How DO you get the message through to your teen that THIS IS IT they have ONE CHANCE to try their hardest at school

[cyb]

Because my D (nearly16) just does not get it.

La la la , yes I'll do it tomorrow, no on else is doing it, it DOESNT MATTER MUM, I've got ages before it has to be handed in, I'll do it when I've finished that other thing,I've lost the piece of paper la la la if I hear ONE MORE airy fairy wafty reason why she can't do her work .....

She's a clever girl, really clever and I think that's part of the problem, she can coast in subjects and do well but others are slipping.

She's part of an intervention programme her school have initiated to support girls who aren't achieveing their potential and even serious chats from head of years or Deputy heads only seem to elicit the same nods and 'yes I' will's' that never materialise.

TELL ME WHAT TO DO

Oh I want to know too, just marking my place really

My parents could have afforded to support me through college but chose not to (they are both highly educated) I too had to support myself working all through university - term time and holidays. I was told that it was my responsibility to support myself and to decide whether I wanted an education. I was told that if I couldn't manage to academically achieve easily then I shouldn't expect to achieve at all. So I do understand an 'unsupportive attitude' and the effect it has.

So don't think you are 'projecting' - you just understand the consequences. I wanted my children to succeed and I wanted to help them to do it because of my own background. Maybe this is of no use to you but I have (in the past when something was proving difficult for one of my children) found that the specifications on the exam sites and the examiners reports helped my children to understand what was required. If your daughter is a bit 'paralysed' by it all give her a boost by showing her exactly what she needs to know and what a good answer looks like. The independent school model - it works.

Fargate your post here is really helpful, thanks.

poster fargate Wed 07-Sep-11 15:29:47

My year 9 isn't allowed any ps3 /xbox games over a 15 btw, and you can set a ps3 so it won't play anything above a certain certificate.

You can bribe/crack the whip/do whatever it takes to keep her on with the work but I think it pointless if the aim is for university. She will be away from home with a great social life and no one to keep her to deadlines etc.If she hasn't learnt to work because she wants the result rather than the bribe, she isn't going to keep up. Let her take the consequences and she will see the point of qualifications and get some because she wants to.

You know I guess exoticfruits is right too. If she really doesn't care then you will not be able to make her care.

But if she is just afraid and 'paralysed' then a bit of help might work wonders. People like success - it keeps them going - but you need to know what success looks like to achieve it. I am actually a teacher (English) and success criteria are the big thing in teaching, I feel that this is naturally and easily extended into exam practice. If you help a child to understand what is required for success then they will usually be able to achieve it. All the exam boards have this information on their websites. I have even been known to use them in class, it gives the children confidence.

I have to say that my approach is easier said than done. We love our DCs and don't want them to learn the hard way.

My DSs school had a monitoring system where those underperforming were flagged up and helped. Anything like that?

'fraid so, IMO caring enough to do the work is part of the qualification. I think there sometimes is also a 'fear of failure' as BreadandButterfly described 'I didnt try so I didnt fail'.

Is there something in laying out the facts but without critcism? These grades can lead to this course.. I was chatting with my hairdresser about school and she said the thing which had really brought her up short was realising that if she didnt get maths and english then she wouldnt be able to get on the hairdressing course which she wanted to do.. end of.. no recount.. no side door. Is there any way of setting a floor target (eg Maths & English)?

Apart from A levels what are the alternatives? Have these been discussed?

On the plus side I have found a solution to DS's long, tedious, involved explanations of xbox/minecraft/whatever. When my brain starts to melt I start explaining double entry bookeeping to him. He gets a warning and then I start explaining how to account for the acquisition of fixed assets. Works a treat every time!

When I hear things like this I'm always reminded of a boy i taught who was reasonably bright but VERY lazy. I encouraged/nagged him got his parents involved but nothing worked and he didn;t get the grades he needed.

he skulked in at the start of the next year, hid from me, and did his resists. He suceeded second time around bexause he was motivated as he'd tried all Summer to get a job but no one would take him because he didn't have a C in English.

