Les Parisiennes des Mamansnet: Always Have a Ball Gown at the Ready in Celebration of Your Enemy's Demise

[botemp]

Lovers of Parisian style and fashion with a conscious mindset and lots of chatter in between.

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Favoured Parisian addresses:

Second Hand Shops

Outlets

Favoured London addresses:

Charity Shops, Dress Agencies, and Outlets

Favoured NYC addresses:

Consignment shops, Vintage, and Restaurants

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Previous threads:

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Well I've been to some Scandi homes where they're borderline hoarders. Especially the front hall during winter can get really clogged up with boots, coats, sports equipment, etc. What you see as a tourist walking around is generally some real £££ real estate but generally yes, the Scandi aesthetic is barer. I've always considered it a Calvinist thing alongside the obsession with cleanliness and hygiene (discussed this on here previously, I think it started with chat about rugs and cleaning it in the snow). Germany and The Netherlands are also quite minimal and embraced the modernist philosophy a lot more whole heartedly than the rest of the Europe.

Definitely go to the Jewish Museum mm47, it's not all that big but worth the trip.

I love a Helleborus plant for winter (when I manage to keep it alive) it's one of the few that bloom in the colder months, we call it King of Winter here. The Netherlands always sends out huge amounts of daffodil bulbs as humanitarian aid after major event, always thought it was a bit odd but after 9/11 they apparently meant a lot to New Yorkers when they popped up everywhere throughout the city in the spring as a symbol of hope. There were even some magazine covers dedicated to them, and I've met some New Yorkers over the years that still go on about them when they find out I'm Dutch.

When I was little we still had a tree with just real candles (they were only lit on the Advent Sundays) and that's still the prettiest tree I remember (but then our cat decided to jump it one time and that was the end of real candles).

Right, Peter Do, there was nice coverage of his latest show on Loïc Prigent's YT channel a few weeks back. I want to like it but I've yet to be won over and that largely has to do with how I encounter it (at full price or slightly discounted), it's playing at a price point of Chloe, The Row, Khaite, Jil Sander, Céline, Loewe, etc. without backing it up with quality, comparatively. I'm putting it down to teething issues, it's obvious they're specifying things to high finishes but they're just not getting it from whomever manufactures it. Their main USP is tailoring but while it's fine, it's not exceptional and when it's your USP it really should be and that's less a manufacturing issue and more a pattern drafting one. They're on a par with Joseph (that's taking into consideration that Joseph's quality has steadily deteriorated the last few years), which is nothing to sneeze at, it's still of a decent quality but for the price point it's just not worth it to me, but at sample sale prices I'd probably quite happily stock up on it.

Also to add with Peter Do, their sizing is all over the place, something you can grumpily accept at H&M but won't be as easily tolerated with such a niche brand that will primarily be bought online.

I have a Danish link in that my father's mother was brought up in Denmark (half English, half German, born on the day WW1 was declared), so we have a tradition of a hybrid Christmas, with our main Christmas dinner on Christmas Eve, complete with almond rice pudding and an almond prize

Don't think I quite manage the Scandi aesthetic in my home decor - although I do love candles and also have a lot of Clara Waever Christmas embroidery that my mum did (and one cross-stitch hanging that I did). My granny passed on her love of cross-stitch to her DIL who passed it on to me.

Oh yes, the Christmas windows and lights were lovely.

I like looking in the supermarkets - came back with all kinds of things that I'm not even sure what they are, but it'll be interesting to find out.

It was too cold to even think about trying on clothes but I am a big old wimp, I admit.

My recommendation for anyone going to Copenhagen is to try a Gasoline Grill burger - sooo good. Best one I've ever had.

I never saw a cardamom bun, I don't think, but it sounds just like my sort of food.

I hope I can go back one day and see a bit more - on my way out to the airport I saw something called the Danish Architecture Centre which looked quite interesting.

@botemp @Floisme and all others who helped me plan Paris - THANK YOU.

We had a ball, Really wonderful. It has been far too long since I have been there and had forgotten what a mighty city it is.

