Please define 'frumpy'.....

[LaContessaDiPlump]

This is a TAAT, in case you were wondering! I saw the 'Phase 8 - frumpy or not?' thread and realised that I like quite a lot of stuff in there

I'm 33, 5'5 and a size 18 (hoping to drop a bit soon though). Big mum tum and bum, arms and legs on the larger side. I do have curves though.

Please steer me right Mumsnetters!

Also - sorry, I'm on a roll - the other good thing about going to a stylist is that when she makes you try on, for example, a green corduroy mini skirt that you'd have walked straight past normally, and you realise that

1. your legs are actually way better than you remember
2. green really suits you
3. you can wear any number of plain black tops with it
4. you are 33

those facts click in your brain, and suddenly instead of being 'woman who can only wear jeans' you're now 'woman who can also wear any skirt of this length, as well as jeans'. Instant confidence boost.

Then she makes you try on a patterned maxi skirt and you look terrible. But that's fine, because now you never need try on another maxi skirt and beat yourself up because you look like a pregnant peasant woman from Soviet Russia. Ever again.

This is how people seem stylish - by categorically ruling out shapes and styles that make them look awful, and never going near them. You just need someone with more confidence (friend, stylist, etc) to do the culling. If you don't have the confidence to believe that it's the clothes that are wrong, not you, you keep going back to them like a toxic relationship, and blaming yourself every time. It's taken 20 years for me to break up properly with those mini kilts M&S wheel out every autumn. But it's not me and my big arse and my chunky thighs, it's them, the unflattering little bastards.

Frumpy, to me, is an outfit that makes you look older and more conservative than you are.

That is very wise, CalonDu. I realised long ago that maxi skirts/dresses are not my friends!

I do need to steer myself away from thinking that a t-shirt is 'fancy' because it has a pattern on it though. I think I'm so worried about looking stupid that I tend towards very plain and dowdy.

My weight does come into it; my arse is too big, my hips are too big, my arms are too big. Apparently my lower legs are nice (my [female!] french teacher told me this aged 15, which is why I assume it is a true statement) and I do have boobs, but that's it really. What would suit those features? I'm not keen on anything short or revealing as it would make me feel uncomfortable - I grew up in the Middle East and tend to assume that I will draw negative attention if it's too obvious that I'm female.

As for other features.... my face is ok - tendency to look tired and lined though. The hair and its frizziness/messiness doesn't help. My mother made me keep it cut very short - couple of inches-type length - so it looked 'tidy' at school. That ended when I was 16 and rebelled. Unfortunately I still feel like I'm horrendously untidy if I let it out of its cage.... so haircuts are out as something to feel good about.

Maybe knee-length dresses are the way forward, although DH did say (I think he was trying to be helpful as I was whinging) that I had some nice dresses like that which 'worked the mumsy look quite well'. When I reacted, he said 'But you ARE a mum! It wasn't meant to be an insult!!'

ARGH.

Sorry, haven't read whole thread yet only the first few posts so this may have been dealt with already but just have to say that I've rarely seen a more openly ageist and really quite offensive post on S and B than flanjabelle's on ' elderly women'.

I don't think it would be acceptable to dismiss a whole group like this in any other context .

I've no idea when she thinks women start being elderly and put comfort before everything else but can only say frumpiness, if defined as lack of style and interest in presenting yourself well, is certainly not confined to any one age group.

Surprised she still has such old- fashioned attitudes if she regards herself as modern.

my next door neighbour must be well on in her seventies. She is the right weight for her height, hair always immaculate, and even when doing the gardening in those dreaded trousers and jumper so hated on here she looks good. She's really pleasant too!

so it isn't age, is it?

and don't think you look good just because you've bought top-fashion items to make you visible. You can still look like something out of Eastenders.

in the interests of research I've had a look at the Daily Mail. There's a couple of shots from the Perth Fashion show - the models are wearing beige lace, beige stripes and black sack raincoats with too-long trousers. Now that's dressing in the dark. Bloody awful.

