Total breakdown of relationship - how can I fix this?

[anorak]

As I'm sure you guessed, useless anorak and her 15 year old daughter again.

My daughter, my beautiful first child, seems to hate myself, dh, dd2 and at times even 4 year old ds. She is manipulative, abusive, foul-mouthed and bullying. I have tried to ignore her behaviour and try to ride the storm but if I do she kind of makes sure she pushes things until I have to do something.

I see a girl who is deeply damaged by some things her father did to her years ago. Things dh and I went to a lot of trouble to ensure could never happen again. I have been there for her throughout trying to help her get over the damage but she says she is fine it is just the rest of us. Her constant refrain is 'I don't f*ing care'.

She has been saying for a long time that she no longer wants to babysit or help around the house for her allowance and recently I complied with her requests for Saturday nights out with her friends. Now she says no more babysitting unless she is paid by the hour. I refused to do this since it disconnects her from being part of the family and she doesn't see the way we do things for one another. So we have decided no more chores or babysitting and no more allowance.

I can do the chores myself and hire a babysitter, but I am so sad that she is totally rejecting us as a family. She is trying to get a job at Sainsbury's and while I know this may be a good thing for her I long for her to do it WITH our support. But she is doing it to gather money to free herself from us.

Last night DD2 caught her stealing money from a purse of mine. When I confronted her she talked to me as if I were an evil sadist to be accusing her. But money was missing so I know she took it. DD2 was called a 'lying fing bh'.

I am at the end of my tether. She is breaking my heart. She is using every chance to hurt me in any way she can and I am not sure how much more I can take. I can't stop crying and feel I am greiving for something I have lost. Even if she ever stops being like this I am reaching the point when I won't be able to forgive.

I have told her I want her either to start treating the rest of us like human beings or move out when she reaches 16. She seems keen for the latter and sounds totally determined to live in squalour and loneliness rather than accept the support and help we long to offer.

I know she is punishing me for what her father did to her but for how much longer? She will kill me before she forgives me.

Is she going to London with friends - if so are they the nice friends whose parents you know? Maybe see what they think about their daughter staying away overnight.
Is she able to tell you what she thinks it is that you've done so wrong? Do all her friends have similar relationships with their parents? If not maybe you could ask what their parents do which is so much better (in her opinion) than you?

Oh Boomama I have asked her all these questions so many times. She is very good at skirting the real issues and arguing about little technicalities. If pressed she simply repeats her mantra 'I don't f*ing care'.

If she were going to London with Christie's family I would let her go in a heartbeat and not worry for a second. But they don't want their daughter going there either. The girls made some friends over there who we are not sure about but the main thing is that it appears they are allowed out till all hours doing God knows what in a not very safe area...I am sure you get the picture. Friends do not allow their daughter there and nor did we up till now.

She seems so angry. Does she have unresolved 'issues'? (sorry, I am new so don't know your history)
I could suggest alternative therapy if I knew anything about that but I suppose the difficult part is getting her to cooperate with anything.
I really recommend that you contact your gp or health visitor tomorrow and see who they could refer you to.
Does she have a boyfriend? If not is she depressed because she doesn't? Sorry to bring up such trivialities but things like that always depressed me when I was 15.
I can't really think of anything you could say to her to break down the barriers.
Maybe you could arrange something really special for her - maybe take her away (she could bring along a nice friend) for the weekend or take her clothes shopping. I am just thinking of something along the lines of you spending time together doing something other than normal stuff or trying to talk. And if there's something in it for her she may be less likely to refuse it. Unfortunately I can only think of things which cost money.

Oh Anorak. You must be under terrible pressure. I wish there was a magic 'key' to all of this, but if someone had invented one they'd be the richest person on the planet!

I feel that your daughter is very aggressive and angry without really knowing why. She is deliberately trying to alienate you and force your rejection of her to give her a reason for feeling the way she does. Does that make sense? I think all you can do is try to live through it, whilst trying to be as calm as you can and keeping the lines of communication open. She will talk when she wants to, but probably not before. The important thing is to concentrate on the rest of your family - dont let this destroy you all. If you can try to carry on with the others as normally as possible, there is the hope that she will see what she is missing out on, and make moves towards you again. This sounds fine in theory - but practice is another thing! You are doing all you can do, and it is obvious you love her very, very much. Whatever happens, she will look back one day and see that - it may even take having her own children to see it, but it will happen.

I also thought that putting your thoughts down in a letter, telling her how much you love her again, may help. Lots of love and hugs for you.

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Hello, anorak, love. I have been looking at this thread on and off and still have nothing to offer - except that DD1 (22) also read it today and she thinks that your DD is really within the range of normal teenager behaviour, only at the extreme end of horridness of course.