@botemp - we got our hair cut at Delphine Courteille. The stylist that took me was shocked by my hair - that gave me great confidence in him as truly - it was appaling. Anyway - I gave him carte blanche so he cut the whole bloody lot off! It is a pixie cut but somehow with LOADS of hair. I LOVE it. It is couterintuitive to go bare and short at almost sixty but it made me fresher looking somehow! DD also got an incredible cut. i was chatting to a woman there in very poor French. Turned out it was Courteille herself! Lovely person - I told her how I found her and about you Bo! 😂

I have been quite lost for a while really. This thread, my trip, exposure to sophistication that I have missed SO much really boosted my spirit.

I have to name change now but will be here and full of gratitude to you all!

Good to hear from you @Justasec321 , I had worried I'd sent you off to get murdered in a dark corner of Paris 😱 So exciting to hear you had a good time and excellent cut at Delphine Courteille's (were you cut by the Japanese man?) Does this mean I now get a referral discount 😎 (and I'm sorry that you'll need a standing appointment to go to Paris for your hair now , if you want to go bankrupt I have an excellent -albeit terrifying- facialist recommendation).

It all sounds a bit like you've had your own Mrs Harris Goes to Paris adventure and I'm so pleased for you. Definitely stick around and chitter chatter with us.

Catherine you're back already, good to hear you had a great time allround. I think Gasoline Grill is a Noma franchise, right? If it is the one I'm thinking of, I think there's talks of expanding them worldwide, they've done a few popups anyhow. What do your Ukrainian colleagues make of living there?

Cardamom buns have a very distinct look (see attached), I need to do some alterations to a recipe already to make them gut friendly for me. The secret is to hull whole cardamon seeds and then spend an extraordinarily long time trying to break down the seeds in a pestle and mortar for the best cardamom flavor (the lucky Swedes can just buy them coarsely ground like that, when it's down to the fine powder we get a lot of the flavour is lost). In London there's a few branches of Fabrique that do a nice cardamom bun (although they don't always bake them right in the UK, slightly underproved and then they're a bit stodgy).

Pretty I'm not a fan of rice pudding but I do love that the Danish have tried to make Risalamande sound sophisticated by making it sound French (riz à l'amande). The almond winner is somewhat reminiscent of the three kings celebration they do in France with finding the feve or bean in a galette de roi too.

@botemp - I don't like baked (English) rice pudding but I do love the Danish version, which is really just a sweet rice risotto with chopped almonds and lots of cream folded through it (as I describe it to those that don't know it).

@prettybird I know, I know, I'm just not a very dairy person, and while I like a solitary almond, marzipan makes me boak, so anything with lots of almonds puts me off too. I also really let the Asian part of me down for not liking the gelatinous like porridge mouth feel (congee), I'm very particular about how risotto must be cooked, I only really trust proper Italians (or those instructed by Italians with great Italian food tradition terror) with it.

(And, yes, I'm an absolute nightmare to cook/eat with )

@botemp Yes! The Japanese man cut my hair. when he first checked my hair before cutting he said "mais c'est quoi ca? C'est n'importe quoi". 😁As I said, it gave me great confidence in him! Thank you Bo.

Just googled Mrs. Harris goes to Paris.....WHY have I never heard of this. Tonight is sorted!

Only one of my colleagues lives there, she moved just after the war started. Her husband is Danish and they'd travelled back and forwards a lot pre-war, so she wasn't going somewhere completely unknown, but even so, she said she didn't really feel part of the community (for all kinds of complicated reasons). She wasn't overly keen on candles everywhere (dangerous) - lamplight (impractical) - Danish food ("slice of bread with stuff on it, I can do that at home") - lack of hills around the city - expensive everything. Some of that was clearly more about missing home. She did love being close to the water.

The others were visiting her for a bit of socialising together and it seemed like a good opportunity to meet.

A lot of colleagues have relatives in other European countries - Poland, Germany, etc - and went to them - either temporarily and are now back in Ukraine, or for the duration.

Surprised to get any sort of bun in the UK that isn't stodgy, to be honest. Ha. Honestly food is so bad here in general with only the odd bright spot and it seems like ages since I found one.

