Canada Goose - too hot for London?

[londonmummy1234]

I brought myself a Canada Goose Mystique Parka... it was pricey at £1100 but apparently lasts forever blah blah.
It arrived today and it feels really hot and heavy to wear but all the other mums in London seem to be wearing CG?!
What's people's experiences with it and if too hot can they offer an alternative?
Looking for a long coat and padded! Thanks

I see the argument that is part of using animals but shearing itself isn't cruel.
I guess that was point I wanted to make. (Unless done badly I guess)

It isn't like leather which is a byproduct of an animals death. Shearing is an animal welfare activity.
Without shearing the sheep run a much higher risk of issues like flesh eating maggots as well as the general discomfort.
Watching the lamb like skips that sheared sheep do when they first lose their winter coats makes it clear that they enjoy the sensation of their haircut.

I understand that some people don't want to have any part of using animals or what they produce.
For me using a natural byproduct of sheep is more ethical than using plastic.
But either way sheep shearing isn't cruel.

@CruCru I will let you know how the MaxMara is although I'm just waiting for my two refunds to come through before I buy another coat! Husband is already annoyed at me!

@snowliving

I see the argument that is part of using animals but shearing itself isn't cruel. I guess that was point I wanted to make. (Unless done badly I guess)

It isn't like leather which is a byproduct of an animals death. Shearing is an animal welfare activity.
Without shearing the sheep run a much higher risk of issues like flesh eating maggots as well as the general discomfort.
Watching the lamb like skips that sheared sheep do when they first lose their winter coats makes it clear that they enjoy the sensation of their haircut.

I understand that some people don't want to have any part of using animals or what they produce.
For me using a natural byproduct of sheep is more ethical than using plastic.
But either way sheep shearing isn't cruel.

I understand you @snowliving.

If wool was produced from happy sheep living long lives in a healthy environment and being shorn now and then I wouldn’t have a big issue with that personally. But it’s not, the shearing is one part of the whole and buying wool means you’re supporting the whole.

I linked in my post to Izzy Lane - she produces wool from a no-kill flock. The sheep are rescued, including some from slaughter. To me that sounds like a situation where sheep are shorn, but there’s not all the other stuff that goes along with commercial wool production.

Me too, pensive. I try to avoid plastics but need water-resistant coats - my compromise is trying not to wash them much. Wool makes me itchy, even over a cotton later unless it's good merino or cashmere, which comes with its own problems. Not itchy usually means plastic.

I try to buy organic cotton from ethical clothes companies. Expensive unless in the sale. Tencel and lyocell are forms of viscose that are ok.

I'm often put off buying anything and end up wearing the same clothes I have even though they've seen better days.

I've bought shoes from Ethletic (organic cotton canvas and rubber made under fair trade conditions in Pakistan), Tikki (fair trade leather I think, made in Romania I think) and Groundies, made in Portugal, as well as vivo barefoot (leather and recycled plastic and they take back shoes for recycling).

Patagonia is good for coats. There's a company called nu-in doing more reasonably priced basics made in Turkey, but I don't know what they're like, haven't ordered anything. I'm even more wary now with the situation in China about so many brands, cheap, mid range and designer.

@PBJelly - another good post. I do agree that everyone needs to do their bit to address many of the issues in the world today, and nothing will ever happen if everyone thinks they are acting alone and so what is the point.

However, you pointed out you live in London. I live in NZ, and in a rural support town in a farming area, so things are very different here. If everyone suddenly decided that they no longer wanted to eat meat, drink milk etc. this would have a massive impact on the country and on the rural areas. Having lived through a farming downturn I am very well aware that anything which affects the farming community also affects the towns which rely on those rural people for much of their income, so while I would like to see animals not being farmed for humans (which has been going on for centuries after all) I have to balance the well-being of people along with that, and I imagine that is much easier to do in London than it is here.

You say pragmatist, I say happy to turn a blind eye to animal cruelty if it causes you any inconvenience.

Easy to say - unless you live in a rural area where people rely on farming animals to earn their living. Some of you people simply have no idea about rural life.

Everyone we drive through Richmond we see plenty wearing these jackets. Even if I had the money I wouldn't buy CG because I don't agree with wearing real fur.

*everytime even

Also @FamilyOfAliens - by saying I am a pragmatist I meant that I am not so ridiculous to imagine that I am going to wake up one morning and find that every single person in the world has suddenly decided to never eat/drink/wear animal products ever again - and you need to grow up if you think that is going to happen.

You just carry on in your cosy little privileged world however, don't worry about how others are going to put food on the table. MN is like a whole other world sometimes, and that world bears little reality to the one some of us live in.

@snowliving - you and I are wasting our time on this thread. I suspect the majority on MNers are city dwellers, and don't know the first thing about rural life. Presumably in their utopian world the sheep who are already in existence should just grow their wool until they collapse and die from the weight of it, or from the effects of the heat. God forbid that we should help out by choosing to wear wool!

