Applying to change a court order

[chippe]

Just looking for some advice if anyone has been through similar.

Should also say I'm in Scotland in case that makes a difference.

My DP separated from exW 8 years ago and have a 9 year old DS.

There is a court agreement in place regarding contact and DP has 2 overnights one week, 3 the next (so 5 of 14).

We're really keen to increase to 50/50 if possible but obviously this would need to go through court.

DPs point is that the existing arrangement was made when DS was only 1 (coming up for 2) and things have changed considerably since then.

However his ex says NO as there is an established routine that has been working well for DS and she doesn't see why it should change. She also claims to have asked him and he said he doesn't want any more overnights with his had as he likes it how it is.

Obviously there would a lot of stress and hassle going through the courts so just wondered what you think our chances would be?

I would leave it for now if dss is happy. Maybe revisit it in a couple of years and see how he feels then but at the end of the day access is supposed to benefit the child. Dss appears to have made his wishes clear and you really both need to respect that.

@deliciouschilli

Do you live near his school / friends?

We're about a 20-30 minute drive away. He is good friends with our neighbour but he's at a different school. He also has a lot of aunts, uncles & cousins on his DDs side which he lives loves spending time with when he's with us

*This is the First Wives Club jumping in and burning you to the ground. And, they’ll just get worse and worse until you admit “defeat” or their comments get deleted.(

Ffs so 'first wives' can't comment or we all get tarred with the same brush?

How is that any different from the 'bad step mum' trope.

My advice would be to ask the boys mum if you can trial an extra evening, for a couple of months to see how it goes. Explain you don't want to court order something which the boy will be unhappy with as that's a waster of everyone's time and energy.

This would be a good way to start. If the child wanted to stay more. He doesn't.

I'm still reading through all the replies.
Im really shocked at such a strong reaction to my dp wanting more time with his own DS.

Except you are leaving huge parts out there. That's your summing up changed to make your dp appear better.

He didn't want to, or at least not enough to do something about it, until you came along. And you admit he wouldn't have done well. When he sees his child shouldn't be dependent on him having a relationship with other people.

And the fact that the child doesn't want to. That's the most important part.

The child doesn't want to.

IMO the instant someone starts referring to “the first wives club” they lose all credibility. It just makes them sound bitter and really not very pleasant.

And let’s be honest here, only one poster mentioned that the child feels nothing for the OP and she was swiftly called on it.

OP at the end of the day while you’re personally in favour of this child spending more time at yours, and you’re prepared to be involved with his care (a lot of SM’s aren’t,) the reality is that your DH is using you as a means to gain more access when actually he’s not capable of parenting him himself.

If the DS wanted to spend more time with his dad then that would be fair enough, but being at yours more isn’t going to mean spending more time with his dad is it? It’s going to mean spending more time in a different house, and while you are totally prepared to be involved, he may not look at spending more time with his SM as opposed to his parents as something he wants.

And at the end of the day, most primary carers don’t gain that status on the basis there is someone there to help with the parenting. Even if they get together with someone else down the track, that is considered irrelevant to their position as primary carer.

Most primary carers don’t have a choice as to how often they parent their children, but your DP actively chose not to have him more than he does, which might have been fair enough when he was a baby, but he’s then used you as a justification for having him more. Not his wish to spend more time with him, not the fact that the court order hasn’t kept up with the changing age etc, but the fact he now has someone in his life to do the parenting for him when he’s not there.

And what kind of responsibility is that going to put on to you? I actually have no issue with step parents who want to play an active role in their SD’s lives, and I know that some people do. However, if your DS were to come and live with you on the basis that you will be doing much of the care, will you feel obliged to stay in the relationship should you ever want to leave, because you know that not staying will mean that your DH will again spend less time with his child?

These are all things to consider. It’s not just about the amount of contact changing,it’s about the whole dynamic changing

Why don’t you suggest another day and eventually night but leave the CMS as they are? One night isn’t going to save the mother any money except two meals at £5. She still has to keep the bedroom, etc etc

How much extra time would he spend with his dad? Not you, but his dad?

