My 14 Old Daughter Says She Wants to be a Boy

[Somebiscuits]

I have a dilemma. My daughter has expressed her dissatisfaction with many aspects of femininity before - periods for instance and the fact that women do not have true equality with men- and I have been very sympathetic. She doesn't like having breasts and quickly went from wearing ordinary bras to wearing sports bras. That was okay too.I suppose I was waiting for her to accept that she was growing up and mature a little bit.

However, recently she has announced that she has body dysmorphia and wants to be a male. She has asked to see a counsellor and last night asked me to buy bindings so she can flatten her breasts completely. I refused because I believe this could permanently damage her - she's still growing after all. She flew off the handle and now I don't know what to do.

The thing is I am pretty liberal and accepting and I would accept this more if she had a history of dressing or acting like a boy. She hasn't and has an interest in girls things like make up, hair and clothes. She is not gay. Her dislike of being female seems more to do with the physical and social aspects than a deep feeling that she was born in the wrong gender.

All this has left me very confused. I'm loathe to start her on counselling for fear she'll end up going down a particular path which I am not at all convinced is the right one. On the other hand I want to support her and the best I can for her while she finds out about herself. What should I do?

GreenMouse, welcome. I am sorry you are going through this as well but do feel you will find some comfort and support here as you navigate this difficult time with your daughter.

Mom2A and Alternatereality, finding the right therapist is so hard and, unfortunately, I think trial and error is inevitable. The first psychologist my daughter went to has a good reputation, I just feel that he was a bad fit for her because of his lack of staying current information on both Asperger's and how it presents in girls specifically (I have an above link from many weeks ago where Tony Atwood, an Asperger's expert discusses gender/sexuality dysphoria in adolescent Aspie girls who generally fly under the spectrum radar until puberty) and the explosion of the current gender confusion phenomenon. And to be fair to him, he did seem somewhat open minded until the last few sessions where she started to obsess and dig in on her gender angst. When things really started to go sideways, I pulled her out immediately.

I got lucky in my case because my own therapist recognizes that in the vast majority (but also feels there is a very small minority for whom it is "real") of these cases it is a trend and was able to recommended a like-minded female therapist who believes in helping clients figure things out for themselves, not for them. He explained her as a self-described nerd who was nurturing but also tough and I knew immediately that it sounded like exactly what my kiddo needs.

If you have a psychiatrist that you trust, maybe he/she could give you a good recommendation? I think what we all need are skeptics- doctors and therapists who take the parents background info into consideration, listen to their teen patients and support their feelings but without validating them as being "self actualized". My daughter's psychiatrist is one of those who has a very laid back, "let's wait and see approach" and that is what I was looking for in a therapist for her. I am not a fan of waiting and want this to all just go away but I also know that is not realistic. If my kid was born 10-20 years earlier she'd just have a different sort of identity crisis, I'm sure.

It is so hard to put your child's mental and physical health into someone else's hands on this issue. And it is hard to have a kid who looks, acts and dresses like a girl insist she is a "gender neutral leaning toward male" who wants to be a "they". I just do what I can to try to let that stuff be a small issue so as to not have her dig in out of rebellion.

I wish I had more advice or answers on how to find the perfect match from the start.

mom2A, I wish I lived closer to you so that we could meet, but I actually live in Ohio. There are Children's Hospitals with gender clinics all across the country. It would have been nice to meet you in person, though. I don't know anyone in real life to talk to (besides my husband, who really doesn't like to dwell on this subject). I have felt isolated dealing with this, but thankfully I have found places like this online. It has been such a comfort realizing that there are other parents out there with the same feelings as me.

To all: as parents we seem to be put in a terrible spot. I know I constantly feel like everything I do or say could tip the balance, either pointing my daughter toward accepting her body as it is, or causing her to deny her biological reality. Extremely stressful. Part of me feels like I need to challenge her about the way she feels so that she starts questioning her feelings. And another part of me knows that I need to NOT focus on it so much since it could backfire. She is very oppositional. Sometimes it seems almost instinctual and automatic for her to do the exact opposite of what I want. The last thing I want to do is drive her toward medical intervention just to spite me. Overall, it just seems as mothers that we are in a no-win situation. I love my daughter unconditionally, but it sure is taking a toll on me.

