SD not wanting to stay - co-sleeping arrangements

[farme]

Just looking for some advice.....

My SD (8) is refusing to stay over at ours and my DH is heartbroken. She had phases of this off & on as she says she misses her mom and likes to be with her.

I think one of the factors is that her BM lets her co-sleep with her if she wants. It isn't necessarily every night but she seems quite flexible about it to the point I think it's making SD view us as being too strict in comparison.

SD has her own room at her BMs but from what I gather she sleeps in it some nights for the full night, sometimes she falls asleep in her own bed but wanders through to her mums bed, and other nights she just decides she wants to sleep in her mums bed!!

Surely this isn't healthy for a just turned 8 year old? I think it's really affecting her development and impacting her bond with DH & I as she seems overly close with her BM. Would it be wrong of DH to bring this up with her as she is effectively babying an 8 yr old child and stopping her from becoming independent

DHs exW has never moved on and met someone new so that's why she's happy to co-sleep.

@TableFlowerss nope I’m not giving the Op a hard time for being the OW. I think the situation is clearly genuinely distressing the child and all the adults need to take a step back and figure this out. In no world that I can imagine could I ever forsee myself/ my exh forcing our children into a car seat sobbing and driving off. It would never happen. And that has nothing to do with the fact that he cheated, we would be in pieces if we put our children through that.

Now if there are wider concerns than just the co-sleeping and it is severely impacting the child’s personal/ social development, then that is a different issue. And the school / professionals around the child in school can step in and support changes around contact etc.

Something is going on here. And the parents need to be working together. This child effectively is resistant (or has become more so) since the father has had a word about co-sleeping. He’s handled this badly. So the blunt judgement? Tbh? Is towards him. Sounds like a piece of work.

@TimeforWinterClothes
The child does not spend any significant amount of time with the dad
The child has never experienced living together with her parents. It may just be that the dad is little more to her than the person with whom she is being compelled to spend time and the OP is just the other person who lives in the same house.

It is unlikely that either the OP or her partner has any real understanding of the the types of relationships that the child has with other people as they seemed to to have formed a close enough bond to understand her reasons and reticence for not wanting to come to the dad's house.

"Dad " to this child may simply be a term that has no meaningful definition in her day to day life. It may for her be synonymous with regular schedule variations and to not have anymore significance thnn a mildly enjoyable variation- something that you occasionally enjoy but at other times have no real need.

This is not a marginalized view of dad, but just perhaps an accurate view of her experience with the role of a dad in her young life.

If her view of a parent is informed by the experience of her mother as a parent, she has not had that extensive total life involvement with the OP's partner. She probably knows from his and her mom's verbal assertion that he is her father, but in no way has she experienced him having the total involvement in her life that a real parent has. Consequently, she may not feel the need for regular and fixed involvement in his life. That is not a criticism of him, but just a possible and not unreasonable response to the particular circumstances of their relationship.

@SnowWhitesSM

My dss (8) mum fosters an unhealthy dependent attachment on herself with dss. It's different then having a normal close relationship with your dc.

My dss won't be left in a room alone. He asks dh to stand near the bathroom when he goes to the loo. His dm definitely creates a dependency on herself with him that prevents him feeling safe and secure. He isn't able to go to sleepovers at friends, won't join clubs in case he can't see either parent at any time. It's actually sad to see. Dh works with him on this and he does have a bedtime and sleeps in his own bed at ours. His dm doesn't like this but frankly she doesn't get to control what goes on in our house. She manipulates dss with the created dependency. Again it's different than a normal attachment and has created a lot of worries for dss and stress. He isn't a confident, happy child but he's getting a lot better.

This is exactly what I'd meant by them being overly close in an unhealthy way.....it's like her mum encourages the dependence. She does everything for her, gives into her far too easily, almost scared to not to exactly what SDD wants for fear of upsetting her.

SDD has friends, is social etc and enjoys school. It's as if the mums whole world revolves around her DD though and this is what I was meaning when I said she hasn't moved on. It's as if she's all she's got in her life and she's desperately clinging on to "her baby"

OP, is it just possible that the mom does not view you as someone who needs to know anything about her personal life and simply chooses not to share that information with you?

Obviously if the child is properly socialized and relates well at school, then the focus once again shifts to what happens in your household.

What is this child's concept of your partner as her father as a parent? Does she simply connect the title of "dad" with him but not the actual role of dad with him? There is a significant distinction between the 2 experiences.

Someone upthread asked a question about lockdown which went unanswered, but I thought it a very good thing to consider.

What was the situation during lockdowns? Did she still go between the two houses as normal? Obviously routine was disrupted because of school closures etc, but were contact hours with her Dad the same as usual?

Has she had to isolate yet? Is she maybe aware of isolation rules and worried she may end up needing to spend an extended period away from her mum?

