🐌 Fantastic Skincare: Vanities Are The New Shelf Porn

[botemp]

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For those who are taking a peek and wondering what this all about, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients (rather than the latest new shiny product and all its empty promises) for our particular skin needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Newcomers are always welcome but please note the following:

Questions and asking for help on this thread is encouraged, however, we can’t give you a specific routine to follow and hope it works out for the best. There are no overnight miracles in skincare whether it be in the form of products or techniques. It’s about perseverance, understanding your skin, assessing its needs and responding to that in a diligent manner.

These threads were created to help those who want to learn for themselves. We’re a group of interested and invested skincare nuts happy to offer tea and sympathy and dole out advice. Everyone’s journey with skincare is different, what is universal and binds us is that through actually learning about the different active ingredients it helps us get to know our skin and help us adapt as it will change many times throughout our lives - with seasons, hormonal changes, ageing, genetics etc. It's in everyone's best interests to get to know their skin and to keep reviewing those changes with the confidence that comes from the gathered knowledge here. We really encourage you to spend the time reading through previous threads and linked info sheets that the many contributors have taken the trouble to share.

By no means are we experts, we're only a bunch of amateurs that can only respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly.

I am very slowly working on consolidating the gathered information from previous threads into easier to read formats but it’s slow going. I would suggest reading thread 1 and at the very least the following info sheets (provided they apply to you):

Where to Start

Basics of an Actives Routine

Skin Types vs. Skin Conditions Info Sheet

Anti-Ageing Info sheet

Adult Acne Info Sheet

Understanding Which Sunscreen(s) to Buy

Do I Really Need to Wear Sunscreen Every Single Day of the Year?

A Damaged Skin Barrier - Now What?

So You Want To Buy A Retinoid - A Guide

MAY 2020: We're in lockdown and it's doing weird things to our faces

cgm chat, I also half use the methods, not particularly strict but try to avoid anything damaging. I bought a lo poo at the weekend, tried washing with conditioner a while ago and it did not work for me. Have just tried it out and plopped it which I had gotten out the habit of doing. Am fully expecting a scraggly lions mane but at least I'll give myself a laugh

@VillageFete if she had dry skin then the Cerave hydrating cleanser should be fine . But as @botemp mentioned avene also do good cleansers too.

I'm on the fence with Cerave hydrating cleanser, I call it a gentle cleanser but it's not always suitable for sensitive skin. When my skin is feeling more sensitive I definitely feel some stinging. There's been some more pronounced reaction to it by some on here (Pupsie was one I have think?) so for the truly sensitive I always tend to stick with tried and true Avene and LRP.

Ah it looks like nutraplus is Calmurid without lactic acid. I think they discontinued them all for unknown reasons, but urea is the way to go then. Try the 5% and if that's not enough you can always try a higher percentage like the urea body cream.

Yeah, I used that Cerave hydrating cleanser twice and both times it stung like crazy straight away.

I've lost the last 3 hours to YT and hair.

pupsie any conclusions?

Well, I don't want to get shouted at by Bo .

1. think I'm more 2b than 2a
2. I'm resisting the urge to think I need to have inches and inches chopped due to damage (see 5) below)
3. I'm wondering if it's ever 'okay' to colour your hair if you're trying to be vaguely curly girl (and if it's not, what happens when your medium brown hair has more than a smattering of grey? Two-tone is not a good look, either curly or straight (for me)
4. I've had DH spraying a few strands of my hair with water and DS2 videoing it and I'm still not sure how porous it is. Which perhaps means it's medium. With a few strands some fine mist stayed on the hair, but the hair also got wet relatively quickly...
5. I'm wondering how damaged my hair is from colour and blow drying. Semi-permanent on roots every 5-6 weeks, taken through to ends about twice a year. Blow dried with a barrel brush on medium setting every other day for years. Minimal straightener use as I prefer it with body vs super flat. Always use good quality products and avoid sulphates etc and use heat protectant so hoping the frizzy/dry combo is more just my hair type/being menopausal but am I kidding myself?
6. wondering what kind of cut I need to have. Heartened by ppl upthead saying all one length with long layers. Have had it butchered soooo many times by ppl who just don't get it
7. I'm up for trying it but I won't follow it to the letter but will spend some time trying to figure out what works best for me

You did ask mrobama (that's not a sentence I ever imagined writing!).