I also have pinned my hopes on what my daughter has chosen to wear. There was a day when she actually wore a headband. I kept telling myself that I shouldn't think it meant her thoughts were changing, but I just couldn't help myself. I guess I just felt the need to latch onto what little thread of hope that this might signify. I intentionally didn't mention that the headband made her look nice. I didn't want to spook her (like some animal I was trying to get to eat out of my hand). Of course, by the next day it was gone and my hopes were dashed.

mom2A, just thought of this. Do you have a pediatrician that could recommend a therapist? Maybe this could help. I really wish I had more advise.

Actual Science Time:
Meta Data Study:
"The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive
research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. "
www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

80% of children treated in gender clinics grow out of it if you let them and decide that being a feminine boy or masculine girl was ok after all without harming their bodies. Although obviously those success rates are dropping fast with all this advocacy.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25231780

The ones who continue on with this treatment and become transsexual have huge rates of other serious mental health problems besides gender dysphoria "notably personality, mood, dissociative, and psychotic disorders." Caitlyn Jenner for instance has narcissistic personality disorder which is among the most common.
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.160.7.1332

Their outcomes are extremely bad and all the serious studies recommend new treatments be developed including the original findings of the hospital that pioneered the surgery:
"We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs"
www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

All serious studies since then have mirrored those results. Self stated satisfaction in most patients, but no real improvement in outcomes or mental health and new methods of treatment are needed. Here is the largest long term study ever conducted for example:
"Persons with transsexualism, after sx reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric
morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sx reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as
treatment for transsexualism"
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939

All measures of outcomes are bad. Suicide, homelessness, severe mental illness, prostitution, serious drug addiction. Even violent crime rate is elevated. When you have a group of male patients who you have literally castrated and they still have elevated rates of violent crime you should be clued in to the fact that this treatment is not fixing their mental health issues. Any other drug besides estrogen would have been taken off the market.

There is a better way. This is not 1970 anymore. We no longer believe that being both feminine and male at the same time is something that needs to be fixed right? They can be encouraged to be themselves as feminine men instead of pretending to be women and struggling with identity issues, hiding in the closet afraid to be outed in public, having hormonal imbalances, needing lifelong therapy, being sterilized and having the kind of natural social problems that arise when you deceive people about yourself.

Do not give up on your children so easily.

One final thing
I urge parents to ask your child's psychiatrist a simply question.

Do they belive that what they are doing is literally fixing these children or do they view this is a tool to treat depression and social anxiety in feminine men and masculine women?

If they think they are literally fixing them with these treatments then run

Hello newcomers. I wish our meeting could be during less confusing times. I haven't checked in for a time and thought I would put an update out in case anyone is interested.

My 14-yr old daughter proclaimed herself trans over six months ago now. Her hair is short, she binds, and dresses male. I won't allow hormone therapy while she's a growing girl and she's okay with this. She has pretty much everyone in her life calling her by the male pronouns, but she has not yet told me to do so.

If you read my previous posts you'll see that this all came as quite a shock to me--she was girly and wearing make-up right up to the proclamation that she felt she was a boy. She also has many friends that identify as something other than hetero and she is on the Internet a lot. I can't help but feel that has had a massive impact on her decision. Also, this change came about shortly after she started dating a boy that has professed to be bisexual, but more attracted to males.

I was very happy to find others I could talk to on feeds like this, as I am a single parent. This is a very confusing situation and I find myself watching what and when I say certain things around my own daughter, which is just heartbreaking. This has all been very hard and confusing for her 10-yr old brother too.

Someone above mentioned that their child was being allowed to use the health room bathroom. I might inquire about this at my daughters high school because right now she holds it until she gets home. That can't be healthy for her and I worry so much about her attempting to use the boy's facilities.

I suppose all we can do is be supportive and hang in there. Sorry for the rambling, it's just really nice to talk to others that understand what I'm going through here. It's crazy how many of our daughters are 14 years old!

Can I just interject as a single mum of an 18 yr old transon, a bit further down the line from some of you. (In UK)

Binding is absolutely not encouraged now, sports vest or custom made binders are much healthier, we found these suppliers v helpful. (US based but quick service to UK. ) Underworks.com More like a supportive tanktop, as long as they are taken off for sleeping they are safe.I encourage taking it off in evenings too before supper just as I feel it can't be good for digestion all.day!

Can I also say no matter how much you think this may be a phase, & believe me I clung to that view for ages, just supporting your child & allowing them to explore all these frightening new feelings, while bloody hard for us is vital.
Calling them he/she as they wish takes some getting used to, but with practice gets easier. I don't cry every day or even every week now, but it is a shitty ride for parents, so get good support for yourselves too.