Does she ever spend extended periods at her Dad's home, or only ever the couple of nights at a time?

But you said classy @SpaceshiptoMars?

Sorry I missed that point. Interestingly, this did start during lockdown, however, DH and I moved in together during lockdown and it was a new house for us all so we assumed this was the issue.

However, that was a year ago now and SDD was really happy for a while since then and had settled before it flared up again.

There were a few months at the very beginning of lockdown when DH had her for the day only and she stayed with her mum every night. Again I did wonder if this was a factor but she has been happy since then gone back to being anxious about coming overnight.

Generally now she isn't as concerned about covid. She knows about friends isolation etc but she seems to assume that if she had to isolate it would be either with her mum or between the 2 houses. I'm not saying she would necessarily travel between the 2 or that she'd go back to her mums if she tested positive at ours but as this isn't a concern for her just now it doesn't seem wise to put the idea in her head. We'd cross that bridge if/when it came to it

@farme

Firstly, just because her mum doesn't have a partner it doesn't mean she hasn't moved on. I split up with my ex months ago and I very much prefer not having a partner at the moment. I have moved on fine!

In her case it has been 6 years!!! She's only introduce me one partner she was dating but he never stayed over when she had her DD

A mother choosing not to have men stay over when her child is in the house is setting healthy boundaries between her dating life and her children.

What is wrong with the mum's entire life revolving around her child?! Absolutely nothing wrong with your entire life being about your kids if that's your vocation. It also appears the child is happy everywhere else but in your home. Only now you are saying the mum let's the kid do what she wants just to get more people onside. I know it's patronising to say, but it is also true : you have no idea about being a parent until you actually become one and have the child with you most of the time. If you're genuinely concerned about the child, let her dad get on with it and you leave them alone. And as for children only wanting to go when there is something fun, some children want to know exactly what is happening in advance as it makes them more comfortable. It isn't just about doing fun things. This poor child is being treated like she has to be inserted into your home, rather than you realising that she is the most important one to consider here and her dad should not have moved in at all until he had established his relationship with her once he had left the home. All these people going around setting up new families here there and everywhere and expecting it to be marvellous do my head right in.

What is wrong with the mum's entire life revolving around her child?!

People are being so facetious about this. It's obvious what she means. She means, in her opinion, she comes across as codependent with her child and that that need to hold on to her being a baby is holding her development back. This is something that is often discussed on other sections on the forum, even up to the children being adults, and is widely recognised as unhealthy. OP may or may not be off the mark with that, but why are people acting like it is strange and unthinkable to even discuss the notion of this phenom in parents? It is not unheard of.

I agree that co-dependency is not healthy and that it isn't desirable for a parent's life to revolve completely around their child as it puts too much pressure on that child. Children certainly need to develop relationships and interests beyond their primary caregiver.

However, allowing a child to co-sleep when they have a bedroom of their own if they want it is not in itself evidence of a co-dependent relationship.

@AlexaShutUp

I agree that co-dependency is not healthy and that it isn't desirable for a parent's life to revolve completely around their child as it puts too much pressure on that child. Children certainly need to develop relationships and interests beyond their primary caregiver.

However, allowing a child to co-sleep when they have a bedroom of their own if they want it is not in itself evidence of a co-dependent relationship.

No, it isn't evidence of it in isolation, but people are acting like the notion of codependency itself is unthinkable.

Of course co-dependency is a thing. Being "overly close" to your dc is not a thing though.

Closeness and co-dependency are not synonymous.

@AlexaShutUp

Of course co-dependency is a thing. Being "overly close" to your dc is not a thing though.

Closeness and co-dependency are not synonymous.

It quite clearly is what is meant, though.

[quote sassbott]**@TableFlowerss* nope I’m not giving the Op a hard time for being the OW. I think the situation is clearly genuinely distressing the child and all the adults need to take a step back and figure this out. In no world that I can imagine could I ever forsee myself/ my exh forcing our children into a car seat sobbing and driving off. It would never* happen. And that has nothing to do with the fact that he cheated, we would be in pieces if we put our children through that.

Now if there are wider concerns than just the co-sleeping and it is severely impacting the child’s personal/ social development, then that is a different issue. And the school / professionals around the child in school can step in and support changes around contact etc.

Something is going on here. And the parents need to be working together. This child effectively is resistant (or has become more so) since the father has had a word about co-sleeping. He’s handled this badly. So the blunt judgement? Tbh? Is towards him. Sounds like a piece of work.[/quote]
You’re right that the adults all need to take a step back, including the mum.

I think there are many single parents, whereby the mother is the main carer and there are plenty of useless, freckles dads.

Having said that, I think some women do use the child as a pawn. Not saying this is what’s happening here as we don’t know enough about it, but as you rightly say, they ^all^ need to figure out how to move forward because as you say, no one wants to leave a child crying they’re eyes out.