I don't know if Gasoline is a Noma franchise or if they just had a collaboration. Either way - hope they do expand - but also, hope they will not lose what makes the food so good. (they will, it always happens)

Yay for getting your spirit boosted, Justasec. It's more important than we admit to ourselves a lot of the time.

Your discussion, ladies, made me so hungry. For the Parisian haircut (sounds wonderful, @Justasec321) for cardamom buns and even for Danish bread with things on it. The Danes do know how to put interesting things on their bread (for instance, various kinds of pickled fish) and I've grown to appreciate it over the years. But I also have friends who didn't grow to love Denmark and after a few years living there moved back to Britain. There is a strong sense of a titular nation there; a great place for Danes, but maybe not everyone else. London, by contrast, is a cauldron of world cultures..

Another hunger you, bo, awakened is to see that ideal tailoring you are referring too. I think I might not have ever seen the kind of quality you say is missing from Peter Do. I might just have to go to somewhere like Harrods and be all creepy going around and handling the clothes. I saw some The Row tops in the Liberty and they did stand out but more because of the spectacular design (a cross between a poncho and a formal top). I doubt I'd be able to see the difference between a very causal jumper or trousers from Chloe or Khaite and Peter Do. [goes away in search for more sophistication].

I went away and thought about it and now I am back with a question (a sacrilege, really);
But taken into account all these things that are happening with Balenciaga (hundreds of pounds for distressed Stan Smiths), bags worth £10,000 acting as bonds more or less, do you think that:
There is a price point at which quality can't be improved any more and the difference is just inflated price reflecting brand identity rather than tailoring or design, quality of the cloth, etc.
Clearly, for instance, there can be excellent bread, and beyond a certain price for it, one can't make a better bread, bread costing £500, £1000. Ultimately, billionaires will eat bread that many many people can afford. Isn't it the same for clothes? Even couture would probably work best as gowns, even costing millions, that belongs to the red carpet, but everyday top or chinos just would not warrant those price tags.
I saw a Prada shirt in my local second hand shop. It was quite ordinary. Better quality fabric, seams etc than H&M but not better than Margaret Howell. [I shut up]

I have no answers for your questions micro

I enjoyed your report Catherine, I haven’t been in Denmark for ages, now I want to go and visit again.
and justasec so happy for parisean experience, sounds like you had a terrific time.

I went to a Christmas market that attracts all sorts of sellers and price points. I got a long skirt in a heavy African cotton, which I think I can wear with a black polo neck for new year, I also got a very cosy wool hat made in Scotland.

I love rice pudding and also love porridge. Slightly off track here … I am always baffled at how the Scottish make their porridge with sea salt flakes. I much prefer sweet with honey.

I've never heard of St Catherine's day before (godless heathen that I am, and after reading the wiki entry that it's about praying for unmarried 25yo women I probably would have been better off of not knowing about it) but really enjoyed watching this about the tradition at Dior:

Catherine, thanks for the reply, yes, I can imagine it's hard to settle in Denmark and feel welcomed within a community (her complaints remind me of my international school days where we'd be homesick and compete with how absolutely awful everything was, even air can be wrong ). I'm with her on the open faced sandwiches though, it's just bread with stuff on it and when you need cutlery to eat it, it's no longer a sandwich.

Micro tbh it's sometimes just good luck when brands have good tailoring. Victoria Beckham had a good cutter (or perhaps a team of them) for a while and was also in luck by being shown the ropes by Roland Mouret (allegedly) when she started so had all the right factory and industry introductions as well. For a while she offered really high quality and interesting tailoring at quite low prices (especially in the diffusion brand there was no real difference between the two brands, if anything the diffusion brand had more interesting construction techniques) and no one reported on it, mostly focusing on dresses and colour blocking. Now the brand has evolved into mostly being what was reported on 🤷