CGM CHAT

Gah, am I being SHOUTY again? Sorry🙍 at the risk of being shouty, ahem, my rather unpopular opinions on the CGM in relation to your thoughts...

1. I clocked you as a 2b too but I have no expertise in curl patterns, so who knows. I think it's a weird popularity contest anyhow. There's a whole cult around 3b as the 'ideal' curly hair and it gets pretty acrimonious towards the ends of the sprectrum because of it. There's a lot of weird cult behaviour around CGM in general, see also 2,

2. another weird cult thing, if your ends are awful and noticeably thinner then it makes sense to cut to the healthy part (regardless of whether you're curly haired or not, any decent hairdresser will insist on it) but this whole notion of needing the 'big chop' or your hair all of a sudden being amazing after one is rather problematic. Ditto the pedestal on which curly cuts are placed above all others. I think a lot of the curly cuts look very 80s perm 🙊

3. yes absolutely fine, all it means is you need to give it some extra care now and then. Have a YouTube search for 'why I don't follow the CGM' to put your mind at ease.

4. all the porosity talk is mostly nonsense, it's all junk science, especially the DIY tests. By science/professional hair body standards, if you have pretty much virgin hair don't heat treat it, it's considered low porosity, virgin with heat treating/bit of dye (highlights/semi) you'll be low-medium, medium if you colour and heat treat, high porosity if you bleach heavily, have damaged hair, heat damage, etc.

5. does it break easily, do you have uneven length due to breakage, does your hair dry really quickly, split ends, etc. If not, it's probably not that bad, it'll just be the curl pattern that's effected by all the heat treatment. Hormones definitely influence curl pattern so that may be a contributing factor.

6. longer seems to work better but there are some funky styles but I really think they need to suit people. It's more about technique, cutting in rather than blunt cuts, as I understand it (and how I trimmed my own hair recently).

7. very sensible

As promised (I can't be arsed to link and you've already been on YouTube too long anyhow but in case you want to spend more):

India Batson- probably the biggest wavy hair personality in terms of numbers. She's a bit of a product junkie so it's useful to see a specific product in use (she does get sponsored a lot, so grains of salt necessary). Has good techniques if you're chasing big voluminous hair and are willing to accept a bit of frizz.

The others are smaller

Louisa Louis (with a lovely French accent) tries and demonstrates a lot of different techniques. Pretty much saves me from attempting the ones that look like far too much effort 🤣

Swavy Wavy Courtney, she's very methodical, tries out entire brand lines. Does a lot of 'journey' videos of things I wish I knew before starting, ten mistakes, blah blah but it's very specific to wavy hair and how the CGM can somewhat sabotage that so it's very useful in steering you clear from the pitfalls.

Real life+curly girl, very ingredients based.

Wavy Curly Ali, I think she's Instagram mostly but then posts them to YT. She has a lot of little finessing techniques and processes that are quite different that can be game changers, helpful with unique product combinations as well.

Manes by Mel, not wavy but helpful as she cuts though most of the CGM bull. Somewhat scientific but it's watered down for easier understanding, she's a hair stylist with a good knowledge base. Channel is a bit of everything.

I think all of the above colour their hair, and I don't think any are do or die CGM, real life+curly girl possibly, I can't recall, I don't watch her that much.

This blog post from Curly Cailín is about the approach to hair health is also really good read about what does and doesn't matter and simplify it into something manageable.

It's fine Bo. I know you and you know me .

Re 5) I once knew a midwife who was poker straight pre-kids and then very very curly after pregnancy. No, it doesn't break easily. I don't have uneven lengths or split ends. It's strong hair. It takes colour well, and back in the 80s it took to a perm rather too well. My hairdresser (who has similar hair but not so dense) always says it's in good condition apart from this dodgy strip at the back, but that could be partly due to the Elasticizer.

