Applying to change a court order

[chippe]

Just looking for some advice if anyone has been through similar.

Should also say I'm in Scotland in case that makes a difference.

My DP separated from exW 8 years ago and have a 9 year old DS.

There is a court agreement in place regarding contact and DP has 2 overnights one week, 3 the next (so 5 of 14).

We're really keen to increase to 50/50 if possible but obviously this would need to go through court.

DPs point is that the existing arrangement was made when DS was only 1 (coming up for 2) and things have changed considerably since then.

However his ex says NO as there is an established routine that has been working well for DS and she doesn't see why it should change. She also claims to have asked him and he said he doesn't want any more overnights with his had as he likes it how it is.

Obviously there would a lot of stress and hassle going through the courts so just wondered what you think our chances would be?

Ds wasn't much past 9 when he started to arrange what time he spent at his dad's himself, once he got to that stage the court order went out the window.

If he has said no to you away from his mum and he means no. I wouldn't talk about for another 6 months and, if he again says no, back off.

Op I want to say this as gently as possible.

I am not a step mum and don't want to berate you.

But I have found as my own ds and dd has got older (ds is 10 & dd 17) 50:50 suited them less and less.

I have not manipulated. I haven't tried to get them to stop going. But they wanted one solid base. Not living between 2 houses.

While you may think going along with dp is the right thing and the ex is manipulating their son. Their son is saying he doesn't want to stay more. No one should keeping floating the idea. Their ds can be made aware that of he wants to change and stay more, your dp will sort it. But accept he doesn't want to do that now.

That may change in the future. He may want to spend less time with his dad. He may want to spend more. But he is at at age where you should be listening to him, leaving the door open but leaving it there.

He doesn't need added pressure. You may not think its pressure but he will probably feel this conversation is him choosing one parent over the other. And if his mother is manipulating him, he will probably also feel the pressure there. Your dp putting pressure on him isn't fair and it will likely cause more issues going forward.

I also understand what you are saying that your dp couldn't do more before and can now you are around. But his time to see ds is for him to see him. Not have him extra time, most of which you do. And honestly (this is aimed at your dp not you) he absolutely could have gone for 50:50 earlier. Before meeting you. Single parents do full care AND work, all sorts of jobs.

The problem with changing ds visits based on you being there is what if you split up? Or you have more kids and it no longer works? Or as your kids get older, it no longer works. It happens, alot.

If you split will dp want to go back to what he is doing now? That's not fair on ds.

On the face of it what benefit is there to spending money going to court, to put something in place dss has said he doesn't want based on hoping you are happy doing this permently or in fact stay together.

The only benefit, does seem to be a reduction in cms and so dp can have 50:50 for the sake if it. I am not saying that's the whole reason why. But from the outside there's no benefit here.

And also, let's say your dp wins. What happens if ds refuses? Or does it for a bit but resents you and dp for it? It could cause much bigger problems.

Also dont over estimate how he feels about you. He might have a good time when he visits and be polite and happy with you - but that's all he is doing visiting and being polite. Then he gets to go home to his mum.

This is such a spiteful comment!

Wanting and being willing to spend more time with your child when you discover that he is now interesting and less of an inconvenience does not speak volumes about the love and caring that should have been their since day one.

A child is not a prop in the parent 's life to be moved around the stage to support the parent's role in the play. And to even consider asking for 50/50 as a way to reduce maintenance or support is despicable IMO.

If your partner chose not to be a part of the heavy lifting when it was not convenient for him, he should live the arrangement in place that has worked for the mom who did the heavy lifting and the son who is satisfied with the existing arrangement.

Children are not props or chess pieces to be moved around as though they were part of a play or part of a game. Your partner is still thinking about his convenience and benefit rather than the stability and best interest of his child. He should be careful, his son may become a more responsible adult before his father reaches that stage. A man who requires help and support to provide an adequate home for his child is functioning as a less than adequate adult. What happens if you should leave , would he then be unable to provide 50/50 care for his son? Until such time as he alone and with certainty can make this commitment, he should not consider changing that which has worked well for the past 9 years. His child is not a hobby to be picked up and dropped as the fortunes of dad's love life change.