Im really shocked at such a strong reaction to my dp wanting more time with his own DS

Really? When you categorically said that your DPs circumstances have changed so he can now have his child more? Those circumstances including a relationship with you? So who is actually going to do the parenting? The child’s father or you? If you were mum and were expected to send your child off to be cared for by a partner whilst dad works/goes about his usual buisness, do you think you would consider that to be in your child’s best interests? Should a child be cared for by an unrelated adult when a parent would rather do it?

And 20-30 minutes away is a lot when doing school runs and facilitating friendships. What if he would prefer to spend time with his school friends rather than your neighbour? That is something more and more likely to happen as she gets older. How willing will you be to facilitate that?

Thanks everyone. As much as the responses weren't what I wanted to hear and a few were upsetting, it's useful to hear other views. If it's not going to be successful then there's no point in dragging it through the courts

Out of interest, what would be good reasons for increasing a contact via court order? I had assumed a child becoming more mature and being more comfortable spending longer away from their mum would have been one of the top reasons? (And it is the genuine reason in this case)

Im really shocked at such a strong reaction to my dp wanting more time with his own DS.

No people are not reacting to you DP wanting to spend more time with his DS, they are reacting to him wanting to use court orders to force the DS to do so against his wishes. As PPs have explained, the court process is often stressful and upsetting for all involved, not least the child who has no choice in the matter going to court. There are some circumstances in which that is the least worst option because the current situation is so damaging to the child. There's nothing here to suggest that's remotely the case. This is a child who is happily spending significant time with both parents and there are no apparent welfare concerns on either side. This is a long way from the kind of case that should be going anywhere near a court.

The truth is that the court can order time spent with a parent but it can't create relationships. Relationships are what's going to matter to the DS. Your DP already has a good deal of time with his DS, I'd be concentrating on using that time to build the best relationship possible with his DS because it's the quality of that relationship - not the exact quantity of time - that's going to matter to how close they are in the teenage years and beyond. The other really important relationship is the co-parenting relationship between your DP and the mother. They're going to have to navigate changes and challenges as the DS grows up and it's going to be better for everyone if they can discuss those and work together like adults. Dragging the mother through the courts over something like this will do precisely the opposite.

Out of interest, what would be good reasons for increasing a contact via court order? I had assumed a child becoming more mature and being more comfortable spending longer away from their mum would have been one of the top reasons?

Sorry cross-posted with your message. I think you need to distinguish between increasing contact and doing so via court order. Being responsive the the child's changing life and views is a good reason for adjusting the schedule as they mature (but that might also mean that they want more time in their primary base) but going to court over that suggests there's been a real failure of relationships somewhere along the line. IMHO for it to be worth getting the court involved the potential damage from the process has to be outweighed by the reasons for needing to use the court. E.g. if there were real welfare concers (child being neglected, parental drug abuse etc) or a genuinely hostile environment being created by the other parent that prevented contact taking place (e.g. parent falsely accusing the other of abuse and withholding contact).

Just wanting to adjust things to suit the child's changing needs shouldn't need the court to be involved.

Out of interest, what would be good reasons for increasing a contact via court order? I had assumed a child becoming more mature and being more comfortable spending longer away from their mum would have been one of the top reasons? (And it is the genuine reason in this case) The only reason I can think of would be the child’s wish to spend more time with their other parent.

Out of interest, what was it that meant this went to court in the first place? After all it’s always preferable that parents agree contact without the need for a court order, so the fact that there is a court order implies that there were already issues here WRT contact.

TBH, and I know this isn’t going to be what your DP wants to hear, but the fact you live a 30 minute drive away from his school and friends means it’s highly likely he will start to spend less and less time there as he gets older, in order that he do activities/see his friends and as he becomes more independent.

You're right, in most situations it would be much better to agree it with his mum without changing a Court order but she sticks to it rigidly and I doubt she'll be up for allowing him to have more time with us

@chippe CO’s are only worth the paper they are written on with younger children (where it is deemed that they cannot decide for themselves what contact should look like). Where parents cannot agree a judge rules in order to protect the child’s relationship with both parents.

The reality (as many have said), the ideal time to have visited this was once the child was a little more ‘independent’ and had started school.

