Total breakdown of relationship - how can I fix this?

[anorak]

As I'm sure you guessed, useless anorak and her 15 year old daughter again.

My daughter, my beautiful first child, seems to hate myself, dh, dd2 and at times even 4 year old ds. She is manipulative, abusive, foul-mouthed and bullying. I have tried to ignore her behaviour and try to ride the storm but if I do she kind of makes sure she pushes things until I have to do something.

I see a girl who is deeply damaged by some things her father did to her years ago. Things dh and I went to a lot of trouble to ensure could never happen again. I have been there for her throughout trying to help her get over the damage but she says she is fine it is just the rest of us. Her constant refrain is 'I don't f*ing care'.

She has been saying for a long time that she no longer wants to babysit or help around the house for her allowance and recently I complied with her requests for Saturday nights out with her friends. Now she says no more babysitting unless she is paid by the hour. I refused to do this since it disconnects her from being part of the family and she doesn't see the way we do things for one another. So we have decided no more chores or babysitting and no more allowance.

I can do the chores myself and hire a babysitter, but I am so sad that she is totally rejecting us as a family. She is trying to get a job at Sainsbury's and while I know this may be a good thing for her I long for her to do it WITH our support. But she is doing it to gather money to free herself from us.

Last night DD2 caught her stealing money from a purse of mine. When I confronted her she talked to me as if I were an evil sadist to be accusing her. But money was missing so I know she took it. DD2 was called a 'lying fing bh'.

I am at the end of my tether. She is breaking my heart. She is using every chance to hurt me in any way she can and I am not sure how much more I can take. I can't stop crying and feel I am greiving for something I have lost. Even if she ever stops being like this I am reaching the point when I won't be able to forgive.

I have told her I want her either to start treating the rest of us like human beings or move out when she reaches 16. She seems keen for the latter and sounds totally determined to live in squalour and loneliness rather than accept the support and help we long to offer.

I know she is punishing me for what her father did to her but for how much longer? She will kill me before she forgives me.

No unicorn though I agree it's a question worth asking. She is not showing any sign whatsoever of drugs.

I don't think it is much to do with who she is mixing with, I think it definitely comes down to her past and the issues with her father. I feel so frustrated and sad and useless anorak, wish there was something I could do. Like I say, I remember being utterly vile and angry as a teenager and I just didn't have the ability to step back from it.

oops sorry anorak, posts crossed.
But surely it was as a result of attending the therapy sessions that made her deal with her problems IYSWIM

How old is your ds littlemissbossy?

have you approached the school (you probably have.....)

Is there another adult who she looks up to/respects?

14

going on 44

You may be right about the therapy helping her get over depression. I think it helped her more than she realises. But she feels she did it all alone and that talking doesn't change anything. I've tried very hard to explain the value of talking to her but she won't have a bar of it.

Can you tell me more about your ds lmb? Only if you want to.

Popsy I haven't approached the school but I keep wondering if I should. The trouble is I think it's a place where she can really be herself and I don't want to upset her in that safe place. It's hard to know what to do for the best.

Anorak - teachers can be really good at dealing with something without letting on

Is there a teacher who she gets on well with? What is her head of year.form tutor like?

It me be valuable even to just chat with them to get a picture of what she is like at school..there may be minor issues of which you are not aware!

We have a learning mentor at school who is not a teacher or trained counsellor but is skilled in helping kids to help themselves in a non-threatening way. We have set up group sessions before - sometimes focused on only one person in the group with other non-involved children taking part too. Things like self-esteem, dealing with parents, etc - all sorts of things. What I am saying is, if this exists in her school, it could be put to her that others in the group need support and she (and others) are there to help and provide a 'good influence'. May get her talking.....
Just a thought

Anorak - maybe approach the school - without her knowledge - they may have some ideas, or access to a school councillor/welfare officer that they could guide her towards. I know its hard if she won't talk, or feels that the problem is with you and not her.