@nevergoesaway

Also dont over estimate how he feels about you. He might have a good time when he visits and be polite and happy with you - but that's all he is doing visiting and being polite. Then he gets to go home to his mum.

This is such a spiteful comment!

It wasn't intended to be. There are many many posts on here from SM who are relived when their SC go back home, why is is it such a leap to think children also feel like this after a couple of nice days at their NRP house?

OP also hasn't said if she is trying for a baby, pregnant or has just had one. If she is going to be home more she will become the care giver to the boy, which is unfair and yes I bet she wouldn't mind the reduction in CM.

I would also like to know how long OP has actually been with her boyfriend/partner and why she feels she knows more about how the lad would feel than the lad himself. This isn't 'lets try a few sessions of kickboxing to see if you like it' - this is 'lets go to court and legally change access rights'. If the boy really doesn't like it and wants to go back home what are the implications of an unhappy boy wanting to go back home but not allowed and also would the mother legally be allowed the CM reinstated because legally he should be at his dads if he was allowed back home?

However I can't see any judge allowing this and rightly so.

Make him aware that you’d like extra time with him if he changes his mind but that you respect his opinion and then leave it there.

This is sensible advice.
If your dss is happy that's the most important thing not your dp's wish to see him more.

So he agreed this was best, for 9 years. Child is happy with current arrangement, but that's because his mum is manipulating him, which you're also trying to do, and the CSM being reduced is a factor. This isn't to spend more time with dad, as you'll be providing the care. Sorry- you're not coming across very well. He's said no, he's happy with the current arrangement, maybe stop trying to slowly manipulate him into changing his mind?

There is a court agreement in place regarding contact and DP has 2 overnights one week, 3 the next (so 5 of 14).;

Could he maybe ask to increase it so that he stays longer in the school holidays?

Bold fail.

I think asking for longer in the holidays is possibly the best idea as it means he can spent like a whole week at a time with his son if they both want.

@chippe

Also a bit more context - sorry for drip feeding!

When the original agreement was made DP was going between renting a flat and living with a family member. He was also single.

He now has me to help/support (I have a great relationship with dss) and we now own a home so he would be in a happy stable environment

I don't think they should take your availability to assist into account tbh. You could walk out tomorrow.

Ok let’s take the assumption that this is all about maintenance and manipulation out of the equation.

People here are saying that the boy clearly doesn’t know what he wants because he hasn’t tried it.

So do people (the OP and others here) really think that a child should be forced into an arrangement purely because he’s never experienced it and so must not know what he wants?

To a degree when parents split there is an element of children having to accept that they will be spending a certain amount of time with each parent, and sometimes that amount of time with one parent is less than they might want.

But that is vastly different from splitting and having a child spend a certain amount of time with each parent, and then nine years down the line deciding that the child should be spending more time elsewhere and what he says is irrelevant so he should just be made to do as he’s told because he doesn’t know any better?

Do we force adults into doing things they don’t want to do because we think we know better than them? Nope didn’t think so.

This child doesn’t want to spend more time with his dad. That should be the end of it. There may in fact come a time when he does want to spend more time with his dad, and again, that should be accepted. And conversely there may come a time when he doesn’t want to spend any time with his dad. And again, the dad will have to accept that, because the child is growing up, and he is capable, and should be allowed to make his own decisions in life as he gets older.

If your DP goes to court and Cafcas become involved it is the child’s wishes which will be taken into account. “He obviously doesn’t know whether he’ll like spending more time here because he hasn’t done it” ain’t going to sway the judge. Actually it might, but not in the direction he’s hoping.

And the fact that you say that your DP now has you to help him is fairly clear evidence that he’s only up for the fun bit of parenting, because he’s got his woman at home to do the shit parts. If you split then I don’t doubt he’ll be keen for the arrangement to return to the way it was before.

