Les Parisiennes de Mamansnet: L'enfer c'est les Autres

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I've just been reading some of the write ups and realising how little I knew about her. What an amazing life. And I hope I am allowed to say - on here if not anywhere else - a very cool dresser too.

It's sad that there will be so little time to reflect on what she achieved and that her legacy will be such a vicious power struggle. If a fraction of what I've been reading is correct then the portents are grim.

But as an outsider who doesn't really understand the American judicial system, I confess I am also baffled as to how it has come to this: how women's reproductive rights in the US could be so fragile in the first place that they depended on the survival of an 87 year-old who had Cancer.

Women’s reproductive rights in the us are extremely fragile and at constant risk or erosion. Through defunding of the support agencies such as planned parenting, through state legislation refusing doctors access to hospitals, in so many ways. Roe v wade is under siege on all sides.

think that's a narrow take but not one to be dismissed in these times. The republican/democrat narrative doesn't apply as much in the Supreme Court even if it is very confusingly political to us. I've forgotten the exact terms but it's institutionalists who respect precedent and I've forgotten the name of those that challenge and seek to overturn but those would still remain a minority even with another one. Chief Justice Roberts is a republican but is an institutionalist and I don't see him suddenly overturning things so the balance isn't as effected as it appears. I think it's more rights of workers and discrimination protection that is going to be at play now which will further drive wealth apart and diminish social mobility. Which is just as shit but a different shit. RGB was key on recognising you had to fight for it all to protect it all without her it is indeed very fragile.

And, yes, very cool dresser, but then I struggle to name a woman who made a mark to not be. Loved how she always played with neck pieces and necklaces with the robes but outside the robes she was an exciting dresser too.

This is what I mean about being baffled, that America seems so proud of its constitution and its checks and its balances and yet, from where I'm sitting, it does not look like a good place to be a woman. Abortion rights hanging by a thread and, as I understand it, no national right to paid maternity leave.

2020 really just sucks. RIP, RBG.

The thread has long been cut, Flo, in so many places it's just impossible to get one, all through ridiculous loopholes like hallways all have to be a certain width all of a sudden, shutting down clinics immediately that didn't comply. You can drive a ridiculous distance sometimes but those that need them often don't have the funds and/or means.

Oh I know. I am just exasperated by liberal America.

With few exceptions, I am despairing of America and Americans across the board at the moment. It's hard to think of anything the USA is doing well right now. Their politics are toxic, the politicians a geriatric farce, the police aren't trusted, academia and the commentariat are blindly woke to idiocy, antifa v MAGA rages on, all the while failing to curb the ability of the criminally insane to acquire firearms at will and use them indiscriminately. Climate change: as XMIL once said, America will drive to the poorhouse. To which, I might add, via the asylum. It's not a country at ease with itself.

Yes it’s institutionalism vs consctructionist but there is a, probably unconscious ideological bias in the range of interpretations a very smart brain can make of it. They look at this and think there is no other way to think about it but it isn’t dissimilar to people thinking the bible is gospel EXCEPT that bit in Leviticus about you shall not wear wool and linen mixed, that bit is obviously some weird thing from 2000 years ago and shouldnt inform our rules. The justices are mostly trying hard to do the right thing but there is a bias. Roberts has been more balanced than expected (& very aware part of his role is to forge consensus), and fwiw he is definitely a good man, but another trump appointee will be a huge test for legal precedent.
The bigger problem though is all the genuine criminals in ICE and other govt departments who honestly would have been at home running concentration camps and I completely mean that literally.

The reason for my exasperation is that this was surely avoidable? I know this isn't really the day for awkward questions but I assume Supreme Court judges are allowed to retire? Had RBG done so during the Obama administration then presumably the Democrats would have appointed her successor? Did it not occur to them that Trump might win and that, if he did, RBG was in her 80s and, by the sound of things, already terminally ill. A difficult conversation to be sure but, given how much was resting on this appointment, did no-one think of it?

Frankly FLo, that's so sensible, I don't suppose the idea occurred to anyone.

Well, I'd have to brush up on my US history but I believe the thinking behind it is that it's the only faction of power that can't be fired of the three branches as it's meant to act as a constant. They're meant to be impartial and just be concerned with the law, the appointment is for life so long as they demonstrate good behaviour (hence why they're audited for it in detail). But this was back when 'for life' meant about 15 years not 35, it's the same type of thinking that gets you a geriatric crown prince 🤷

I think the previous two appointments were picked by their predecessor and that sort of smoothed out their exit to a point but I'm not sure on the mechanics of that or why RBG didn't do it herself. I think it may just be one of those things that there's more honour in dying in the saddle, even the greatest of heroes have their flaws and all that.

She probably thought she had ten years in her, or that trump being elected was simply impossible, unfortunately. When they do retire they certainly time it for an aligned presidency! They don’t get to pick successors but often have links to them, partly because it’s a small world. Many of the top lawyers who would be potential candidates have been Supreme Court clerks. They all go through the same vetting and the extent of the scrutiny will depend on the Senate’s willingness to attack I guess, plus media. Trump will probably look for another 50 year old who can serve for 40 years

If RBG really did believe that then it was unbelievably wrong headed and arrogant and, legend or not, someone should have had a word.

I know I'm being harsh but, if this is as serious as they're now saying - especially for women - then the Democrats have royally fucked up.

"Their politics are toxic, the politicians a geriatric farce, the police aren't trusted, academia and the commentariat are blindly woke to idiocy, antifa v MAGA rages on, all the while failing to curb the ability of the criminally insane to acquire firearms at will and use them indiscriminately. Climate change: as XMIL once said, America will drive to the poorhouse."

