara in any way. My thoughts are with both of you. I have been in a similar place and I wish I had Mumsnet at that time. Please feel free to contact me and my house is always open (even though I am so far away). Laughter is very healing and I try to do that ALL THE TIME~~

Oh dear, I've read this whole thread and I'm feeling so bad. This relationship you describe with your daughter is me and my mum 10 years ago. It makes me feel worse because i never had anything bad happen to me in my childhood (I don't know what happened between Sarah and her bio father) and my parents aren't separated, so I had none of the 'normal' experiences that teenagers sometimes have as their reason to become difficult or whatever etc. I had no reason to be such an awful teenager. However I am ashamed to say I stole money from my parents, I went out at night and didn't come home, I would go clubbing at 15 and get so drunk I didn't know what I was doing, I went out with unsuitable boyfriends whom I knew my parents would HATE, I called my mum terrible names when she confronted me about the various goings on that i was up to.... I remember my mum crying and saying she didn't trust me or any of my friends and that she would never forgive me for the things I had done to her and my dad. I remember her saying one day that she was going to wash my hands of me. AT 17 I decided I was going to move out. My mum and dad refused to play any part in this and refused to give me money and said they wouldn't give me hand-outs if I fell on hard times. They also refused to sign the bit of paper that says they kicked me out so i could get benefits. So I got a job, ironically at Sainsburys (!) Although I only worked 16 hours per week (as well as going to college - luckily I was sensible enough to stick at that) it paid enough for me to rent a flat with a friend.

As soon as I moved out, things changed. I don't know why. I don't know if it was because I had to be responsible to pay the rent and bills, or whatever, or whether living alone made me just grow up. I started having sunday lunch with my parents and I'd often go home to them just to say 'hi' if I had a half day at college. I think my parents saw me supporting myself and putting my stubborn streak to good use by sticking at work and college and they started to respect me again. Gradually our relationship improved.

I never moved back home, but I would say that I am now so close and best friends with my parents. On my wedding day and the day I graduated from uni, my mum told me how proud she was of me and how much I had achieved for myself. This meant so much as I know how much I had hurt her in the past. Even now I can't explain why I did what i did and why i was so angry with them. And I was SO angry with my parents. I have to admit that I always take the hard route in life and give myself challenges that others probably wouldn't, and its a cliche, but I do feel its made me a better person. Not the being horrible to my parents part, but moving out so young and putting myself through university, etc.

At the moment I expect this isn't helpful to your situation, but I posted it to kind of say that sometimes 'tough love' that people describe in their posts isn't always a bad thing and can sometimes turn things around. Things got so bad with my parents that I felt I had to leave, but it was my turning point. They didn't kick me out, but i think it was heading that way. I also wanted to say that although I was a nightmare, I was sensible enough to know my own limits. Like Sarah says in her post, I wasn't going out on the 'streets', I was often just staying round at friends houses. Its just that because my parents didn't know / like the friends, it was easier just to not tell them where I was going to avoid another argument. I was always safe and didn't ever really put myself in danger.

My mum has told me that she didn't ever think we would get through those years, but we did, and you will too. There will be an end to this tunnel and you may just be better people for it. I really hope so and I wish you both the best of luck.

Therapists are like trying on shoes; you need to find one that fits.

I see one hell of a defensive and angry young woman in Sarah. This anger is a direct result of the damaging legacy inflicted on her as a child by a man.

Abuse and control go hand in hand.

Answer me this Sarah - do you really want the damage done on you in your past to affect your future life?. Deny it all you want but this abusive power still has a hold over you even though this man is no longer around so therefore this person has won. This anger is having a strong hold over all aspects of your life. You are only 16; what's life going to be like for you in ten years time if you keep being angry all the time?. No-one can save you from yourself except you as you are now your own worst enemy.

Believe it or not you have the power within you to change things for the better. Therapy is not "magic" - it is hard work and it will be bloody difficult for you. What are you so afraid of that you refuse to try?.

Thank you for those posts, and of course I am not offended sunchowder. HelloMama I thought your story was lovely and really gave me heart.

I'm beginning to see just how grown-up my daughter is for a 15 year old. She has demanded her freedom so I will comply as cheerfully I am and admire her determination to do things for herself. She is now at work where her boss thinks the world of her. I know she will be successful at whatever she wants to do, she is creative and bright. I hope she will find soon that my help and support no longer constitute a threat to her and will accept them again.

In the meantime I want to thank each and every one of you for your suggestions and promise that they have all been most carefully read and considered. I have been overwhelmed by how many mners wanted to support me when I was feeling terrible. Now DD and I have a new set-up and we must learn to make it work.

'as cheerfully as I can' is of course what I meant to say!

Fab post, HelloMama - you brought tears to my eyes.

Anorak, I hope reading all this has somehow helped dd see just how much she is loved and how distressed you are. I think it's a bit (warning: bad analogy coming up) like the sea washing away at cliffs. You can't see the cliffs eroding - but it is, ever so slowly, making a difference. You keep loving her, and gradually, you will break through that defensive shell - your love is making a difference to her, even if she can't see/admit it yet. Good luck.

god anorak, i hardly dare post, but i've been reading this thread and i really think that the basics are all ok. you love her and she (despite appearances maybe) loves you too.

separation is hard and ugly at times. teenagers that don't get through it end up more troubled as adults (i should know about this). a very very good tutor on my psychotherapy course once said something that has kept coming back to me reading this thread: if children don't eventually go through a phase of hating their parents...they never leave home.

it's a process. it's really painful...like giving birth is...

i think that at the end of it, you'll be able to meet sarah as an adult and maybe even be friends...

hth, and hope very much that it doesn't not help iyswim.

Hi anorak. Just wondering how things are going for you both. x

hi anorak, just wondering how things are? The woman's hour discussion made me think of you and DD

Thanks nasa, good of you to remember.

Things are fairly settled at the moment, DD is very busy with her school work. I don't tend to post about her much any more, since she is probably reading it! So I don't go into detail about her on mn any more as I don't want to make things worse. If I feel really down I have several very kind people I can talk to. I am sure that by the time she is 25 she will like me again, fingers crossed

ah, sorry to bring it up if you're trying to let it lie low. Glad to hear things are more settled though.

No don't be sorry nasa, it's not a problem. She will probably check this at some time or another but that's okay. No one has said anything I can think would offend her!