Having said that, I don’t believe all mothers have their child’s best interests at heart regarding seizing their dad. They might think he’s a prick but that’s not a reason to try to prevent the relationship or stop a child going.

Also SS or the courts would take a dim view on any parents ‘slagging’ off the other parent to put the child off.

The whole concept of healthy attachment is when a child can feel settled independently. 8 year old is still young, but people saying they have such a ‘special bond’ etc I would say it’s more likely attachment issues.

Everything should be done to help the child have a relationship with both parents.

@aSofaNearYou

What is wrong with the mum's entire life revolving around her child?!

People are being so facetious about this. It's obvious what she means. She means, in her opinion, she comes across as codependent with her child and that that need to hold on to her being a baby is holding her development back. This is something that is often discussed on other sections on the forum, even up to the children being adults, and is widely recognised as unhealthy. OP may or may not be off the mark with that, but why are people acting like it is strange and unthinkable to even discuss the notion of this phenom in parents? It is not unheard of.

This this and this.

My now 14 year old DD was exactly the same at 8 when going to her Dads. My ex believed it was me, making her co dependent, anxious etc.

She has just got her diagnosis for autism; a lot of the behavior he put down to me is autism related, but he refused to be part of the diagnostic procedure and believed it was just an excuse. He was rigid in his demands, his way or no way. She now hasn't been to his house for over 3 years.

Please don't make the same mistake

@farme

It's is court ordered.

Her mum does encourage it and has taken her out in tears before, strapped her into the car seat etc so she has forced it as much as possible. Anytime SD hasn't stayed it's because SD has been so upset that DH has said she could stay with her mum. This has only happened 5 times, all other times he has forced her to go.

He feels torn as at 8, it seems wrong to physically force her into his car but what else can he do? Her mum says she just needs to "make her available and encourage her to go"

Wow. Just wow.

12 pages.
12 pages about the mother......
When are the pages about which efforts is the father planning to put starting?
When are we starting to talk about his parenting skills? How does he calm his DD down? Which games do they play together? Does he cook her any special meal? Any special jokes going on between them? Reading? Bath time? Any routine he had with her since she was a baby? How does he speak to his child? How much of her character he knows?

Or is that irrelevant OP?

Because till he does not look in the mirror and do this relevant to him, this is a waste of time.

Have you forgotten who these arrangements are supposed to be for? If the child feels that having two homes is more of a problem to them than seeing less of one parent, that should be their choice.

Would you honestly feel this if the one home she chose was her dad's though? And she would to see less of her mum as a result. I honestly don't think most people would.

@farme

This SD has a strong attachment to her mum because she's been her primary carer her whole life and she doesn't remember ever having lived with her dad. This is exactly the same for my SD. It's not a problem to be stamped out, it's a real thing which just needs to be managed. There are ways to help and be sensitive to it without agreeing that SD no longer needs to stay over, or she can sleep in her dad's bed, or she doesn't have to come to his when she doesn't want to.

This is a really good way to think of it. Thank you.

As much as i feel ive been getting a hard time on this thread, it's useful to see others points of view. I initially didn't explain the situation very well but it's really helped me to think of it from SD point of view

I agree that you have been getting a hard time here.

That is my quote you have used, and I honestly think it's the truth. My SD is so similar to what you have described, I think it's very natural for children in their positions where their mums are with them 90% of the time and they just don't have quite the same bond with their dads. It is different for my SS as he was 5 when his parents split, so he was already very tight with his dad. SD doesn't have that same level of trust and security in her dad, not through anyone's fault, but it's just very hard to build up that strong parent-child relationship from nothing, if you have never lived together within the child's living memory. In order to do it, you really need both parents to help the children through.

I think it will just be a matter of helping her to look forward to her time at yours, planning some special things to do (good suggestions from others like watching a series of films so she knows you're doing the next one next time), being understanding if she gets upset but reassuring her she'll see mummy tomorrow (or whenever). With my SD, it helped us to remind her that she's away from her mum at school and she doesn't worry there, she will see her mum the very next day etc.

But mainly it's just something they will grow out of. She will not always be so upset to leave her mum for the night.

In the meantime though, I don't think the answer is letting her stop coming or just come when she likes, as some have suggested. Your SD is too little to make this choice, and she deserves to have proper relationships with both of her parents. I know that if my DP agreed that SD didn't have to come for her usual days, she would hardly ever come at all, because when it got to the time she had to leave her mum, she just wouldn't be able to face it.

When you don't see your child/parent every day the relationship is mainly built during those times together, and it is so important to keep them up otherwise it can easily start to deteriorate and become a big barrier for a young child.