You’re coming across just fine. You’re just a person asking a question. (And, I think you have got your answer!)

This is the First Wives Club jumping in and burning you to the ground. And, they’ll just get worse and worse until you admit “defeat” or their comments get deleted.

This conversation has transitioned from “what would the court say about an edit to a court order” to “your SS doesn’t like you, your DP is lazy, this is all about money and I’ve assumed you’re definitely pregnant”

They are just warming up.

People forget that when you enter into this new world of step-parenting, it comes with challenges, rewards… and a whole new vocabulary! Until I met my DH, I’d never heard of “CMS”, “Court Orders”, “EOW”, “NRP” etc etc.
I didn’t grow up with it and I’d never encountered the world of separated families before. So, you ask questions and you Google things. You don’t want to be a passenger in your own life. You want to be involved! But they don’t take kindly to that attitude around here.

If court orders can be made, they can be unmade, right? Seems obvious enough and surely happens every day. But when you’ve been around the wheel a few times, like a lot of these women have (myself included) you understand that they can’t often be changed, unless there’s a very serious reason to reduce or increase either parent’s time. Status quo is very important to the courts.

There is no agenda to my advice. I’m second wife to two SC, one of them is the same age as your SS.
We do 30/70 and his ex tried to have CO reduced to 3-4 visits per year… she got nowhere and the CO remained exactly as is. We would like ours more too, of course! DH tried for full custody at divorce due to mother’s addiction. But court said it was in best interests of children to be mostly with mother whilst in nappies and it has remained.

We have talked a lot about attempting increases over the years. My DH works from home always on his own business, so childcare is straight forward for him. And I would support him in anything he wanted for his children. But we don’t think it’s good for the kids.

We moved house recently and every time we mentioned our “solicitor” my DSD would ask her dad about it. I think the poor little thing has PTSD surrounding that word.

The open door policy advice was sound advice. They morph as they hit secondary school, and then you might have him hanging around twice as much anyway.

I’ve blathered on for long enough. OP, you have your answer. Don’t keep engaging.

You're right tho in that DP maybe couldn't have managed on his own in the past. Is this not the type of change in circumstances a court would take into account?

Will the courts take into account that dad has a partner to pick up his parenting slack? Is that what you’re asking?

OP - you and your DP are too late and too early to change the child arrangements.

By too late - your DP should have gone back to Court when his child was around 5 so starting school to change the arrangement. I know separated parents, and this is when the renegotiations happen/happened between the parents.

By too early - when children get to secondary age, and it depends on their individual maturity so it can be 11 at the earliest or 16 at the latest, they can call the shots on which parent they spend time with when.

@PeeAche

You’re coming across just fine. You’re just a person asking a question. (And, I think you have got your answer!)

This is the First Wives Club jumping in and burning you to the ground. And, they’ll just get worse and worse until you admit “defeat” or their comments get deleted.

This conversation has transitioned from “what would the court say about an edit to a court order” to “your SS doesn’t like you, your DP is lazy, this is all about money and I’ve assumed you’re definitely pregnant”

They are just warming up.

People forget that when you enter into this new world of step-parenting, it comes with challenges, rewards… and a whole new vocabulary! Until I met my DH, I’d never heard of “CMS”, “Court Orders”, “EOW”, “NRP” etc etc.
I didn’t grow up with it and I’d never encountered the world of separated families before. So, you ask questions and you Google things. You don’t want to be a passenger in your own life. You want to be involved! But they don’t take kindly to that attitude around here.

If court orders can be made, they can be unmade, right? Seems obvious enough and surely happens every day. But when you’ve been around the wheel a few times, like a lot of these women have (myself included) you understand that they can’t often be changed, unless there’s a very serious reason to reduce or increase either parent’s time. Status quo is very important to the courts.

There is no agenda to my advice. I’m second wife to two SC, one of them is the same age as your SS.
We do 30/70 and his ex tried to have CO reduced to 3-4 visits per year… she got nowhere and the CO remained exactly as is. We would like ours more too, of course! DH tried for full custody at divorce due to mother’s addiction. But court said it was in best interests of children to be mostly with mother whilst in nappies and it has remained.