At 9 / 10, they are very close to the age where the judge will give more weight to what a child articulates. I’ll also add, judges really expect parents to try and reach compromises. Court is (and should be) seen as an absolute last resort.

Under what circumstances would I think a court order should be revisited?

1. if the existing one is not being adhered to and there are repeated breaches showing that the RP is non supportive of the NRP relationship.
2. if there was a genuine welfare issue (so the child’s emotional/ physical needs are not being met). By the way this would likely need support from the child’s school.
3. it was an interim order to increase staged contact and it yet doesn’t meet the ‘standard’ criteria - which is EOW, plus 50% hols, plus midweek staying contact. In that circumstance it is a given that the NRP will have to return to court to increase contact if the RP resolutely disagrees.

But at your level of contact (not clear on hols), your existing order is working, being adhered to, the child is happy. What cause do you have to go for more if the child is resisting? And that’s what a court would ask you.

No court will care what is ‘fair/ right/ that your partners circumstances have now changed.’ Child is happy with existing arrangements, why would they be changed?

Out of interest, what was it that meant this went to court in the first place? After all it’s always preferable that parents agree contact without the need for a court order, so the fact that there is a court order implies that there were already issues here WRT

Tbh I don't know all the detail on the historic stuff.
I believe there was a Separation Agreement setting out the contact (same as it currently is) and both sides were sticking to it. However DPs solicitor told him that if his ex ever stopped contact in the future and there was no court order, it could take months to get one in place meaning he could go months without seeing his son.

He wanted to pre empt this so he never had the risk of missing out on a big chunk of his sons life while a court battle rumbled on. I believe his ex was reluctant to sign the court order on the grounds there was no issues with contact but finally agreed as DP refused to sign for divorce without one being in place

His only concern was how long it would take if she ever did stop contact. Her reluctance to sign one made him even more nervous that this was her longer term intention and once she had her divorce, the contact would stop

Out of interest, what would be good reasons for increasing a contact via court order? I had assumed a child becoming more mature and being more comfortable spending longer away from their mum would have been one of the top reasons? (And it is the genuine reason in this case)

Because the child wants to.

As I said before, 50:50 is often less successful as kids get older. Children often want one main base. Now making the child have 2 is unlikely to make the child happy wheb they have said no.

Its also interesting you think there's no point pursuing it, because the court won't change it.

But don't seem to that fussed about the child not wanting it.

The child doesn't want it, so who is benefitting from changing and what benefits are they getting?

This is the First Wives Club jumping in and burning you to the ground. And, they’ll just get worse and worse until you admit “defeat” or their comments get deleted.

I am not a first wife, I am a Step Mother with full custody of my dss, I think op and her dp sound awful and manipulative.

But don't seem to that fussed about the child not wanting it.

when I said it's not what he wants, he's not actually against it. He just shrugs and says it's fine as it is.
I'm sure if it changed he'd still be happy. Not as if we'd take him against his will

@chippe

Thanks everyone. As much as the responses weren't what I wanted to hear and a few were upsetting, it's useful to hear other views. If it's not going to be successful then there's no point in dragging it through the courts

Out of interest, what would be good reasons for increasing a contact via court order? I had assumed a child becoming more mature and being more comfortable spending longer away from their mum would have been one of the top reasons? (And it is the genuine reason in this case)

In my experience, courts respond well to instances where children are crying out for more time with NRP. This might be at their request or because Cafcass recommend (such as in instances of parental alienation).

Really however, both parents should be looking to keep this out of court. Mediation is the route to ratify small changes, if both parents agree.

Adding a night is a small change and one that mum may agree to, if you approach it really carefully as other users have said.

The court order lays out minimum contact. It will probably say that variations can be agreed between both parents from time to time. Mum might feel more confident allowing an extra night here and there to begin with, knowing that if it’s not working she can default back to CO. And leave the CMS. One night might not make any difference anyway, because it’s banded.

Keep yourself out of it, as far as possible. Your role is to support DP and be an open, friendly, bonus adult in SS’s life. If you become too entwined, it will drive you nuts and it can really test the loyalty binds of the child involved, which is so not good for them. Children say what they say to respective parents. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the ex is being manipulative. It also might mean she is. But the courts won’t really care, as long as she has made the child available for CO stipulated days, every week.