Anyway , my point is that sometimes failing can be a very important and motivating lesson !

yy to whoever said they want the result without the effort. Don't we all? but the world isn't like that.

I've had a showdown with ds this evening because he showed me some shoddy (IMO - perfectly acceptable by his standards) work and I said "that's wrong, and do you want me to explain x to you?"

But I think if I don't tell him, who will? Yes, the teachers will I suppose but ultimately they're not going to have to deal with an unemployable and disaffected youth if he fails everything.

Anyway, I will keep reading this thread for tips. My dh was helpful tonight and said "hang on, you need to point out what he'd done well too and be constructive" (he was practically giving me a course on "how to give constructive feedback", irritated the hell out of me) and he was right :grudging: - I can't judge a 14 yo's work by my own standards.

But I'm also NOT going to say Oh That's Marvellous Darling! WHen it clearly isn't! It won't do him any favours at all. Hmm, hard, that line, isn't it?

AF - sorry if my 'I feel for you' sounded patronising - I have a somewhat younger dd who I can imagine potentially following your dd's path; bright but tendency to coast. So it hit a personal note.

Also, I have just started teaching 16-18 year olds in an FE college and I find it fascinating and heartbreaking. The classes are full of kids like your dd - many of whom have simply of idea of how (relatively) easy it is to achieve academically so don't even try; some come from backgrounds where they've never achieved particularly, don't know anyone who has and where no-one (including themselves) has any expectations they can or will. Some have undiagnosed special needs and have been massively let down by the system. My job is to get them through some (easy peasy) exams. It shocked me, coming from a v highly educated background, to see just how painfully low their expectations were; and this is from a quite respectable college.

bread it wasn't patronising, it was very welcome

am struggling atm

you are right actually...most of dd's couses are a mixture of coursework and exams

she is currently failing the coursework which is actually very easy

I actually feel like screaming when I hear her still reciting French numbers 1-10

she is in year 11, ffs

she was doing that in year 5...it's like she is stuck there

does that make sense ?

she doesn't have unDx special needs, btw, she just likes the familiar and is really, really lazy

I think, possibly, I might try quite a behavioural approach, with lots of little rewards for doing well in each module. The "big talk" approach of "this is very important" and "you only have one chance at this" from both you & head of year etc. doesn't seem to be working forher. Perhaps she finds it slightly scary and unmanageable when put like that. Saying "if you get A's and B's in all but one modules this term ( or whatever is right as a target for her) you will have earned a ..." might work better.

• You being very much the parent, and letting her be the child.

But it's only one idea, there could be many other approaches ! Also each evening when she's done X she can watch Y on telly etc. Some homework done each night etc. Try to take (back) some control rather than leaving the responsibility with her, since she's not managing so well with a more independent approach.

Hully there are a few boys from normal backgrounds (less money), but for whatever reason, they aren't all friends together.

AF I suppose I don't discuss discuss with Ds why he can't have xy or z beyond 'Can't afford it, no money' etc, but he's old enough and intelligent enough to understand what 'no' means without a big discussion. He does sulk, get angry, bangs about a bit and gets shouty, but I can only do what I can do at this point.

SHJ Ds has only just woken up/started to hear what I've been telling him for two years/realised (or all of the above) since he returned to school last week. I just hope it continues because prior to this term, he was the laziest sod ever!
Yes to the free dinner stigma and being picked on because of it. In April when he started having them, I think he said that there were only 17 boys having free school meals. 17 out of 1008 .

I wasn't pushed at all either, but I know Ds has a better brain than I had at his age and I would like him to be the first in our family to go to uni. Also, if he ever does bump into his 'father'... Ds is already so much better than him, so to go to uni... would be a big nose thumb.