I think luckymum is right that she won't get a job at Sainsburys - I don't think any big company will employ a child before their GCSEs are finished. She might get milk round/paper round but I'm not sure she'd be too impressed with that.

I wish I had something helpful to say. I agree that she is hurting you because she can. I wish she would break down and talk to you. I understand your fears for her and reluctance to let her go but maybe in the short term it would be best for all of you to get a break from each other. Is there somewhere she could go temporarily that you wouldn't be unhappy about? A friend, a relative?

Anorak, feel really bad for you . Is there any chance she might attend family therapy with you, rather than therapy on her own? Just thinking maybe she sees offer of therapy for her as being told she's the one with the problem, and in typical teenage style, responds negatively because, in her eyes, you are the ones with the problem.

My sister was a nightmare teenager, your post rang lots of bells for me. Mother just had to be there for her (I escaped to uni ? it really was an escape at the time). As others have posted, nightmare teenagers do grow up eventually. My sister's fab now and really, really close to my mum. Not a huge amount of help when you are going through it, I know, but she probably will turn out OK in the end.

This is a difficuilt situation and I don't know the history, however I get the impression that she is feeling left out, perhaps jealous of her siblings and is holding you responsible for all everything that is not going right in her life. I think by telling her she can move out when she is 16 is probably leading her to belive that you are washing your hands of her - not something she will ever forgive you for. Have you done things in alone with her in the past? Shopping, girly things to make her feel special? Of course you don't want to spoil her either especially if she is being a S..T! Hang in there and try to work through this, some of the worst teenagers can turn into Angels!

You're really going through the mill here, Anorak, both of you, which I'm so sorry about. I can hardly think of anything to offer you, you seem to have done so much already. One idea, which I don't even know is possible, is to call Childline. As I'm sure you know, they try to help children with problems and perhaps they can also offer advice to hard-pressed parents. Thinking of you.

Anorak-Get tough. Tough love is the hardest love, my Ds is nearly 15 and he hates me sometimes. She is talking about going to London. Is thatserious, do you really allow her just to wak out and GO?!! My Ds has walked out often, shouting at me and hung round a dodgy place about 15 minutes away behind the local supermarkert, where all the tough kids hang out. No way would he be out longer than an hour-last time he disappeared for about 1 and half hours, I called the police. Shit mum I know, but my theory was, what if I'd left it for a couple more hours and then ot a phone call asking me to ID him down the station? I feel like the shittiest parent in life sometimes but every time I ground him, for homework or whatever I tell him I love him but he's being a complete shit and he needs to sort himself out.
Your DD sounds like she has so many problems other than just discipline but she will break the whole family up and that helps no-one. My DS 1 and2 swear in front of the others major physical fights, and I cringe if the littlest one, aged 6 has friends round to play, in case a swearing match breaks out and I'm branded the mum with no authority and swearing kids. The fact that your dd is ok at school speaks volumes-she can control herself in a social situation but holds on until she gets home and the family gets all the abuse. Kids always belive that whatever they do, parents love them and they push, OMG do they push. But we wouldn't have kids unless we loved them and I look at the way mine wind me up sometimes and then equate it with a boss in the office. If your boss shouted at you and told you to ...., what would you do? Probably take it, smile and simmer underneath. It's the same with teenagers, you probably don't even breathe right for her and yet underneath is that little girl that dressed up in your clothes and still loves you, probably blames you for everything that;'s gone wrong and couldn't/wouldn't say sory if the whole family's life depended on it.

I have cried and cried about my kids, blamed myself, work, elderly dad, etc for the problems and then taken a step back. It isn't our fault they are bolshy, it's theirs and when one day they really need you to be there, you will be. Step back and let her make her mistakes, be ready for a virtual slap one minute and a quick grudging grunt the next. She is lucky to have you, hang in there and if she's bolshy, take the others away from the situation or ask her to swear in her own room. That way she offends no-one else in the family and it loses the effect she's looking for. Give her an outlet for her anger, loud music helps with teenagers and often silly things, like the way the family eats/chews drives them insane. Let her eat upstairs, BUT make sure she brings the plates down. NAG at her, every minute. It works eventually, but you need to keep on, pleasantly nagging, not shouting just reminding. Love and good luck!

Anorak I really feel for you, and her. And me - cos every time I read about your problems I am taken back 15 years. And as I said before - if I'm personalising this too much feel free to ignore it.