What about putting it all in a letter to her?......I know its mad as she's basically in the next room, but if she won't 'talk' as such, you could write it down, ask her what she wants from you, what would make things better between you. Sorry, clutching at straws here but just want you to know that I'm thinking of you.

luckymum, someone else suggested the letter idea too. I was thinking about that, I don't know. She would probably think it silly. I have said most of the things I would want to. I guess the problem is she selects bits to remember and bits to forget whereas in a letter it's all there in black and white.

My ds is my step-son who I have brought up as my own together with his brother who is angelic in comparison. Dss has always been a challenge, shall we say. His behaviour however gradually became more extreme, violent outburts, severe temper tantrums, "I'm gonna kill myself" - you get the picture. I went to our GP - without him -and begged for help. His behaviour was effecting all of our family, because if one person igored him, he'd quickly move on to the next. He was MADE to go to therapy, simple as that. DH told him, sounds cruel sorry, but if he didn't, he'd be going to a secure unit for kids with behavioural problems... he'd have ended up in the secure unit sooner or later if we didn't take control of the situation.
His behaviour is a 1000x better than it was, but it isn't perfect and we've had to change our approach to help change him and have had some family therapy sessions ourselves to achieve this.
The most important thing is that he knows that we made him go to the therapy because we care about him and were worried that he might do something to hurt himself - we too also worried that he might run away, for some stupid reason, for example, there weren't any cheerios left - this was all that was needed to make him flip. He also understands that he can not go back to how he was and that as a united family (singing from the same song sheet) we will not tolerate it. That might sound harsh but extreme behavioural problems have such a massive impact on a family.

If I were you anorak, I'd go to your GP, as I did, on your own and ask for help. Find out what options you have and make her go. It's not only for her own good but for all the family who will be suffering too.
HTH lmbx

Forgot to mention he's generally very good at school and extremely bright... although a bit of a dreamer in class sometimes

ds (nearly 4) has just come home from school. I told him to take off his shoes and he said, 'f*ing trainers and shoes'. When I asked where he had heard that word he said it was dd1

oh dear

I'm really sorry. It sounds dreadful.

hello anorak, have just read this thread and like many others feel I just have to add some sympathy and support. My children are still young so it is not something I have parenting experience of, I can only recall my own adolescence. I do remember my mum telling me one day (I was about 15) that she did love me but sometimes she didn't like me. Although I probably didn't show it at the time it really struck me. I think that sometimes I wanted to push my parents to see if they genuinely did love me but once in the pattern of snarling and rejecting everything from them it gets hard to break out of it.
My sil was a REAL handful for her parents - she developed mental problems in her late teens and they eventually decided to allow the authorities to admit her to a hospital, something she has never forgiven them for. At the time they were trying to do the right thing for her (and health wise it probably was) but it has repercussions on their relationship now, 10 years on.
All I can recommend is to continue to demonstrate that you love her - maybe this will eventually give her the confidence to let down her guard with you. Maybe give her an allowance again with no strings attached. Maybe wait till she is ready to come back to you without you forcing this issue.
It's difficult with the language and verbal abuse - I would suggest, like unicorn, that you treat her like a toddler and ignore it; don't give her any reaction. When she displays behaviour like that in front of the other children maybe just say it is unacceptable and you don't wish to hear it but then continue to ignore her.
If that isn't a route you feel would work I think you should definitely see your gp, for your sake as much as hers.

Oh dear.

Just a thought - did she go to therapy with you last time? Maybe - IF you could get her to go - she'd respond better if she sees them on their own and able to talk freely?

Not sure about what your family circumstances are but if she doesn't get on with your dh and dd2 and ds are your children with him, then maybe she feels like she's not actually a part of the family. Don't mean that any of you are doing ANYTHING to give her reason to think this but IMO teenagers spend a lot of time obsessing about stuff like this. I still remember how devastated I was when my step brother told me and by brother they see more of our dad than we did. It was true of course but it was said ever so slightly maliciously and it was so hurtful.