Carrot and stick approach - used by my parents successfully. Bribe/reward if you did well, withdrawing privileges like music players, computer games, shopping trips/excursions if not. No tv in bedroom. No personal computers in those days but now I know some parents who unplug it from kids' room and put it in living room so that they can't spend hours on Facebook/ etc when they are supposed to be studying, then let them have it back if grades good for several months. It's about helping your teen achieve the potential you know they have. In our family, definitely some of us were better at self motivation, others did the rebellious teen thing (while secretly wanting the attention and boundaries). There's also the old chestnut of grounding them. And finally, take away their mobile phones while they're at home - they are not out, they don't need the mobile for emergencies. Texting, moaning and giggling to your friends for ages is a privilege, not a human right. They can always use a landline if she needs someone to talk to.

It can be done. Best of luck!

Horse, I really think it is a good idea to discuss discuss, especially as they get older. They can understand, and it makes them feel mature and responsible to be trusted with the truth and involved with how life really works. And somehow it takes some of the mattering away if they feel part of it all. IMVHO of course

AF - can't believe your dd is still reciting 1-10. :( Can you get her to watch French films with you, put French tapes on in the background etc? Lots of v good French films after all, lots of swoonsome men... Try Michel Thomas on CD - he's supposed to be v good at teacing languages in a natural way rather than grammar rules. I did say that few people can't do languages in an earlier post...then I remembered my dh, who really has no flair for languages at all and was stupid enough to choose languages for uni (mercifully dropped out after 1 year and chose a far more sensible subject he could shine at). So it is possible that languages just really aren't your dd's 'thing'.

But then again she chose them - so must have liked the idea (or were they compulsory?).

I know my dh finds memorising stuff really hard - I find learning stuff (like vocab) off by heart v easy, and find the logic of grammar rules easy, so kind of find it hard to see what he doesn't 'get' - but I think it's the learning stuff off by heart. Vocabulary just falls out of his head immediately. Plus I do get how hard/embarrassing it is to actually speak a foreign language to foreign people - will they laugh? Will they understand a word you say or just look blank? My reading skills in foreign languages are great but when I try to speak, French people inevitably just sigh and start addressing me in English - I think my accent is that bad.

The very best way to learn a foreign language is to get a boy (or girl) friend from that country. Though possibly getting your dd to cop off with attractive Frenchmen is just adding to your list of problems... ?

But then again, great for her French.

Maybe a less drastic solution eg French exchange, penfriends, online penfriends or tutor might provide some support/motivation?

In more general terms, I think I have always been v aware that education is a great privilege not a right - my parents came here as refugees, my dad's education was ended as a result and he had no opportunity to go to school/uni here at all. Eventually, in his 40's with 3 young kids he went to night school and did O Levels and law qualifications on top of a full-time job to get an education - I am just grateful that I have been able to get a great (and in my case, free) education. So I do impress on my kids how lucky they are to have the opportunities to study that they do, and that if they don't take those opportunities to the best of their ability then some doors will close, never again to be reopened. (Or bloody sight harder to reopen.) I suppose a classic first-generation immigrant immigrant mentality, really.

That's not to say that passing exams or getting As is the be-all and end-all because I don't think that either - lots of successful people didn't get an education or messed up their education. Force of personality counts for as much/more in reality. Certainly, the most successful people from my school in career terms haven't been the brightest or best qualified but those who were the most energetic and had the best shmoozing abilities.

What matters is that our kids are happy - getting an education does not = happiness. It can help one not to be in the automatic 'bin' pile for jobs, though. So others' suggestions of looking at possible jobs and entrance criteria is a good one. I've certainly taught students recently without the foggiest of what they might want to do and therefore no concept of what qualifications they need to secure now to allow that possibility to become a reality in the future, if they wanted to. It's no good denying that studying now is boring (well, for those not passionately into their subjects, which is the ideal situation, obviously) - compared to watching something good on the telly, say. But they need to understand that a few hours spent now will give them qualifications that will last a lifetime. There'll always be another crap tv show along. Maybe offer to video everything your dd wants to see, AF, and tell her she can watch them as soon as she's done her studying? Or if you're feeling v mean, once she's passed her actual exam (a huge tv marathon saved up for when the work is over?).