Seems like the UK is headed in a similar direction with the Cummings types determined to stir up culture wars and trample all over democratic institutions.

It's an odd thing, they're not supposed to act politically until they decide to retire. A mandatory retirement age or maximum number of years for the term makes more sense, as in other countries. I think RGB only had a very narrow moment where she could step down as Obama only had two years with both the Senate and House being in democratic hands, optimism about him and that continuing was huge at the time so I can imagine she thought she'd have more time. She also had cancer then too which will most definitely have impacted her decision, rightly or wrongly. I doubt she expected to live as long as she has.

I don't think things are as dire as some are painting it out. As time says those that qualify are a very small crowd who are long entrenched in the system. They'll be more of the agree to disagree crowd than of the extreme fringes.

Catherine, I think there's parallels as the two party system (along with other things like FPTP and the electoral college in the US that make little sense in modern times) doesn't deal well now that politics doesn't strictly categorise in left and right wing anymore. Coalition models are better able to temper the extremes even when they come to power as they're never a majority whereas in two party models and institutions vocal minorities can overthrow the establishment with a frightening ease despite not being representative. Not that coalition models are perfect as they overwhelmingly cater to the moderate middle, but they do seem better adapted to change.

Yes good point, so she would presumably have needed to stand down before the 2010 mid terms? But she would still have been 77 then and already had cancer. I am not, by the way, of the view that old or sick people shouldn't take public office. But I do believe you have a duty to consider your mortality - hell I'm starting to and I'm 64 - and to try and pre-empt too much mess.

Anyway I'm starting to feel bad now. I've also been looking at photos and thinking how old age really suited her style-wise.

I think it's fair enough to criticise the system that put her in a difficult spot it's another to hold someone personally responsible for that by dying at an inopportune time. She clearly loved being a Justice and felt her place there was of great importance so I can definitely see her reluctance to give up something that gave her so much.

She's also of a generation that were late starters, of sorts, she started her education when she already was a mother with young children and had to justify taking away a place of a man in law school as one of the first women to attend and wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms into the profession. I can definitely understand that to her it was a lot more than filling a seat and that drive to prove herself above others never really left her ambitions.

I can sympathise with that but I still think that, if you're in public office, you have a duty to think about your legacy. My criticism isn't about dying at a bad time, it's about not factoring in that likelihood when you're age 70+ and in poor health. I don't think you can blame that purely on the system. Of course there are others I could point a finger at too, although at least Biden has picked a younger co-runner so maybe he gets it.

It feels like part of this larger trend of denying your age and mortality and I view it in the same way that I regard 50 year old mumsnetters who insist they're not middle aged. It drives me nuts.

I can’t imagine being past 70 and signing up for the crazy job of president. How can they possibly have the energy? Mental acuity I believe (not trump obviously) but not at that crazy 7 days a week all hours pace.

But I do want to go kayaking around the Whitsundays for mine and my husbands 50th, I hope flo is ok with that

Of course! It's just that I don't believe kayaking prevents middle age And nor will wearing nice clothes halt my own express journey into old age.

Clearly you need to get out and kayak more, Flo, it's how I constantly get mistaken for a foetus

No, she definitely made a gamble at some point and it didn't end in her favour and that's on her. Perhaps it was ego, but expecting people to be without flaws is equally foolish. I'm just not a fan of the narrative that seems to be happening elsewhere that this is her legacy now, undoing any good previously by not stepping aside at the right moment because it disadvantages their preferred party. It shows a lack of faith in the law to stand on its own which undermines democracy (and the latter feels precarious enough right now in many places). Those same people would be anointing her a saint had she held on for a little longer into a Biden presidency.

I do think there's a social economic aspect to it, my parents' generation are all at retirement age now and none of them have stopped working. Yes, left their 'job jobs' but continued to work in some capacity either as overpriced consultants, board members, writing, or volunteers, easily putting in a 4 or 5 day workweek. It seems very doable within a certain class, especially for those whose job was their identity and/or social circle. Ones with titled jobs seem especially reluctant to give it up. It's what makes the whole retirement age conversation so difficult as the ones creating policy belong to that class.

I'll probably get labelled a trump bot too but I'm no fan of Kamala Harris, I can't take a woman seriously who during the primaries claimed to believe all Biden's accusers and now happily sits by his side as VP nominee. I think Biden has already said that he'd only be a one term president, although there's rumours that KH only agreed to be his running mate if he tapped out after two years.

But back to lighter things, Cos has a midseason sale on, subscribers only ATM but here's a link, hopefully it'll work otherwise probably accessible tomorrow.

COS sale access

I know I'm being harsh. But I have an old school attitude to public service - I think the key is in the word 'service' - and I'm angry that women's rights might now be in jeopardy. And she certainly wouldn't be the first hero to be flawed - they kept Shakespeare in business.
I agree with you by the way about Kamala Harris but that's for another day.

Anyway in all the brouhaha I forgot - the reason I came to post yesterday was because I'd been in some real city centre shops, including a Cos! It was weird not being able to try on, especially as I wasn't local so didn't have an option to return. I came away with a hoody to wear with tailored cigarette trousers, and which I'd gone in for but was also tempted by several other things - I'll post links later.

Also as the afternoon wore on, groups of young women started gathering for a night out and I can report that dressing up is still very much a thing, including ridiculously spindly heels, which I found strangely cheering and life affirming, albeit in a kind of last days of Rome way.