Anyhow, Saville Row is probably a lot more interesting for observing actual tailoring as opposed to fashion tailoring in a high end brand in a department store. I think many mistake good tailoring for anything that looks razor sharp but it's actually found in really small details that build to something without flaws. This blog isn't that active anymore but the archive is a treasure trove, it really zooms in on these small adjustments to fit with runway examples. It's officially pattern drafting but really it's designing. The two are often split up, designer designs something in a sketch, cutter drafts pattern of design and the relationship between the two can be either very hierarchical or collaborative, the latter makes for more interesting clothes for people who are into construction, tailoring, etc. and the former is more in your face Fashun. Usually, as above, sometimes happy accidents happen and a really good cutter gets away or is given the leeway with designing in the pattern but a big ego designer will want a cutter to be more like a worker bee and do exactly as told. Then there's the rare breeds that are designer and cutter in one, Cristobal Balenciaga, Alexander McQueen, Rick Owens (another brand with excellent tailoring but the tailoring goes by unnoticed, but good tailoring does that, it's discrete and not instantly legible).

Wrt Balenciaga I think you're off on a tangent of sorts. It's mostly young rich kids of new wealth that think it makes them Fashun. It's entirely conceptual and the last person who successfully conned his clientele into being a parody of itself was Karl Lagerfeld at Chanel. It's commercially hugely successful and difficult to replicate.

I must stress Demna Gvasvalia is a very talented designer who delivers some amazing things but, reluctantly, at this point it's difficult to distinguish Balenciaga from a merch store. Personal opinion, but for the sake of his artistic integrity (as he does seem to care for that in a way Lagerfeld didn't) I think he needs to move away/on for a bit. Haute couture at Balenciaga seems to be an attempt at that but IMHO more distance is required. Who knows, maybe this current Balenciaga advertising scandal will allow him a good excuse for an escape.

Anyhow, as for billionaires and the quality plateau, that's not Balenciaga territory (although the haute couture division obviously would like a piece of this pie). At a certain price point it's no longer a representation of quality but it just becomes about scarcity that drives ££££ price tags, eg. baby cashmere from animals of a specific age and specific part on the body that can only ever be harvested from an animal once and you need the yield from 1500 animals to make one jumper (I made these numbers up), and it's extremely delicate and will probably wear out within a very short time. It's not necessarily even about owning something as exclusive as that, it's about somebody else not having that, when luxury bores you, then it's exclusivity that will entice. Hermès rations its goods, to billionaires, which never fails to amuse me. When you translate that bread, buying out the bakery so no one else can have bread, it rather reveals why billionaires shouldn't be a thing...

I remember reading at the height of the designer bag trend that that the price wasn't just a reflection of vision, craft and quality, that it was about signalling. Having one on / under your arm was a way of telling other people in the know that you were one of them. I assume it applies to clothes too beyond a certain point. I think the reason I admire Savile Row tailors so much is that not only are they supremely skilled but there's no ego involved. Very few people know your name and you barely even get a look in at the V&A menswear exhibition. (Sorry, still pissed off about that.) The same appliers to seamstresses and couture sewers. They really are the unsung heroes.

Ok you've all convinced me about Borgen. We'll have another go at getting the sub titles to work, otherwise I think I'd rather try and learn Danish than listen to that dubbing again.

Also thanks everyone for the reading and online learning suggestions. I definitely like the sound of a V&A class. The online reading subscription is a great idea too, except that I still really like the physicality of books and magasines. But an audio option is tempting and, if my eyesight goes the same way as my mum's, I might grow to appreciate a zoom-in facility. Also I was recently looking through some of the books I'd kept to re-read in retirement and I have to admit, they haven't aged well: yellow, brittle pages and OMG such teeny, teen print.

Justasec321 thank you, I'm not sure I really did anything to deserve such a nice compliment but I'll take it! Hope you stick around. You too prettybird

I'm in the corner with the rice pudding lovers. And custard. Which is weird cos normally I don't much like milk.

Yes it-bag mania was definitely one of showing off your wealth, but it was much more about being on the in. It's the closest the vox pop gets to buying like a billionaire. It was often about having the right contacts to secure the bag as well as having the money (or, more likely, the ability to live off pot noodles for months). And since it was pre internet shopping days (for luxury goods anyhow) if you lived outside of one of the fashion capitals it was even harder to secure one and thus the status was even higher in your little pond.