She will thank you for it - my dh often says he wishes his dps had made him knuckle down and advised him when he was younger. In his case, he did learn the hard way by failing stuff he should have passed, and has rectified it since - but much, much harder to do once you're also working and with kids etc. So he is v keen to keep an eye on the kids. For my part, I had no nagging at all (none needed, I was a swot :) ) so find the helicopter parent thing a bit alien... happy medium, hopefully...

AF - sorry, the phrase 'cry for help' just popped into my head. Could your dd be begging for firmer boundaries? Again, just a thought...

Sorry - long post, but it's a subject at the forefront of my mind due to discussions with my dh re dd. If anyone finds the ultimate one-size-fits-all answer, please let us know. :)

Thanks for that long post, BAB

I am reading everything on this thread with a fine tooth comb, so sooooo helpful

DD is raging against the boundaries already in place (and they are pretty firm). Like I said upthread (and I am sure is often the case) all this coincides with some risk-taking behaviours and general lack of respect for everyone and everything. It all gets mixed up together, doesn't it ?

Tougher boundaries would be detrimental at this stage I think. She has to want to do it. She doesn't.

but is it the absolute END, now, if they fail at this early stage?- I mean, is it really a case of 'THIS IS IT they have ONE CHANCE'- and one only??

or is it (relatively) easy to start over if you stuff up Y11?

...what I mean, AF, is is it an option for me you to let her go ahead and fuck it up, try her chances with work for a bit and see what happens? -when her friends are all at 6th Form and she's got to be up at 6am for her shift at the Co-op, she may well see the error of her ways?

or do you think that plan has flaws/too risky?

Thanks Hully I'll give that some thought :)

SHJ could that go one of two ways though? She could either think 'Ah well, I've messed up and failed so wont worry and I'll work in the Co-Op' or it could be the proverbial kick up the bum to retake and study properly in order to pass.

i agree with you - this is her 'one chance' in many ways. I don't think you are over-emphasising her academic performance by any means. I'm surprised by the responses you have gotten already, TBH. I also don't get the impression that you are "condemning" your daughter's choices - but why you would support a 16-year-old in poor choices is beyond me!

As far as it not being the end of the world if she doesn't do as well as she is capable of in school - well, ok, perhaps it is not the end of the world, but it is quite serious. And I don't agree either that there is nothing you can do about it. The pont isn't even whether she will eventually get a job and be able to look after herself! But right now, she is 16 - every choice - every door in the world - is potentially open to her. And those doors start slamming shut pretty quickly once you leave school.

So - What are the days like at your house? What is the routine for homework? What other activities does she do? What does this intervention programme at school consist of?

(sorry, I see that I missed reading a couple of pages of posts, so I see you have had a lot more diverse responses than I first thought!)

The "get a job" advice doesn't need to just be a way of scaring her, or instead of school. I think the most productive people I know, and times in my own life, have been the busiest. I know at school, having a part time job and hobbies I was loathe to give up took away the luxury of always being able to put something off. I would also only be able to take extra shifts, and make more money, if I was on top of everything at school. The only time my school work slipped was when I broke my foot and it was the only thing I had to do. There are some people who would struggle to take something extra on, but she sounds like someone for whom boredom breeds more boredom and in turn inertia (I was/am like this). There is no way I would advocate being busier to do well at school to everyone, but you will know if she might be better off busier (does she have hobbies, even)?

It isn't like you magically develop the ability to do more when you go to uni, even though there is more to do in terms of work, socialising, hobbies, cooking etc. Some people thrive when busier, is all, school isn't in itself that much stimulation if you are finding it easy.