I really recognise the bit about not wanting to do chores, even for allowance, and cutting herself off - Part of this I'm sure is that she doesn't feel worthy of being part of the family - but of course she can't admit that (maybe even to herself) so she acts like you aren't worthy of her attention, when in reality she feels she isn't worthy of yours. You worrying so much, and trying to talk to her and put things right, is probably making these feelings worse - she doesn't feel that you should be spending so much time on her - but these feelings are very probably subconcious.
She is just pushing and pushing and pushing until you do kick her out, or tell her that she is a horrible worthless person, because that's what she thinks. She wants you, and expects you, to validate that view. TBH my mother never solved that part of the problem with me - it wasn't until I met dh that I got over the self loathing bit. But it's complicated - whilst she ultimately expects you to validate her crap self-image, she needs to have the arguments, and you then trying to sort the problems out, so that she can hear you telling her how great she is- even though she never really believes it. Dh "fixed" me by not reacting at all (I know that will be nigh on impossible) When I realised he would love me whatever, but also wouldn't profess his love any more even if I engineered an argument I finally, gradually realised there was no point in having more arguments. Unfortunately my mother (who was just as bad as me) hasn't yet realised it, and still engineers the arguments. In fact, maybe you should completely discount all my advice .....

So the only thing I can suggest is that you do cool it. Don't withdraw attention, but just treat her "normally" -if you can remember what normal was. Don't even go overboard on the "rewards" for good behaviour, just let her see that you will not be drawn into the emotional rollercoster that she wants to play on.

Thank you so much everyone for your input. I have read all these posts carefully. I can't seem to explain this properly...there is no question of allowing her this if she does that or agreeing to let her do certain things. She has told me she is going to to exactly as she wants and she doesn't care what the consequences are. The reason she has given for stopping babysitting and chores for allowance is because when she was using foul and abusive language to her sister the other day I told her I was going to dock £5 from her allowance. She has decided that if she doesn't have an allowance I can't control her behaviour by removing part of it.

Thus she has relinquished virtually every bit of support and help I can give, in order to prevent me trying to control her behaviour by threatening to take things away.

So if she wants to go to London the only way I can stop her is to physically stand in front of the door all night long. She will then go to the back door or hit me to get me out of the way. Or she will tell me she is going to the corner shop and just go to London instead. I don't see any way I can stop her really.

Yurtgirl I like your idea very much. But I couldn't write her a letter just now. I have considered it but she twists everything I say. I don't think it would work. However there is nothing to prevent me leaving a small card with a brief unambiguous message or a tiny gift every so often and I think that might be a way to penetrate her defences.

DH is currently in therapy himself and he discussed all this with his therapist last night. Her advice is to avoid conversations with her, since she turns every one into an argument and then says that's the reason she doesn't want to mix with us, because we do nothing but argue.

I wish there were somewhere for her to stay outside the home, since I think it would make her miss us and the lovely bedroom we have provided for her, but unfortunately my family members and very close friends all live too far away from our area and her school.

I do feel a little more positive today since however heartbroken you are you really do have to get on with it and make sure the rest of the family are okay and work gets done. And I know my daughter so much better than she thinks I do. I know she will think about what I've said even though she apparently dismissed it all.

I have to say, DD2 (aged 12) has been fantastically supportive to me and dh, showing a maturity and understanding that I am surprised and very pleased to see. And my dh is a rock too and has never, in the 7 years I have known him, ever complained about being a step-father or treated these girls any differently from if they were his own. He is their father in every way that matter.

What I am dreading is DD1 disappearing on Friday and Saturday nights and my not knowing where she is or when she will be home. I can see a few frantic and sleepless nights ahead . Oh for a tag on her mobile phone!

Morning anorak, glad you're feeling a little more positive today
... really if that's her attitude, then there's not a great deal you can do, except wait for the day when she realises her mistakes and needs you and that day will come probably sooner rather than later... that's the day that I am waiting for with my dss. Wish each other luck eh?

I know it sounds grumpy but I hope it happens before one of us is dead

bl**dy hell - me too!

Anorak - I've been reading your thread and not knowing what I could contribute. It all sounds so awful - like living in the middle of a war zone.
I just wondered whether it was worth you thinking a little bit more about your daughter going away for a while to stay with another part of the family - one that you feel would love and support her but just give her a bit of space away from the home situation and a bit of perspective. I know it's really hard because you wouldn't want to feel like you were pushing her out. Could she go away for a month - with some work from her school?

welshmum, I'd love her to do that but she is in year 11 - GCSE year. She just can't miss a month of school on top of everything else.

anorak i am so sorry you are having such a miserable time and i really hope things improve. i absolutely cannot imagine how hurtful her saying those things about getting her own way sounded to you.

another one with no teenagers, only memories of own behaviour - so ignore. i think it is really positive that she does well at school, gets good reports from the teachers and has at least one good friend that you think is good news. she is loading all the sh*t on you + family. i cringe now at what my mother went through when i was a teenager.

