Les Parisiennes de Mamansnet: Orangutans in Paris make for poor gondoliers

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The sunshine might be fading from our passion fruit punch but we're looking forward to what autumn will bring.

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Whoops ...and you can start crowdfunding

That was a typo, not me losing the plot. (Hopefully)

Thank you Floisme, XingMing and Bo for the help and advice re the trousers. I was planning to do it myself but re-thinking that now: might be better to go to a tailor to avoid mistakes!

flo I use almond oil and sunscreen too. I used to use tinted moisturiser from boots, but the No7 woman told me it slides off after a couple of hours . I do use their BB cream, but only where I need it (dark circles, a few veins by my nose), so generally don't use much on my skin.

bo I agree that's not easily managed by many. I think most people's lifestyles are not conducive to good quality diet or being active, sadly. There was a very interesting Huffington Post article about obesity, in particular, that was saying that willpower and diets fail because of overriding social change, eg long working hours, long commutes, cheap easy processed food etc.

Angry Chef did a good piece on it as well, perhaps the HP piece was connected to the behavioural economist Michele Belot's work too?

angry-chef.com/blog/because-it-s-fucking-shit-in-hull

Very interesting article,bo, I say that as someone who did Sociology at university and looked at long term/short term values in different socio-economic groups. My first proper job was teaching in a "sink estate" in Leeds, so I recognise a lot of that. Not sure what the answer is. The HP article was implying that we are trying to get individuals to change rather than change the environment that has made them like that, although it was more US based. I'll see if I can find a link.

That looks like an interesting article and I know some of the places he mentions reasonably well. I'll have a proper read later.

Returning to the shallows, I've abandoned lipstick after one day and am now wondering if it's the sunscreen. I recently switched to a cheaper brand, which was risky cos I have sensitive skin and I thought I'd got away with it but maybe not. It seemed ok on holiday but the light was different there.

This group seems to be remarkably like-minded! Good article, though I don't know any of the places personally. Several villages locally are known to social workers, teachers and medical people as having a similar low-income, low achievement, poor mental/physical health profile with obesity and life expectancy rates well worse than the national averages. Inability to delay gratification is definitely an issue, and a brake on personal achievement.

Your sunscreen being part of the problem Flo sounds about right to me. I get on well with the Bioré Watery Essence, but Clarins and most posh European screens make my eyes run. The Bioré is alcohol based but I don't find it drying. The handbag spray versions from Bioderma and LRPosay are good for top-ups when out in the sun.

This is the article: highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-you-know-about-obesity-is-wrong/ slightly depressing, in that nowhere has reversed it's obesity levels, iirc, read it awhile ago.

flo not shallow at all, surely it is very Parisienne to be discussing skincare, cosmetics and the deeper issues of society?We should move onto Philosophy next (no, the Sezane and Toast bumpf don't count!).

Very interesting posts Xing, Flo and quirky. I remember reading sociologist Pierre Bourdieu's "Distinction" an analysis of class bound taste norms during my anthropology masters. IIRC those who feel excluded from certain consumer products on basis of class/ income ( be they food, music, fashion, cultural experiences) will learn to dislike and distrust those products. They may associate them with snobbery, feeling judged and rejected etc. They will value the more communal pleasures of a takeaway pizza and a few beers shared in front of the TV rather than an individual istic dour healthy meal. For an up to date French take on this read Edouard Louis's The End of Eddy Bellegueulle ( En Finir avec Eddy Bellegueulle). It's short and extremely readable.

whataboutbob that's very interesting, good quality food, for instance, is regularly associated with being "posh". There have been several threads in the past about certain foodstuffs being rejected for food banks, despite being cheap, nutritious etc. I think we're coming full circle to Grayson Perry's A matter of taste. The long-term/short-term thinking is, in part, due to traditional "working classes" receiving weekly wages, so you only had to survive a week, whereas a lot of "middle class" professionals receiving monthly salaries, so having to plan across a month.

botemp Thanks for the link to The Angry Chef blog. I hadn’t come across it before. It’s a good article and touches on a wide variety of factors at play. It does feel very much like in tandem with a widening in the wealth gap we’re seeing a widening in the health gap. Articles like these help to explain why well-intentioned project like Jamie’s Dinners don’t really work in real world situations. The virtue signalling of “healthy living” is definitely something that I’m guilty of. You’re right that prescribing a less is more mantra isn’t the right approach either and again ignores reality for most people. We’ve discussed this concept on here before in relation to decrying Fast Fashion and the inherent privilege that often exists in those that do (including me).