There is no definitive idea of frumpy; it clearly varies from person to person.

For me, if I'm feeling run down, or haven't had enough sun and fresh air, have eaten badly and my skin is pale, pasty and zitty, my clothes fitting a bit tightly, I lose confidence in myself and dress to hide myself. I sling on the scruffy jeans, dull t shirt, clumpy boots and drab coat. I have four kids between 5 and 10 years and so I have spent many years slobbing around in dull, scruffy clothes and doing the school run in clothes to make me invisible. I'm rubbish at making myself look polished in the morning and usually during the winter months I pull on a big woolly hat to hide myself even more.

When I feel well, I generally feel good about myself when I look in the mirror (healthy glowing skin, bright eyes etc) and so tend to choose my outfit more carefully. I've generally been quite a daring dresser throughout my life and enjoyed attention (punk, mod sort of style), so I ignore the rules and love experimenting with clothing. However, as I get older (I'm 37 now) I am a little saggier and my hair is thinner and greyer so I take much more care about what colours suit me. I have spent a while working out what my season is (to be honest I am still a bit unsure - I think I'm on the cusp) but I know that bright and high contrast outfits make me look washed out now, and cooler, dusky, low contrast colours accentuate my blue eyes and make me skin look good. That said, I also like to wear bizarre clashing combos - I think I can get away with it - and I enjoy playing dressing up at home to put pieces together that you would never imagine work.

I always put comfort high on my list of priorities - I have sensory processing disorder - and even if I love a stylish piece of clothing, if it feels uncomfy I can't wear it. I only recently discovered that a lot of my 'frumpy' clothes were actually a size too big for me. I bought a pair of shorts that fitted really beautifully and realised they were smaller than most of my jeans so when I got home I looked at myself in my jeans and could see how baggy they were on my hips and bum. I'd just not noticed as I was so used to them.

I don't agree that you need to spend a fortune to get good clothes that look good on you. I have a mixture of stuff that I've found at jumble sales, charity shops and more expensive high street brands. I don't own any expensive jewellery, but I do wear costume jewellery. I love nail polish. I always feel good when my hair style is good (it's a bit lank and boring right now) and this usually encourages me to play around with my clothing.

Anyway, more me 'frumpy' just means not caring about your appearance, although does it really matter, actually?

'To me' not 'more me'.

I don't agree that you need to spend a fortune to get good clothes that look good on you ...

You're perfectly right - but the OP currently believes that she's not worth spending money on, so shock treatment is needed.

She hasn't built up any confidence in "that amazing little cashmere jacket I found in Oxfam for £10 ..." And if she continues to wander listlessly around her High Street only willing to invest £15 in the certain knowledge that whatever she buys will look rubbish or be laughed at once she gets home things will never change.

If on the other hand she pops out to Hermes a more expensive purveyor of beautiful things and buys a scarf in colours she loves I defy her DM, DS, DH, DMirror to tell her it looks silly on her or that she's not worth it.

"so haircuts are out as something to feel good about."

No, no, no. Don't be so negative. It sounds like a haircut would be an excellent starting point.

I suggest you go into a few salons and ask to speak to a hairdresser and ask for some ideas, then book an appointment with the one who sounds like they understand what your requirements are.

I have done this when DD wanted her hair colouring.

To me frumpy is when some dresses in a way that doesn't highlight their good points. I often can't be bothered to make an effort myself!

bunbaker IME, I sit down and remove my (densely packed, frizzy) hair from its bonds. They pull it all out over my shoulders and say "Hmm, you do have a lot of hair, don't you?" They then say "You know, I think that we should try layers". I then don my best 'never heard THAT before!' face and feign delight. They do layers. It looks nice until I wash it. Repeat.

Are there any haircuts that actually suit this hair type? Hell, are there any haircuts that are even discernible within this hair type?

Are men ever called frumpy? Is there a male equivalent to the state of frumpiness?