I remember our counsellor saying that this process is not linear, and there are a whole spectrum of changes that can be made quite simply before anything irreversible is done.For some having the namechange/ clothes change is enough to feel happier, some go on to transition fully, more grow up being their own gorgeous selves in whatever way they feel is right. The difficult bit for us is being there for them whilst dealing with the whole grieving process we feel as mums.

Thank god for MN!

Hi all and welcome to all the newcomers,
I have not been on here for a while and thought I would update.

My daughter came out as FTM earlier in the year and now has all friends using male pronouns and new name. We have a meeting in school in a few weeks with Tavistick and Camhs attending so no doubt complete transition in school will follow. I am trying to use new name/pronouns although still find myself skirting around pronouns!

Now had 4 Tavistock appointments each as excruciatingly awful as the last - I must admit I dread them! I know there is nothing the school can do - they are bound by law to accept J's wishes and nothing I can do about it either. I so much want to support her and am doing my best but do feel let down by the professionals who all just seem to accept everything she says without question. I have had some real lows over the last 6 months or so and tried to get some counselling/help myself but nobody I have been referred to so far feels that they are qualified to help! So I have given up.

I have joined the Mermaids support group but find it hard on there and they are all so positive whereas I am still very sceptical and hanging on to the hope that she will feel happy in her own skin. I try not to think too far ahead and just see where the next week takes us, that way I find I can cope much better.

It is good to find some like minded parents on here but also upsetting to find so many 14/15 year old girls presenting in this way and parents having to go through it with them.

All we can do is hang on in there.
Nikki

Hi Everyone,
sorry I have been off for quite a while. My daughter went through a rough period and was in the hospital for suicidal ideation. It has been a rough road. However, during the counseling we received at the hospital she never mentioned wanting to be a boy or even that she is gay. While she still wears loose clothes and wants to cut her hair short, she has not spent as much time talking about gender issues. I'm hoping (praying) that this is her dissatisfaction with herself (depression, anxiety and poor self-esteem) but there is no way to know right now. At this point, my husband and I are not using gender neutral pronouns and she hasn't insisted lately. Her school still lets her use the health room bathroom to change into her gym clothes but I haven't asked recently whether she has even been doing this. I sometimes want to shake her and ask if she knows what she is doing to us but I know it won't do any good since she is already so confused and in so much pain. My thoughts go out to all of you. I feel like I'm living in a nightmare and don't know where each day will take me.

Hi! Just wanted to update. For the last several months my daughter (16) was identifying as transgender. Now she no longer thinks she is a boy and admits she was confused. Not all of our children will keep this transgender identity. I know from experience that it is amazingly stressful to go through this with your child! There is still hope. If you are skeptical like me (because you know your child never displayed any discomfort with their gender before), please hang in there. Trust your gut instincts.

Nikki I felt the same in the Mermaids group. All lovely people but at that point I was in complete denial & really not coping.

I wanted to scream "but it's shit, it's wrong, I had a girl not a boy!!!" I went through a really angry phase (but managed not to lose it with DC) because I felt that I was being forced to accept something that with every fibre of my being felt wrong. definitely a lack of support for parents.

But it was wrong for me not him as it turns out, still battle with it but he is so much happier it does help a bit.

I think all we can do is deal with it one day/week at a time, get lots of people to talk to/with the DC & hope they end up making the right choices.

So how do we know what is "real" and what is a display of your child just being confused and unhappy with who she or he is at this point in time. My daughter still refuses to wear anything but plaid shirts and ripped black jeans. She is fighting us on wearing a dress to her Bat Mitzvah even though we refuse to budget. However, she has not brought up being a boy at all recently and even wore a turquoise tie die shirt to bed last night (I know I'm grasping at straws but anything with color is progress for us). She also mentioned that she doesn't know why all of the boys like the popular girls- my husband and I wanted to say: "why do you care if you are a boy". We have a long way to go in making our daughter feel happy and comfortable with who she/he is... but I just need to know who she/he is so I can move ahead and get myself together to support her. Anyone else feel like they are in limbo and frustrated with the lack of consideration for what this is doing to us?