What about Bob I’ve ordered the Kindle version of the book.

I love all the show review and collages. Thanks for putting them together.

I really enjoyed the FT links and similarly sniggered at the “$2,500 well spent” line. It might be true, but I can’t imagine uttering that line with a straight face. I had a look at a few of the interviews in the series and while some are more relatable than others, about 70% of them seem to include an eye-wateringly expensive chair. I went down a bit of an FT rabbit hole and enjoyed this interview with Clare Waight Keller; it made me more appreciative of her designs. I have to say I really enjoyed the SS19 show.

Presenting this week’s déjà vu from the ST Style section – I give you a certain pair of kick ‘em in the balls boots.

classics - for Floisme

Nice trousers Sophie I need to do similar with my loose linen trousers.

I didn’t buy it, but did try on this long Dries dress for the hell of it. I was in a rush so have jeans and chunky boots on underneath which may not be helping the silhouette and have no need of it, but still liked it!

Hope you enjoy the book Elle. Quirky it's true, food is extremely prone to enduring associations which can limit individuals' scope for dietary change.
One thing I'll always love about France is the passion for ideas and the willingness to engage with theories. I'm in France at the mo and my French uncle teases me that I idealise the place, but for me being in touch albeit at a distance with the culture adds a most satisfying dimension to Iife. Sounds pretentious I know ( and not about clothes!).

quirky, when you mention working classes being paid by the week, are you talking in the present?

I don't know the ultimate answer either, realistically there probably isn't one absolute one. I'm always inclined to explore the macro view. Within Dutch architectural and (urban) planning education sociology is very much interwoven, and there's a lot of emphasis that we understand that the environments we create influence the users immensely, so pursuing architecture solely on aesthetics is a terrible (but often made) choice when all it serves is the architect's ego.

I agree, it's very Parissienne to discuss all sorts of subjects. Perhaps we should rebrand ourselves as a very pretentious Salon

So, onto philosophy, "I shop, therefore I am"

Thanks for the HP piece, btw, quirky. It was a long but very interesting read, if a bit disheartening.

bob, I've always wondered what anthropologists make of MN. Surely it must get you itching to document it all... Admittedly, as much as this place is a distraction/mindless chatter kind of place for me, it does enrich my professional life to have such insight into so many layers of society.

Bo I'm not actually a professional anthropologist ( I'm a dietitian). However I'd be surprised if there aren't any anthropologists out there who are using Mumsnet as research material. I agree, at least on a personal level it is enriching to have access to so.many perspectives and experiences.

@Bo, if our small business is anything to judge by, we only pay very casual labour weekly; everyone else gets paid monthly, even regular casuals, simply because that's the way the system works best as it consolidates holidays etc.

Forgive my gawking but I'd naively assumed that weekly wages were something of the very, very, distant past. I've taken it for granted that it was one of the things the European social democrat movement had gotten rid of alongside it being paid out in pubs on a Friday night in Western Europe many decades ago.

Bo, I did mean being paid weekly in the past, so that is partly where the culture of short term values comes from. Probably, with very little job security too. I can't honestly remember where the studies came from, as I was studying Sociology in the late 80s/early 90s.

Love the idea of a Salon, or maybe a café on the Rive Gauche with gauloises and very strong coffee. Oh, and red lipstick.

I'm here with the Gauloises, espresso and red lipstick.

Weekly pay is very much a thing of now Bo with the gig economy that tech brings. Uber, Deliveroo and their ilk pay weekly as per 'jobs done', they don't have employees, they have 'contractors', essentially self-employees who take jobs through the apps and are paid piecemeal.

I am astounded Bo that you thought the Eurpopean social democrat movement had put an end to something that never stopped.

I am very UMC and I know this.

Are you not British Bo?

Lipstick (I had to wipe it all off the other day - couldn't stand the feel of it - sorry.) I could bring chocolate though instead of Gauloises.

Thank you for the link on Hadley Freeman's classics, Elle. And I love the theory that Hadley and I are connected, bo but alas no. It was slightly spooky though, even the Peter Falk love. We would disagree on bras but that's probably the 20-odd year age gap talking. I always enjoy her writing and, although I can understand why she wanted to move on from fashion, I'm always pleased when she comes back.

No, Not British at all Hairy. It's been a definite thing of the past here (in NL) for a long time. I'm not sure when it got stopped, I assume it's not illegal but probably incentivised to pay out monthly, even when not working the full month.