@LittleMySister
You are quite right in that the child deserves to have a proper relationship with both parents. I would wonder how the child develops a perception of what it means to have a father when she had never experienced living together with that person in a family unit and has spent very little actual time with them.

When this child is told that this is your father, what do those words actually translate to her as an actual experience? Does he do all or most of the things with her that her mother does as a parent?

Probably not I would think . So then what does the term "father" mean for this child or any child in a similar situation. She is a bit to young to understand the biology of conception, and the dad has not spent enough substantive time with her to fit within her definition of a parent in the same sense that her mother is her parent.

Someone saying to you " this is your father'" of a man with whom you have no real sense of a familial connection and not a particularly strong bond is not telling you anything that in and if itself would inspire an immediate or strong sense of security or comfort.

A child can enjoy spending a fun filled Fay with strangers, and she can even seem to like them or have a positive reaction to them. However, that does not mean that she wants to stay overnight in their home or spend any considerable amount of time with them without her parent being present.

The OP's partner may think that he has the feelings of a father but until this child experiences him as her father in any meaningful way there will never be a parent/child relationship developed.

Sadly, biology made him a father, but it is only considerable time, effort, and hard work that will make him a parent.

The OP may be a wonderful person, but the child seemingly has a perfectly adequate mother/parent, and what she needs now is a perfectly adequate father/parent. That is not a we or us job ,that is a position that the father alone must attain before he has the stature to bring his child into his we/us relationship with the OP.

The OP may be well intentioned, but she, at this point , is trying to insert herself into a play before her character has a role or part to play.
Simply being present on the stage does not mean that there is any substantive role for you to play in this act.

OP should step back and let the father work proactively to improve and develop his relationship with his daughter if he wishes to become a father in any meaningful way.

My DH has been involved in his daughters life since birth. Yes, she was a baby when she split from his mum but he says his DD 2 nights/3days per week.

After the initial leaving of her mums house she is mostly happy (occasionally says she misses her mum, gets a cuddle if a chat and is fine). DH does bath time, reads to her, does homework, goes swimming, goes to the park etc.

It's only escalated recently that SDD is getting so upset that she hasn't wanted to come. Once here she is happy and they do have a good relationship

Me & DH have probably been over thinking her not wanting to come on a few occasions and making it a bigger deal than it is. She just finds the initial 10-15 mins distressing. The fact she missed her overnight contact this week brought it to a head and SDDs reason was "she misses sleeping with her mum in her mums bed"

Don't think anyone can jump to the conclusion she doesn't have a relationship or a bond with her dad. Or that she doesn't understand the concept of what a father is

Tatler, I think you have taken my point to an astronomical level there!

I think it is unfair and actually really offensive to say 'Sadly, biology made him a father, but it is only considerable time, effort, and hard work that will make him a parent', as if this man just hasn't bothered and can't be considered his child's parent. His daughter does have a sense of familial connection with him and it's absolutely not comparable to having a fun day out with strangers?

I actually do think most separated fathers do the same for their children when they have them as mothers do. My DP certainly does, and from OP's posts it sounds like hers does too. She has described lots of what he does with his daughter to make her feel happier about coming to him.

Living under the same roof doesn't automatically make you a parent either, but the weaker bond doesn't notice as much because the child doesn't need to leave their primary carer in order to be with their other parent. But when children are sleepy or sick, you still usually find they gravitate to the person who looks after them for the majority of the time.

My DP does everything he can. He speaks to his children every day, never misses a weekend with them, takes them out for fun days and holidays, plays at home with them, looks after them when they're ill, reads them stories, cuddles them, feeds them, baths them...everything a parent can do. But it doesn't change the fact that him and their mum split when SD was only 1 and then her mum moved away with them, meaning DP only gets EOW. So naturally SD's bond with her mum is just stronger, because she is there looking after her every day.

It's not because my DP is a bad parent or not worthy of the status of parent, it's just the natural consequence for some children with separated parents, who struggle to be apart from their mum.

@LittleMysSister
In reality biology makes all of us mothers or fathers. It is action, involvement , proximity,etc that makes us parents. Children know the words father and mother, but they experience us as parents.

OP's statement of her husband's involvement has become more expansive as questions were raised. If her husband is doing all of those things that a parent would normally due and is spending as much time as possible with his child then he would hopefully have a better grasp of the reasoning behind her expresed desire to spend less time in his home.

If all of these issue self resolve after 10 or 15 minutes in the OP's home then there really isn't much of a problem. After 10 or 15 minutes, they are just another happy family.

I do think in just another happy family there would not be so much interest in the mother' s love life and not so much critical analysis of the mother's parenting style.

The OP says that the child is property socialized with her peers, seemingly well acclimated to school, manifestly happy in her mother's home, on the surface that only left the father's home to be the place where the child was experiencing anxiety

In any case, the OP's additional information suggests that there is no problem at all.