Forgot to share with the group- my daughter threatened to kill herself a couple of weeks ago and had to be admitted to a psych hospital for a week (unfortunately she is 12 and adolescent units start at 13 so there are VERY few beds for 12 and under) After a sleepless night in the ER with a "watcher" in the room around the clock, they finally found a bed right before the weekend at an inner-city psych hospital. It was so scary watching my child transferred, strapped down in a gurney and being driven in an ambulance (I sat in front but couldn't see her). The stay was horrible- she saw another kid that needed to be sedated and two kids get into a fistfight on the unit. My husband says, on the bright side, she will NEVER want to go back again so, if this was an idle threat so she could get our attention since she is so overwhelmed, she will think before saying this again.

The one good thing about this experience was that we FINALLY had a productive family session and she never once mentioned being transgender (my husband is convinced this would have come up if it was a real issue). She is still in an intensive outpatient program but I am more and more convinced that it has done more harm than good (E.g. indulging these ideas rather than getting at the root of the problem which is both biological (depression and anxiety) and social (bullying, poor executive level functioning leading to bad grades, etc). We are trying a new counselor this evening who was recommended by the head of the intensive program. She is not covered by insurance but, if she is good, we will just cut back on eating out on weekends and buying small "splurge" items to cover the costs. If she isn't good, it is back to the drawing board.

I just want this nightmare to be over- every night I hold my breath to see what type of child I'm coming home to and it takes all of my strength after a long day at work not to shake her when she starts screaming at us about not being supportive and "Bossing her around"

Re Mom2A

There is no real and fake transgender. Transgender is a belief not a state of being.
Some boys are more feminine (and reversed) than normal. It is called being gay. Not homosexual always, but gay. A small percent develop gender dysphoria and reject their body in response. 80% overcome it and that's even with the terrible competence level of the gender specialists. I would advise not giving up seeing as how the post op suicide rates show no improvement.

There are also boys (this is only boys)who have transvestic fetishist disorder and have other things going on that made them want to become women. These are usually older people

I wouldn't recommend cosmetic surgery or hormones for either group. They are entirely negative. Encourage self esteem. Being both feminen and male at the same time is OK. They can not be female. They can only go into the closet pretending to be female

MOM2A- biggest of hugs to you, it's so scary. Xx

Reuben, I'm afraid that is not helpful, those are your opinions.

Latest figures show that with early intervention and support, trans teens are going on to lead succesful happy lives both in personal & career . The post op suicide rates you quote are those of older people who may have lived lives of misery and not had adequate counselling.

The Nottingham gender clinic who see hundreds of cases of dysphoria of all ages say they have found if teens are given adequate counselling, and the chance to work through their issues, wether gay, trans or just confused, they are happier individuals long term. If they make it to mid teens still determined to transition they very rarely change their minds.

If I had followed your line of thinking I would have lost my child.

Floudering - Where are you getting your claim from? There are no studies proving effectiveness in reducing suicide with this treatment. There are people who might claim that but I urge you to link us to the data showing it and will show you how it's BS
"The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive
research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. "
www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

There has only been one double blind study ever conducted on SRS and the results were bad
"We at Johns Hopkins Universitywhich in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs"
www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

All serious studies since then have mirrored those results. Self stated satisfaction in most patients, but no real improvement in outcomes or mental health and new methods of treatment are needed. Here is the largest long term study ever conducted for example:
"Persons with transsexualism, after sx reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric
morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sx reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as
treatment for transsexualism"
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939

80% of children treated in gender clinics grow out of it if you let them and decide that being a feminine boy or masculine girl was ok after all without harming their bodies. Although obviously those success rates are dropping fast with all this advocacy.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25231780

ReubenHandel, thank you for these useful references. I'm confused, however, about your distinction between the terms "gay" and "homosexual". We have family members who are in same-sex marriages and they use these terms interchangeably so this is the first time I have heard a distinction between them. about 6 months ago my daughter indicated that she is gay but has not expressed any interest in girls since then except to say some are "pretty". She has also indicated some jealousy that the boys like other girls (and not her). We do not know how to interpret this. I would say we are 95% fine with her being homosexual (the 5% only being worried that this will make things more difficult for her as she is still in middle school and kids tend to be less tolerant of difference until they get older). I want to understand why she hates her body so much, why she is so uncomfortable in her own skin that she feels she needs to "hide" behind cutting her hair, cutting long bangs that cover her face, and pretending not to wear makeup even though I find my makeup left out on the counter. Sometimes I wonder if she does this just because she knows how much it hurts me. If it is a phase, do I just indulge it? If it isn't a phase, why is she sending mixed messages.