It spawned the whole 'limited' edition thing that evolved into FOMO with influencers hype and drop shipping. The latter is/was (when M&S starts putting out press releases about waiting lists for a sleeping cream you know this wave is ebbing but it still continues in specific spaces) a highly manipulated and coordinated progression of that original chaos.

I remember an episode of Sex and the City where Samantha was trying to get hold of some Birkenstocks.... way ahead of the curve that programme. (The original one - no-one will persuade me to give the follow up a go.)

Thank you for the responses, and bo, for the explanation and the link to the blog. I was going to ask, and this was a question from our old discussion of Alexander McQueen, whether you can see excellent pattern cutting / tailoring from a picture / fashion show or you really need to handle and examine the item (or even try it on). I think the blog you linked shows that some things are visible from a photograph.

Again amazed at the immense knowledge and detail. What bother me though, is that, I think, if I trained myself to have such an eye for detail, I'd find everyday life unbearable as most things are sh.t. Old housing stock in the UK with everything wonky, misaligned, half-done or badly done. Or people wearing clothes that really doesn't fit them properly (especially visible with cropped trousers trend). One kind of learns to look through half-closed eyes. How do you, sharp-eyed, survive?

And very interesting about exclusivity rather than luxury or ideal quality (the buying of bakery to prevent others from accessing it). Anecdotally, I recently read complaints about talented chefs being hired away from restaurants to become personal chefs to the billionaires... And this being seen as a loss to the public.

Continuing this line of argument, this basically mean anything can be made exclusive, even if it's not good at all; and then one really gets the reverse argument of modernists, that amazing things can be mass produced (buildings, furniture, etc).

I think CC41, the Second World War Clothing label was arguably a good example of the reverse: utilitarian, mass produced clothes made to government specifications that were great quality and still look good today. I'm cross with myself because I used to own quite a few pieces - they were easy to pick up in the 70s - but I trashed most of them. My parents generation couldn't wait to see the back of it and no-one had a clue that it might become collectable. I guess I'm not so sure of whether it was seen as high quality at the time.

Flo, I don't remember Samantha buying Birkenstocks, were you thinking of the Birkin bag? CC41 would definitely be the flip side of scarcity design. Excess does tend to be the death of creativity where restriction is it's inventor.

Micro, yes, it's always amusing to me that billionaires (I'm excluding the oligarchs types here) build their vast wealth on the back of speculative value and they're the most gullible for artificially inflated value items with a good enough story. Perhaps that's how we tolerate their existence, they're just as foolish, if not more, in their consumption, so really they're just like us?

I think the main issue with the modernists was their desire to make everyone live in and become like machines. It was quite the cult of technology and science, and we're seeing it a bit again today in Silicon Valley, outside of that bubble people aren't as trusting when it comes to things like self driving cars and implanting technology into their body. It also completely separated itself from the knowledge and tradition of craft and branded it inferior. I think only Japan really comes close to having high quality industry where people feel it superior in limited areas. We are slowly seeing craft and industry merge as labor becomes ever more costly, so perhaps the modernists will finally see their outlook achieved, technology just needed to catch up as a complement rather than a replacement.

Wrt to how the sharp-eyed survive, for one I don't really care much about other people's easthetic choices. I don't really see the point of judging others by my own standards, I'm happy enough to be a snob about certain things but it should only affect me (and I suppose those who voluntarily put up with me). And I don't mind the opposite end of the spectrum either, there's a lot more aesthetic interest in the unintended, chaos, the wonky, accidental, etc. than there is in perfection (it tips into boring really quickly), wabi sabi, and all that. It's more of a counter position to the mediocre middle, the mass produced that is designed by committee and efficiency that is off putting. Since that's hardly ever exciting, it's also relatively easy to ignore.

Yes, you can see the quality of tailoring in photos but video is probably better, especially since photos are rarely untouched so something can be photoshopped to look well tailored (fit wise) when it isn't.

Not the Birkin one. I was sure there was an episode about Birkenstocks cos they were so not Samantha'a usual style, but she was obsessed with getting some and Carrie and Charlotte were totally bemused. I remember it so well but there's nothing about iton Google. Maybe I dreamt it

Or maybe it was a Seinfeld episode and I'm getting mixed up? And yet I can remember it so well ....