It’s not a cut and dry thing but the CO is likely to remain as-is with a possibility of small edits, made at mediation. Gingerbread is a good resource for your DP and can help him to better understand mum’s POV and find the language to put his point across.

In our situation, the ex can often be hostile. And so can my DH, to be fair. But we all have an agreement that we don’t discuss it with or in front of children. Not even to “ask their opinion”

So your partner has been a bit rubbish but now he has you to do the parenting he wants more contact?
If he gets 50/50 will he pay less CMS?
And if you don’t get what you want it’s because his mother is manipulative?

@Doyoumind

Put yourself in the mother's shoes. You haven't given much of the background, but she was left as primary carer for a baby while your DP rather conveniently decided it was best she took on the lion's share of responsibility for parenting the child. As a single mum myself, I can tell you it is not an easy life being the resident parent to small children. I'm sure DSS means everything to her. Now her ex has got a woman to help out and he wants to play happy families without actually considering what is best for DSS. Would you not be a little pissed off?

this ^

wait a few years and let the child take the lead.

I am not a fan of 50-50 it isnt fair on the kids being passed round from pillar to post in most cases (some yes it works). But really ask the kids, wouldnt they prefer 1 main home?

So, they had contact agreed via the separation agreement but he decided to drag her through the courts anyway?

It’s not exactly surprising that she’s resistant to things changing any more since it seems he gets what he wants through bullying.

I am all in favour of where possible there not being a set arrangement for contact. When I split from my eXH we agreed 50/50 and while that happened for the most part, it was essentially an unwritten agreement that if DS wanted to spend time with one or other of us for various reasons then we didn’t really question it, as neither of us took the piss.

But in many instances parents can’t reach those kinds of agreements so there has to be a specified time.

But given they agreed a schedule for contact when they split, and then he went to court anyway, it’s very easy to see why his ex isn’t exactly on board with the idea of forcing her child to do something just because his dad wants it.

It seems your DP is in the habit of getting what he wants, and his ex appears to be protecting her DS from becoming a victim of that.

It won’t let me quote you @Evesgarden, but I actually agree with you about this situation. I just thought that previous comment was awful, and actually cruel. How on Earth do you know that in this particular situation, the SS doesn’t like the op and is secretly glad to get away from her? Just because some stepmums on here feel that way about the step children? That’s not relevant to this situation! The fact is, the op sounds like a nice person, wanting to spend more time with her SS.

However, he sounds like he doesn’t want that, and his well-being is important here, as everyone else has already said better than me.

I also think it’s worrying and predictable that dad is now suddenly keen to have him more because he’s got op to do all the ‘wife work’ that comes along with it. I’d see this as a red flag op.

when I said it's not what he wants, he's not actually against it. He just shrugs and says it's fine as it is.
I'm sure if it changed he'd still be happy. Not as if we'd take him against his will

Op there's clearly something else at play for you.

If you thought dp had a chance of winning, you would both go through with this, even the son has said he is fine as is. You would infact, trying to be forcing him. You see now only considering not doing it because you think you and dp may not win.

If he is fine as it is now. That's means he doesn't want to change it. So he doesn't want it

So far you admitted do did want to increase seeing his child until he had you as back up. That he probably couldn't cope if you weren't there. Stated the child doesn't want to change. That you being in the picture should be a good enough reason to increase time with your dp. Oh and 'well yes a reduction in cms would be nice'.

Again, if the child says he is fine. When you and do discussed it and discussed the upsides.....who benefitted? And what were those benefits?

Children generally PE

Happy children generally prefer the status quo than a big unknown. While your partner would benefit from seeing his son 2 extra days (I'm putting my money on you enabling that), is he really acting in his son's interest ? It's very shady to float the idea past dss. He will love both parents and not want his dad to use him in his war against mum.

If you were going to change things, have you considered a new routine when he goes up to secondary ? That seems a more natural point to change things because he might be travelling to school alone and have different routines in general.

Also have you considered the fact that 50/50
is going to mean more contact with mum? If she is difficult, how will you force her to pay 50% of costs without hurting dss? If she is stubborn and refuses to pay 50%, you'll end up paying for everything.