Reuben some of those stats are for US & for adults, not children.

Obviously different for the US but in the UK it is very very hard to get ANY treatment for under 18's so the misconception that we're whipping off their boobs or penises & stuffing them full of hormones is untrue.

Why does it matter if it IS a phase, or if they DO grow out of it the fact is early intervention in many mental health issues with kids works. Just acknowledging their thoughts, allowing them to explore them in a loving supporting environment discussing options while getting professional help for child AND.family is the key.

I will look out thkse links later still at work so can'T answer fully but wanted to acknowledge your post.

All I can say is better a live child in a different body to their birth than a dead child who commits suicide because they are not listened to . All the theories in the world don't bring back u happy LO's.

Surely you have heard the term gay used as a blanket term for the lgbtq groups before. A boy who has cross gender behaviors is often called gay. You can call it whatever you want. The official term in psychology is "gender variance" which includes everyone in the lgbtq groups.

You will probably deny or not understand this but it is what it is:

All of the LGBTQ subgroups have the same root biological condition.

They part of their brain is like the other sex. This is how they devlope cross gender behaviors such as sexual attraction or any of the other traits that set off "gaydar"
Gender dysphoria is acquired not biological. A person who was raised feral and never exposed to other humans would never develop gender dysphoria. They would however have cross gender behaviors but the idea that they needed to change themselves to something else in response would never occur. That is learned behavior and a product of depression and social anxiety. The official term right now (they change it every few years for PC reasons) is gender dysphoria

80% will overcome gender dysphoria if you let them and accept themselves for who they are.
The 20% who does not usually have developed other serious mental illnesses in addition to juts their initial dysphoria. People suffering from long term clinical depression often develop other things. The most common is narcissistic personality disorder which is not surprising considering the fixation with their appearance
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.160.7.1332

Cosmetically changing their body and having them live socially in the closet as the opposite sex can alleviate social anxiety in them (if they can "pass"). If you feel you are fitting in more you aren't as anxious in public. But the problem is that the depression which initially led them to reject their body has not been addressed. And infact it has now been reinforced. And every once in a while they will remember that they are just pretending and that deep down they are something that they have come to believe was wrong and become suicidal. There are also problems with the other mental health issues getting worse since they are living in a kind of a delusional fantasy

They are living in the closet. There are other forms of closeted people that do the opposite of this and try to deny their feminine (gay) mannerisms instead of their body. I'm sure you've seen them. Their suicide rates are also high

Transsexual treatments can be effective as a last ditch placebo method (they will have 0% body parts of the opposite sex after everything is done) of treatment for an extremely suicidal person, but nobody is ever cured with it. They will need lifelong therapy. The 80% that accept themselves as feminine males and masculine females do much much better

The best treatment is to agree with the child that they are kind of like the opposite sex in some ways (which is not what they used to do) but disagree that this is something that needs to be fixed. They are different and that's ok. They don't need to change and hide who they are. Doing so has statistically bad outcomes

BTW sorry for the spelling errors. I did a quick edit and then copy and pasted and it messed up somehow and kept the unedited version

Thanks this is very useful advice and seems to fit my daughter to a "T"

By definition being attracted to males is a feminine trait
Being attracted to females is a masculine trait
This is infact the main gender specific behavior that femininity and masculinity guides you towards
I would try to explain the difference between instinct and behavior but that would probably confuse you.

Sad to say, but not all kids will be saved from potential suicide if their parents support them through social (and eventually medical) transition. Recently, there was a cluster of four transgender-identifying teens in San Diego that committed suicide even with supportive parents.
www.advocate.com/transgender/2015/10/07/san-diego-mourns-fourth-trans-teen-lost-suicide-year

mom2a
The key is not to dismiss their feelings. They are not crazy for feeling what they feel. They are kind of like the other gender in many ways. It's not that rare, show them examples. Ellen Degeneres seems kind of masculine doesn't she, but she is very successful and funny and doing great. It can be overcome and usually is

It might be tough, and if it gets really tough you might want to give in and agree because dysphoria can be very serious and hard to overcome and a temporary halfway kind of fix might be useful in some cases.

In that case DELAY everything for as long as you can. Reverse hormones and puberty blockers are not really reversible. They will cause lifelong damage. If you must then agree to the crossdressing first but not the drugs. DELAY
And always at every step of the way give your child lots of opportunity to go back. Imagine what it would take to de-transition in terms of courage