Oh dear, @eaglejulesk

Methinks the lady doth protest too much

@eaglejulesk , I get you. I am not vegetarian or vegan. I support farmers and I think there would be environmental and economic problems if everyone decided to become vegan overnight. Equally, it is my belief getting full nutrition is more problematic within a vegan diet, I know some would argue the opposite which I fully acknowledge but for me, the jury is still out. I have experienced some of the health problems associated with too much carbohydrate and vegetable oil consumption (as outlined by Dr Jason Fung).

Although, saying this I love wildlife animals and see their intelligence all around. And equally, I think plant species have an equal but different perception/ intelligence and have read some very interesting studies about tree communication, biological trading and perception. So where does that leave me?

I try to avoid inflicting cruelty and pollution as much as possible but accept that I am part of a food chain and will have an impact on our environment.

@pensivepigeon - thank you for your post, I'm pleased to see that someone understands. Your final sentence is exactly the way I feel. We are all part of a food chain, just as wild animals are, and while they don't farm animals to eat they certainly kill what they need, and the death of their prey is not always pleasant.

I can't help but wonder what the idealists think would happen if everyone stopped eating meat tomorrow. Those animals alive at the moment would keep breeding and we would be in for an environmental disaster after a few years.

@eaglejulesk no worries.

@eaglejulesk and @pensivepigeon - don’t you think that making a case against veganism because of the potential impacts (on jobs, food chains or whatever) if ‘everyone went vegan overnight’ is a straw man?

It’s not, ever, going to happen. Not everyone will go vegan overnight. So the potential difficulties that could arise if that happened are neither here nor there. It’s not gonna happen. It’s not something that we need to worry about. Latching on to those very hypothetical problems that will never eventuate in reality detracts from the real underlying issues of the argument. So a straw man.

What is going to happen (what is already happening) is gradual change - individuals changing what they eat and wear and do. And this over time leads to structural change at a large scale - what we would want is that jobs would shift, communities adapt, and the number of animals being farmed would gradually dwindle. Obviously we’d need to manage this - to support new ways of living, new jobs and so on.

Would anyone argue against moving away from fossil fuels to renewables because if everyone stopped using fossil fuels overnight they’d be loads of people out of a job? Because there would be power shortages as renewables couldn’t meet our energy demands? Because we haven’t quite ironed out all of the potential issues with renewables? Or do we all accept that in reality what should happen is we gradually build up our renewable sources and wind down our fossil fuels and over time we’ll get there? I think it’s the same sort of thing.

I also don’t see the comparison between us and wild animals that eat meat to survive. Firstly because, unlike an animal, we don’t need to eat meat to survive. We have alternatives (in developed countries in any case - recognise this doesn’t apply to all communities....) and we have a choice. We have these amazing capacities - intelligence and conscience. I don’t see how what other animals do (or what our cavemen ancestors did for that matter) as a key factor in my decision of how I live, as a person with intellect and the ability to consider the ethical impact of my actions, in 2021.

Secondly, it’s about more than just individual humans eating individual animals. Unlike wild carnivores, we are having an impact that is harming not just the animals we eat - but the world as a whole. It’s about the way we live, the way we treat animals on a global scale. We have become a dangerously dominant species. We farm animals to such an extent that it’s doing horrific damage to the environment (meat and milk consumption being a major contributor to global warming and deforestation). We eat 50 billion chickens a year. 1.5 billion pigs a year. Think about it, how are we ok with the impact we’re having as a species? And how are we ok with not doing our own, individual, small bit to contribute to making things better?

www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/chart-of-the-day-this-is-how-many-animals-we-eat-each-year/

www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

interactive.carbonbrief.org/what-is-the-climate-impact-of-eating-meat-and-dairy/

I live in an area where it’s snowed non stop it seems since Xmas, and it’s very cold.

There’s one for sale on a local fb group as it’s too hot. No ones bought it.

No one’s

Firstly because, unlike an animal, we don’t need to eat meat to survive.

As I have said, I am concerned over the health implications. Yes, some cultures eat no or very little meat but there is biological diversity across swathes of peoples and (epi)genetic adapatations. Some people have a genetic propensity to be allergic to milk products, some have a sensitivity to alcohol and some are more prone to metabolic diseases. My diet is fairly traditional to my own family culture in terms of foodstuffs. As I said upthread, I have experienced some of the health issues Dr Jason Fung talks about. So 'need', I think is a moot point.

Not everyone will go vegan overnight

And for this to be so you need some people like me!

Added to this how do you justify the amount of intensive mono culture farming of plants PBJelly, if a significant number of people decided to be vegan? As I alluded to earlier, from the studies I have read, I view plants as sentient beings. I am as concerned over plant life as much as I am animal life.

@pensivepigeon no, we need people like you, who are engaged with the issues and want to protect the environment and animals to go vegan! Because for every person like you there are many people who don’t have veganism on their radar, don’t care about animals and don’t care about the environment Its those people that are the reason we won’t all go vegan overnight.