it is not you, it is not the family and it is not her home situation, i really do not believe this. children have to become adults and separate from their parents and some perfectly normal kids seem unable to do this without hacking through their mother's hearts with a machete. without knowing the situation in reality i beg you not to come to the actual point of asking her to move out - however much she seems to want to strain away from you, even if she moves out on her own initiative, please please don't ask her to do so.

i hope to God i could cope with what you are going through but I doubt it.

anorak
does she have any teacher at school who knows her reasonably well - a form tutor? I really think it would be good for you, as you, to talk to someone who knows her in her other life. It would obviously have to be in confidence but it may give you just that bit more resilience in coping with her awful behaviour at home.

So sorry you are going through all this with her, I have been reading all your emails about her for years now, and have always thought you a fantastic and wonderfully caring mum.

Is there any way you can not respond to her? She seems to be forcing you to paint her into a corner, where she has no way of getting out except by being totally unreasonable. It looks as though a good half of the stuff she does is simply to be defiant, and she's making sure she has something to be defiant against.

What is this London weekend? Is it a long way from you? Is there anyway you can provide her with a safety net? DO you know anyone in London who she could contact in case of emergency?

Hello copper! How lovely to see your name on the board.

We live near enough to London for her to travel there in under an hour by public transport. It's just to visit a couple of friends she made when they were in a club locally. They seem like nice girls on the surface, but one of them smokes and that is a worry, besides which I have never met their parents or had any contact with them. They live in a roughish area and seem to be allowed to go out and do much what they like. DD has her birthday at the end of August so is the youngest in her year. All her friends are 16 or soon will be but she is still 15 for nearly a year to come.

There is actually a very good friend of mine who lives a mile or two away. A big rough tough Glaswegian guy who doesn't take any s**t off anyone. I never thought of it before but if I gave her his mobile no. I know he would go straight to her if she was in trouble. Obviously he couldn't be there in a heartbeat but better than nobody supportive for miles. Good idea.

Not responding is the advice dh's therapist has given us, so yes to that.

And thank you acnebride for your kind words.

Thanks anorak - I've been off for a long time (mum died).

I can see that you would worry about her (I know I would about mine) but if she is bound and determined to go and is prepared to push you to the limit to do so, maybe it's best to defuse the situation and just let her go. Maybe some form of communication to say "I don't really want you to go, but if you must then go with my good wishes for a good time. If you run into any problems you feel you can't handle, you could always ring x: I'm sure he wouldn't mind."

Becuase suppose she does, and rings him, and he's not in - if you had parted at least with her knowing that she still had your support, she might feel more able to ring you to ask for help when otherwise she couldn't: too much like I told you so, and she is so determined to prove her total independence.

I have just started to pay my dd her child allowance directly into her building society account. It seems a lot of money to me (£60 a month) but we only get it now because she is staying on at school past 16 - and if we had less income she would be gettng £30 a week to stay on. Lots of her friends get much more. Anyway, it's no longer tied to her doing any particular work; and I no longer feel resentful at her wistful looking at clothes (and getting them when I'm still stuck in my horrid old rags because I can't resist her) because its her money for her to spend on herself. So far she has spent £15 in a month! Mum's money is obviously easier to spend ...

I'm not condoning her bad behaviour but GCSEs do bring huge pressure - we didn;t realise how much until they were over.

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anorak, anorak! This is the worst thing, isn't it - how easy are little kids compared to this? The thing is your dd is doing all this because she knows you will still love her. What's important here is your sanity, she will do what she wants anyway. You must get time out away from this situation so that you can step back from it. Your dd is rejecting you because thats what teenagers do and they sometimes can't do it in a controlled or polite way. She will grow out of it - meanwhile you must not enter into arguments, fights or power trips (cos you can't win). You will have to stand back and let her make all those mistakes until she realises it herself. She will be alright in the long term but she must find her own way of dealing with her issues. It is so hard when they do all the taking and you do all the giving, but it won't last. It is the final demanding, tantrum stage before they become independent. Try to get some emotional distance from this - its not your fault - its easy to say and extremely hard to do. Only time cures this one I'm afraid.

Yurtgirl, I love that verse

Just popping in to say I'm thinking of you anorak x

Thank you all again. I couldn't read your posts earlier. DD turned up early from school, been vomiting all day again, this is something that happens to her when she is stressed out. Silly girl was too proud to phone me to go and collect her, so she walked a mile home in her state!

What can you do? Just about nothing except be here so that's what I'm doing. All your kind messages have really helped me cope these last two days, thank you, thank you all.