We have talked a lot about attempting increases over the years. My DH works from home always on his own business, so childcare is straight forward for him. And I would support him in anything he wanted for his children. But we don’t think it’s good for the kids.

We moved house recently and every time we mentioned our “solicitor” my DSD would ask her dad about it. I think the poor little thing has PTSD surrounding that word.

The open door policy advice was sound advice. They morph as they hit secondary school, and then you might have him hanging around twice as much anyway.

I’ve blathered on for long enough. OP, you have your answer. Don’t keep engaging.

Yes you did blather on for long enough.

Also no one has said the lad doesn't like the OP, but obviously it pads your post out.

What most people have an issue with is that the lad has been asked several times if he wants to live there 50/50 and he has rejected it. The OP is now choosing to ignore that and is thinking about going through the courts anyway.

That extra time at his dads house will actually be spent with with the OP - not the dad.

I'm a dm & have always been very pro dc getting ample time with their nrp but honestly? - I think what you're describing here is both unnecessary and very unfair & if I were the dm in question I'd be telling you both to take a running jump.
This kid is perfectly settled and happy in his routine. There are no issues beyond the adults in question (your dp & you) wanting more time (for whatever reason) and assuming a 9 yr feels the same.
I'm not in Scotland - I'm in Ireland but I know that here, if your dp tried to change a long established routine that a child of that age was happy with & benefitting from he'd be laughed out of court.
My main issue with your posts is that you both are trying to 'persuade' sdc what's best for him & that's dreadfully unfair given he's happy & settled with his dm. He's not coming to you unhappy or with issues & worries so WHY are you wilfully trying to unsettle him?

You're right tho in that DP maybe couldn't have managed on his own in the past. Is this not the type of change in circumstances a court would take into account?

I know you are new to step-parenting but take it from me do not get involved at this level.

There have been a few threads on this board which you may be able to go back and find that explain why in detail due to the posters story.

Firstly the extra time is to spend with his father not you , and even more so if you are not the mother of any of the child's half-sibliings. If there were half-siblings then there could be an argument that you are facilitating the half-siblings spending time with one another but even then you would be advised not to get involved.

Secondly it is very common and happens in most Court cases that the mother (though fathers do as well) will make up damaging allegations about you to try to prevent you being with their child alone. The Court would then have to go through your background. If these allegations are backed up by the child then due to the child's dislike of you, you will never be allowed to be alone with them. You have no recourse to the law or any other Court if these allegations are made against you.

Gosh you're getting it with both barrels here, I'm sorry OP.

My advice would be to ask the boys mum if you can trial an extra evening, for a couple of months to see how it goes. Explain you don't want to court order something which the boy will be unhappy with as that's a waster of everyone's time and energy.

Tell her it won't affect maintenance, but that you want more time to spend with him, involvement at school, homework etc.

Then if it isn't working you will drop it.

I understand what you're saying regarding the mum, you might find it's not so much her brainwashing (and that's the kind of language putting peoples heckles up) but perhaps he doesn't want her to be sad, she may well have said nothing but her know a how much she loves him and is worried she will miss him.

@Evesgarden

Don’t get your knickers in a twist. And try to have some empathy. Most step mothers don’t come here looking to hurt or offend. Most step mothers don’t want to make their SC miserable.
This particular OP is misinformed, possibly by her own DP.
When it comes to SC, most step mothers entirely follow their DP’s lead. In this case, he’s wrong. He’s also wrong to think that now he has a woman, partner and pseudo-mum figure on the scene that he should get more time with his son.

We aren’t talking at cross purposes. We both seem to agree that this:

1. Isn’t in the boy’s best interests;
2. No court would allow it

After that, everything else is personally attacking this OP and is irrelevant.

I’d like this OP to feel like she could come back here again in the future, if she has more questions about the role she is stepping into. Particularly if she’s been given one-sided or poor advice from her DP on what this role is and how her DSS should be handled. Instead of bullying her out.