Is it true that because I've been drying it straight for so long it will have effected the curl pattern hence me thinking it's a 2a? I guess so. From what I have seen this afternoon many are able to progress to more waves/curls as they go along which makes sense. (I get that the classification isn't that helpful, but I guess for a newbie it's just quite a good starting point so long as it's not taken too seriously).

I've come across Swavy Wavy Courtney and Real Life+Curly Girl this afternoon so it's good to see you mention them. Also Curly Cailtlin whom I really like.

As I said earlier, it almost feels easier and less time consuming to just blow dry it every couple of days but if there's ever a time to try being more au naturel it's now (although I wish I'd started 6 weeks ago: having said that, it hasn't seen a hairdryer since lockdown started).

I had ridiculously straight (think Asian) hair in childhood, all hair accessories would just slide out in seconds. Once my hormones set in I went curly overnight after a weird haircut. I was convinced I looked like a poodle

My best guess is that straighteners do more damage than blow-dryers to curl pattern as it's such high heat from all sides and they also tend to blow dry and straighten but no one is doing research on this (no money to be made or scientific need). Most of the curl pattern loss seems to revolve around ex straighteners addict anyhow.

Grey hairs also tend to be coarser and kinkier so that probably changes curl pattern too, I don't see much talk of grey hair and texture in CGM circles though. I believe they're more porous too but I may be misremembering. Maybe not more porous but less well equipped to keep moisture in?

Yes definitely agree re greys. BTW the reason I'm temporarily considering 2A vs 2B and porosity etc is just to try to find a person or two with similar hair Vs trying to get tips and tricks from someone with a different hair type. It's sometimes harder to see what type of hair someone has when curly. For example I was watching a video earlier of a woman who said she had dense hair and I just couldn't see it but she also posted a video or haircut in process and what it looks like with no styling/products and it was very layered. Short layers too: freaked me out!

Last word on hair tonight: I've often thought the heat of the hairdryer so close to my neck won't be doing the skin there any good. Another reason to at least explore going au naturel.

Thanks guys, will take a look at all what was suggested.

What can I do with this REN moisturiser? It’s awful. I hate it. How on earth is it suitable for sensitive skin?!! The fragrance is ridiculously overpowering. It’s just so unenjoyable on the face.
Worth using as a hand cream? Foot cream?

Village can you mix it with a plain, unscented body moisturiser each time you use it to dilute the scent and general nastiness?

I'd just stick it on Depop or something like that if it's been used. Or donate it to a refuge if unused, although I'd probably feel really bad about the smell and buy something else to donate alongside it to make up for it 🙈

Pupsie, very topical video just popped up:

You can sell opened skincare?! Who TF buys it?!

It's big business on Depop, makeup too. Skincare in airless pumps don't seem too much of a risk but the makeup is a bit

Thanks for the video Bo.

Hey @botemps Just read your sunscreens document and just wanted to say "thank you, it's fab!"

Also been using cerave smoothing cream on my KP on upper arms - really reduced the redness straight away and bumps are getting so much better. Only been a few days. Never been so smooth! Very exciting!

Can I check whether the salicylic acid causes sun sensitivity? There's conflicting info online. My conclusion from reading up was that it doesn't but thought I'd check with the expert!!

Thank you so much for all your advice btw. Just dipping my toe in the water to all of this and the information out there is contradictory and confusing. This thread and your documents have been so helpful.

You're welcome both.

Mini, first of all not an expert, just an enthusiast at best WRT BHA all (chemical) exfoliants are sun sensitising to an extent because the layer of dead skin you remove with an exfoliant actually offers some sun protection to the skin underneath just by physically blocking it. Remove it and the fresh new skin underneath is suddenly susceptible to the sun. The effect is minor but it's still there as BHA is an oil soluble exfoliator so tends to have less to do with that surface layer of the skin but it does still have some exfoliating effect there. Just not as strong as an effect as AHAs have to that layer of dead skin.