It seems like you've tried talking and reasoning with her. Talking to the school sounds a good idea - they may have noticed a change in her which could highlight a general problem - depression, etc (drugs?). She doesn't need to know you've talked to them. And also agree with people who suggested talking to your gp. I think the more info you have and the rounded picture you have of her the better.

Am thinking about you ...

Hi Anorak, I have a 15 yr old dd too and although she can be a right stroppy little sod at times, I don't have the problems that you have.

Where does your dd get money from? I think the idea of money for chores/babysitting is a good one and can see why you have stopped it, but now where does she get money from to buy her own washing powder and the bits of stuff that teenage girls need?

With teenage girls, the offer of or threat of withdrawing money can be a very powerful one, it's amazing what mine can do to help around the house when her monthly allowance has run out? I was just thinking although it may be a feeble suggestion of a swear box in reverse, a pound or so for every day she doesn't swear at you, save it up till she gets a tenner? Or woudl she regard that sort of thing as beign beneath her?

Hugs to you all anyway XX

You could always print off this thread for her to read. You've been very open and the feedback has been supportive and constructive, not judgmental ... she might just realise how desperate she is making you. Course she might think it's a bit sad but you never know!

Hi everyone again and thanks so much for the many suggestions here. To answer one or two questions: DD2 has the same father as DD1 but ds is dh's. Yes she is jealous of the others, she reckons they get more attention and better presents on their birthdays than when she was their age. Wrong. She had the same if not more, when I could afford it less. She has forgotten. She still has money because her decision to boycott babysitting and chores and forego the allowance was only taken yesterday. She also has an occasional job locally where she earns a few quid here and there.

I accompanied her to counselling because she wanted it that way. I frequently asked if she would like to go in alone and she always declined. Now she would totally refuse any counselling.

I just spend 1 hour in her room. I told her that I love her dearly and that I want her in my life. I said I was sorry for anything I had said that had hurt her and that I admired her ability to stand on her own two feet. I said that if she really wanted to be independent I would like to help her make that happen and that it would be so much more pleasant and easy to plan for the future with our help and support.

She was very upset that she had been accused of stealing and so I decided to give her the benefit of the doubt. Even though she was caught with the purse in one hand and money in the other, and money was missing from the purse I apologised and told her I would believe her since she was upset but still she couldn't even agree that anyone in that situation would think the person was stealing.

She informed me that she has eliminated all help from me from her life so that she can do whatever she wants, whenever she wants. For example, I have told her I do not want her to travel to London at night and stay over there, but she says she will now do as she pleases since I have nothing I can withold from her to prevent her.

I asked her whether it mattered to her that she was making life a living hell for the rest of us and she said it didn't matter as long as she could get her own way about anything and everything.

There is nothing more I can do or say. I have explained to her that organising things so that I cannot withdraw anything from her means that she has removed all her luxuries herself, like cutting off her nose to spite her face. I asked repeatedly what she was getting out of bullying and abusing us all. She said she only replies in that way when there is an argument, whereas I say the arguments are caused by the malicious behaviour.

We are going to avoid speaking to her as much as possible from now on. Though I will be having kittens on a Saturday night when my 15 year old has dissapeared somewhere and I don't know where she is. It feels like negligence but short of brute force I don't think there is a way of stopping her.

Oh Anorak,

I having nothing of value to add to this. My kids are still little, but I think that you are a fantastic person, and I am thinking about you.

HUGS

Hi anorak, thanks for the update, although not great news is it? so you say she's going to London and you have absolutely no idea where she's staying?

One further question, if I may - in your first post you said you knew she was punishing you for what her father did to her ... have you tried to discuss this with her directly??

I've tried to discuss it many times, lmb. She says it's in the past and she never thinks about it any more. I said to her tonight, all that anger in you is coming from somewhere. She doesn't understand how these things, so deeply buried, simmer and steam through the seams. She can't identify it, can't deal with it and has buried the hurt so deep she can't feel it any more.

Thank you for your kind words, kalex, and everyone else who have expressed their support. It does make a difference, you know.