Or is it one of those words, like bossy that only seems to apply to women, when they don't behave/dress/look like we are supposed to?

La contessa - I have hair like that :) I've had plenty of expensive haircuts in my time and they look exactly the same as when I whip off an inch or two by myself in the bathroom mirror.

I find neglect (sorry, leaving it long) and Moroccan oil pretty good. Layers are no good if they're too short, you'll just end up with that inverted ziggurat look...
You can also try oiling it - bit of coconut oil worked in well to wet warm hair, wrap in towel, leave for a while, shampoo out then condition.

And laugh in the face of straighteners....

I like the idea of using coconut oil. I assume I should use the refined stuff or I'll end up smelling coconutty

Yes, straighteners are no damn good at all! Our hair does not lend itself to straightness - I once got my hair blow-dried in a salon in Wales and it looked awful, like the 80s had returned. The salon manager came and looked at me and said "Well, you do have very thick hair" in tones of reproach. I slunk out of there with a hat on FGS.

Have you ever looked into permanent hair straightening? It tames the unruliest of hair.

I completely agree with Gruach - you need to allow yourself to feel like you are worth being glamorous, 'put-together', stylish, whatever you want to call it.

You need to feel comfortable with beautiful things, then slowly you will feel more comfortable looking for beauty in yourself.

I've done it once or twice, squoosh - it was ok for a few months but wore off with successive washes. Also, the number of people who said 'Why have you done THAT? It was much better before!' put me off

For the hair, how about going completely radical and getting a proper short cut?

I really want gruach to come shopping with me. I love that approach - one gorgeous thing can absolutely lift a safe outfit of black top/jeans, and make you feel special. Can you maybe paint your nails a glossy ladybird red? Just to start? For one day, and take it off when it chips?

The thing is, LaContessa - and I know this is easier said than done - but you've got to stop letting other people tell you what you look like. Your DH, the hairdresser, your mother, random people who make thoughtless comments - it reads as if you're almost relieved that they're confirming your self-doubt, when in fact you should be giving them the MN face for not appreciating your natural beauty.

When you go for a new haircut, smile confidently and say to the hairdresser, 'listen, I don't have loads of time for styling - what do you recommend for my hair? And I don't want layers, thanks. I want a style that'll look the same in a week's time.' I feel your frizzy pain: I've got mad curly hair, but it's not lovely and thick like yours, it's weedy and fine. I have to shout, 'No! No straighteners!' as soon as the stylist tries to plug them in. It took me three stylists in my local salon to find one who didn't try to make me look like Cher.

The MN definition of frumpy often seems to be "whatever item the poster doesn't like".

Some say it's all beige and plain, others say it's bright colours and prints.

Well that makes sense. Ask someone what stylish means to them and you'll get a host of contrasting replies. Personal taste.

Have to say OP - I feel distinctly when you describe your hair. (That's envy not sick.) It sounds magnificent.

I do hope you will now drench it in precious oils and perfumes, make it as big as possible and watch the world fall back in awe.

OP, I have similar hair to yours. It took me until I was in my mid thirties to embrace the curl! Prior to that I used to just stick it on a ponytail still do occasionally when I'm feeling a bit crap
But, have you thought of long layers? Make sure you have at least 3 layers, or you risk the mushroom look!! I've got my hair like thos now. It's really easy to look after - wash + condition really well. Comb with a wide tooth comb when wet, and then use hair oil. Maybe a bit of other product. Fluff it up a but, and leave to dry naturally.

Are we talking Princess Merida style hair?

I was the original inspiration for the Merida hair, squoosh.

idsisatwat, my hair is only shoulder length so I don't think long layers are really an option. Maybe when I've grown it long enough.... although I do have the fear that I will then resemble a red setter.

A broader question: how can you not care what people think of you? Are there really people out there who don't care? Is it not just bravado and/or shorthand for 'ignore the haters and listen to the people who make mild yet logical suggestions for improvement'?