I'm still reading through all the replies.
Im really shocked at such a strong reaction to my dp wanting more time with his own DS.

To answer some of the questions, I have no dc and an not pregnant. Im mid 40s so as much as
I'd love to, it's unlikely

@chippe I am not close to family law in Scotland so some of my answers may be slightly out but I believe there are some similarities, especially as it comes to the role of family courts and child’s wishes.

1. firstly, what you’re hinting at here is that the mother is engaging in/ has engaged in parental alienation (PA). That’s for none of us on here to be able to say whether that is or is not happening.
   What I will categorically tell you is that parental alienation is not liked by the courts. Why? Because it is very very very hard to prove. Also, the fact that the child has been coming, per the existing CO. A judge will absolutely disregard it as on paper the mother has made the child consistently available for contact and therefore PA will be categorically ruled out. You also need specialists in this area to prove it (they cost tens of thousands of pounds and that’s only if the court agrees to them being appointed to work with the family/ cafcass).

2. Childs wishes: this is paramount and the main factor (by age 9) that will factor into any ongoing CO. The other key factors will be school teachers/ professionals around the child as they are completely neutral. If the child says he is happy as he is, and the school say ‘this child is fine under existing routine,’ you have virtually next to no grounds to get this. And it won’t happen.

3. Lets focus on the process here: it’s stressful and effectively the child will be interviewed and asked who they would like to spend time with. Not nice. It will also be drawn out so the child will be living under uncertainty as to what will happen with their routine. This process (if the application goes this far) will be stressful on the child.

4. Conflict/ relationship with the mother. This will make whatever is there, much higher conflict. Courts don’t like conflict between parents as it inevitably impacts the child. You need to be very careful that a judge doesn’t look at this and think your DP has unilaterally not looked at what is in the best interests of the child.

5. also bear in mind that if your DP does this application, the mother can cross petition. For less access, saying that she has abided by the existing CO but now the child is older it is no longer fit for purpose and his wishes need to be taken into account. What if he then says he wishes to come less? Orders can go both ways as an FYI.

I’m not commenting on whether I think this is right or wrong. But on paper - I don’t think you’ll be successful. You have asked the child, and he has repeatedly and clearly told you that he is happy with the existing arrangements. Accept that.

Leave the door open, let him know he is always welcome more. Perhaps try to go for an extra night via mediation. Or more after school contact.

I’m not saying the mother isn’t doing as you say (none of us know the truth, yourself included). But you can’t prove it and the courts won’t be interested.

This could backfire on your DP.

Do you live near his school / friends?

How much holiday time does your DP have with his son? I agree with previous poster who proposes asking to split holidays 50/50. That might be a good way to increase quality time together?
I also agree with the other poster who suggested your timing is bad - too late and too soon. If the kid is happy and settled and there are no concerns about life at mum’s, then it might be viewed by the courts as unnecessarily disruptive.
With respect to CMS reduction - we are in a different country so cannot completely equate but my partner has had 50/50 of his daughter for a couple of years now and we find that it’s every bit as expensive, if not more, than before 50/50. Children are expensive!!

As an aside (and this is meant kindly), step back and let your partner deal with this.
It’s great that you love your SS and that you’d love him there more.

My partner is also reviewing his existing CO and making a decision on what he thinks is in the best interests of his children. I’m not getting involved, I don’t have an opinion. His children, his ex, his contact.

Do I think 50/50 is in the best interests of the children? Depends on the children. My exh and I have 60/40, but mine is the primary base and they come to mine every day straight after school to change/ eat before making their way to their dads. In the mornings they walk to school from time, even though they can walk from his. Why? Because they like to walk to/ from school with their friends. Routine is important to them. I can tell you now that if he tried to change that routine now? He would meet resistance. They love their dad and their time with him, but they are clear that their prime base is with me.

And to be absolutely clear, my exh and I are amicable and zero PA at play.