The flex-worker economy (as we refer to it here) is definitely a thing here too and comes with a different structure of payment (although most still get paid/billed monthly, if that, they're often left chasing their payments well after) which is more of a new situation rather than a continuation of one. I was referring to weekly payments within a steady job as that was how I read quirky's comment, about an entire class (rather than the type of employment) still being paid out in weekly wages with all the stigma attached.

Hadley's ace, Flo, she's one of the rare writers whom I don't really mind the subject matter, I'll read it anyway. Nor do I have to agree with it all either. Bit disappointed you're not her Clark Kent, with all the press lurking, I wouldn't object to Hadley's presence or easy lifting one bit.

Ah, too much good reading here, and in my sleep deprived state I forget what I went into the next room for, let alone what I meant to comment on.

The one point on which I disagree with the Angry Chef article is that I’m not sure everyone actually knows deep down that the WHO and the NHS issue more solid recommendations than Gwyneth Paltrow or me gran. A serious issue of our times is the mistrust of experts coupled with an inability to weigh evidence. I’ve just learnt that a friend who comes from an Upper East Side type background doesn’t give dairy to her child and has completely cut it out of her own diet because she heard that it causes colds. Same friend continues to sit on the fence WRT vaccinations. And she went to a Russel Group uni, so even education does not fully inoculate! I am not one to advocate a blind following of authorities, but then a spot of critical thinking is all too sorely lacking.

Floisme there was a time when all my skin could tolerate (so I thought) was jojoba oil. I have since discovered a natural skincare line via a Mnetter’s recommendation that I get on really well with - maybe worth a try for you? It’s called MooGoo, they have a UK website too. Not as sophisticated as the skincare threads here I’m sure, but I’ve found their products gentle, effective and really good value. I use the Ant-Ageing SPF face cream in daytime and the vitamin C serum with the MSM cream for sensitive skin in the night (when I’m not battling small DCs’ sleep issues, that is).

Now to drag the tone down, I’ve come to the sad conclusion that all the Arket purchases are going back. Except a pair of children’s socks. I wanted to love you, Arket!

The greatest disappointment is the attached jumper. The stock photo and the description made it appear like it has a lovely boatneck curve, resting at the collarbone, for which I would have been willing to overlook the buttons down the sleeves. What the angle of the stock photo didn’t show too well was the extra fabric sewn under both ends of the neck opening that makes it look like a curved rectangle instead (brain freeze at the correct geometric term, who can help me out?)

The cut also makes me look like a rugby player on top. The fabric is lovely so I can recommend it to anyone slight of shoulder and keen on rectangular necklines.

The ice crepe boatneck tee had the opposite problem, perfect cut but the material (cotton-modal blend I think) feels a bit rough. I just wouldn’t enjoy wearing it.

Why is it so hard to find good basics? All I want is a soft cotton tee, in scoop or ballet neck and boat neck designs, in light and dark colours so I can wear them under jumpers. I found some amazing pima cotton vests in John Lewis for the baby, and that material would be perfect. In fact I may just write to John Lewis to suggest they manufacture vests for me in the same. Why should the baby get all the good stuff? Harrumph. (

I found some nice black pure cotton t-shirts in Sainsburys over the summer...£4 each. More of a crew neck than a scoop neck, but not such a high crew neck that I can't wear them even with 32H bust. Basic basic, but but worth a try maybe.

Also found some organic cotton t-shirts with v-necks in New Look which weren't expensive and again, feel nice to wear.

Have seen Jigsaw recommended for scoop double front tops in the past. Probably considerably less basic in price!

Completely anecdotal but my mother was highly intelligent, but was somewhat of an anti vaxxer before it was a thing, had some strange ideas about food, was mistrustful of 'chemicals' in cleaning and self care products, etc. I don't think it was a disbelief in authority/experts, she was simply of the opinion that she knew better because she had studied it (with self confirming bias obviously) and consulted other experts and soon enough the authorities bodies would catch up with her opinion and in some cases they did. Granted this was the 80s and 90s when acid rain was a thing, as was the aftermath of Chernobyl and there was a lot of uncertainty in that regard. I do however, think there was a certain elitist level of I know better than you element to it rather than the mistrust of experts from a conspiracy POV that's more mainstream now.

Back to basics, higher price point but Filippa K does do some good simple t-shirts with a variation of necklines in good fabrics.