On the point about plant agriculture - I completely agree that there’s a lot of balances to be made - but as we’d need much less land to feed the world if we all ate more plants and less meat, I think this has to be the way forward. So much land is being used to grow plants to feed animals that are then slaughtered to feed humans - if we used this land to grow crops we’d need so much less and could look at rewilding land, repurposing land. Any transition would happen over time and would need to be managed, but essentially a world where we didn’t eat meat would mean a lot less land would be needed to support us all.

Anyway much as I have enjoyed speaking with you and others about this, I’m going to have to say over and out as I’ve got a mountain of work to catch up on.

Take care!

no, we need people like you, who are engaged with the issues and want to protect the environment and animals to go vegan!

Sorry, you've not convinced me yet. I am still concerned about the health issues regarding never eating meat or any animal products.

• but as we’d need much less land to feed the world if we all ate more plants and less meat, I think this has to be the way forward.

Not sure about that one. Many vegetable oils and grains for humans are mass produced with a negative environmental impact. They are imported all over the world too. I eat less of them than many vegans will. Where I live the environment is ideal for farming livestock.

Entirely misses point of thread, but I saw Ellie wearing a DryRobe on Countryfile the other week and I was completely baffled! I even went onto their website to see if they’d started selling coats, but nope.....t’was a bit odd but apparently it’s a thing.

What is going to happen (what is already happening) is gradual change - individuals changing what they eat and wear and do. And this over time leads to structural change at a large scale - what we would want is that jobs would shift, communities adapt, and the number of animals being farmed would gradually dwindle. Obviously we’d need to manage this - to support new ways of living, new jobs and so on.

Once again lofty idealism. If it could ever happen - and it certainly won't be in my lifetime - what are these new ways of living, new jobs etc? In the current world so many jobs which thousands of people used to do have disappeared because of technology, if farming (other than plants) was to go what on earth are those people involved in farming supposed to do? You are presumably in the UK, where people can live their whole lives without any exposure to rural life and ways, but other countries have their economic success based on farming - what are they going to change to which will ensure the livelihoods of their citizens are protected? Remember, this has to be something which is not going to harm the environment, and presumably fishing is also out. I suspect you also interact mainly with like-minded individuals and have little knowledge of those who will NEVER change their ways when it comes to things like eating meat. I also wonder if you have any idea about the use of chemicals in food production, or is the whole world suddenly going to embrace organic food (which generally costs more).

As for the gradual change in what individuals eat, wear and do - this has been going on for a long time, veganism is not something new.

As I said in an earlier post I applaud your ethics but I'm afraid my days of being an idealist are long past. We are killing our planet, I certainly agree with that, but there are so many other things which need to be addressed, and I'm sure you will agree that is not happening at the speed it should. I would also like to mention that while I am not a big meat eater I do eat chicken and fish, and to be honest I really have no intention, or even wish, to change to a plant based diet. I will also continue to wear wool as it is so much superior to any man-made fibre.

I’m in Toronto. People don’t wear CG much anymore. Reminded of this article from NYMag recently:

www.google.com/amp/s/nymag.com/strategist/amp/article/best-canadian-coat-brands-not-canada-goose.html

Last winter I saw some overseas students wear CG. Just don’t go for the comparable Moose Knuckles, which drug dealers seem to favour here.
Agree with PP - Arc’teryx!

@PBJelly well argued 👏👏

@pensivepigeon

no, we need people like you, who are engaged with the issues and want to protect the environment and animals to go vegan!

Sorry, you've not convinced me yet. I am still concerned about the health issues regarding never eating meat or any animal products.

• but as we’d need much less land to feed the world if we all ate more plants and less meat, I think this has to be the way forward.

Not sure about that one. Many vegetable oils and grains for humans are mass produced with a negative environmental impact. They are imported all over the world too. I eat less of them than many vegans will. Where I live the environment is ideal for farming livestock.

An average meat eater might eat less of those grains directly, but would be responsible for more commercial plant production than an average vegan.

Energy is lost at each stage in the food chain - so plants>humans is much more efficient than plants>animals>humans.

So while you might eat less soya than me, for example, as a meat eater you’re responsible for more soya production than me, because that cow you ate was fed soy. A lot of it. More than you’d need if you ate the soy directly. Because of energy loss.

Hence if people weren’t eating meat, we’d need less crops overall, we’d have more land available for other things etc.

Something like 85% of the world’s soy crop is fed to animals. To then feed those animals to humans. Soy production for farming is a leading cause of deforestation in the Amazon.

That’s not to say that I think that eating plants directly don’t have a negative impact - we’re all placing demands on our world. But vegans need less raw material (plants) than meat eaters, so we are having less of an impact.

As well as the crop requirement, a vegan diet produces much lower carbon emissions for other reasons (deforestation for grazing and methane emissions of cattle being two significant ones).

There’s loads of this online including carbon calculators and estimates vary but an average meat eater is responsible for about twice the carbon emissions of a vegan.