Perhaps the term sun sensitivity is confusing here, it's not like a medication that causes sun sensitivity (ie. Making skin less resilient from the inside for more complex reasons to do with drug interaction and UV light) but you are making it more susceptible to sun damage through the process of exfoliation.

CGM CHAT Actually Pupsie, I thought I was getting a wee bit of shouting from Bo as I've just bought a few products - particularly the Giovanni leave in (although I believe it does contain protein (?) but maybe not as much as the Blueberry Bliss. I didn't go into such a deep analysis but then I think this is one of your areas of expertise Bo - analysing ingredients I mean. My cousin has the Blueberry Bliss. She really likes it . She also has thin hair but much more curly).

Wondering whether it is better for my hair to squish the conditioner and not really rinse out (and then won't apply leave-in) or rinse out conditioner properly and then apply leave-in. I'll have to try both methods.

I also cancelled the thermal cap from Cailin and ordered one from Naturalistic. Makes more sense as was paying for delivery of the other products so may as well include the cap.

Good luck with it all Pupsie!

CGM CHAT I wasn't meaning to shout at anyone, sorry if anyone thinks they are being shouted at 🙍

I must admit I'm a bit confused by the Giovanni leave ins as the INCIs are different on different sites. I'm not sure if I saw the correct one with all the aloe. My general impression has been that Giovanni is so affordable because they're quite bare bones, which I do appreciate as I think that's more useful when you're layering multiple products but it makes me question them on their own.

I did a deep delve into protein last night attached are some of my notes but I feel like I have a much better grasp of it now and which one does which and where to look for it in what product. I can now easily ignore the CGM tenant of low porosity hair shouldn't use protein I may try a protein treatment at some point but I'm going to start with low doses of it first. Definitely getting the curls blueberry bliss.

I think the only thing to look out for with squishing the conditioner 'in' is that it's one you can leave on, it's supposed to say on the bottle, I think.

@Pupsiecola - Wait, the tips are open? . Don't mean to pry, but are you in the UK? I agree with your sentiment, and mostly I am frugal, reduce, re use, recycle, but by the same token, would rather spend slightly a lot more on products that work than cluttering up what limited space we have with what would normally be my preference, lovely organic products picked by fairies at dawn

Botemps - The Neostrata SPF 50 is quite good. Love that it is sheer, but just the right amount of coverage.

CGM Chat

Bo I was literally thinking yesterday "how does Bo record all her findings on skincare/haircare, I bet she has a huge spreadsheet". Well now I know. I can see that a hand written form is much more useful, and in bullet journal too. Never quite got those before but do now.

Sophie on the very rare occasion when I've accidentally not rinsed out all my conditioner (on holiday with a pissy shower for example) my hair has felt slimy and horrible so personally I'll not be trying that in purpose.

MrObama yes, soith-east UK. They've been open for a couple of weeks. I tried 2 but the queues were awful so took my boss up on the offer of using the industrial wheelie bins at work (it was mostly cardboard). We have a unit in a shared, services block. He has said "bins are empty" to the 3 of us, and that the office was empty too. So I took my raggedy crazy big hair off to use that one and he turned up mid cardboard dumping. So we had a 10 minute chat in the car park. Socially distanced of course but still 😬

I tried bullet journaling proper but I never found it useful as a day to day thing. It's useful for notes and when you doodle in between it helps digest it all, I think, and it makes it easy to reference back to and find something.

I don't think it's some magic teaching method though, I have a somewhat photographic and strong associative memory and the those combined make accessing a lot of stored randomness quite efficient.

Do they not collect paper and cardboard from your house in the UK? We have a special bin for it (one of many) and they pick it up every 3 weeks, I think, weekly for businesses.

Yes, bullet journalling always seems so time consuming and counter productive to me. Can totally see how what you do works!

Yes they do collect cardboards, plastics, batteries, glass and food waste. But since lockdown and all being home we've struggled with our one bin (especially as food waste/peelings etc not being collected so has to go in black bin). Plus we've had a lot of deliveries in big boxes (eg those organising boxes for my bathroom cabinets, a lot of whey protein powder all come in big boxes).