How much do I owe his kids?

[hilfehilfehilfe]

I am 26. My partner is 32. He earns more than I do but not loads. We have been together since summer 2019. Was not the OW. He has 3 kids from his marriage and they are 5, 7 and 8. I met them Dec 20. I love him a lot but I am starting to feel trapped and unhappy and worried that this is just how my life is going to be forever now. DP is great, thoughtful, supportive and absolutely adores me.

He won't get divorced until his wife is settled with a new boyfriend and also wants to divorce. They never communicate so they would have to be very serious for DP to even have heard of his existence. He has done very little research about divorce and is overall just concerned about not being able to afford it. I am unhappy and ashamed of this and have told him so.

He has a large amount of debt (~£15k) that he is paying off in the agreed installments. He has done no research or work to look into paying this off faster.

He doesn't parent as I would want to. I do not want children so this is not as big an issue as it might be. I think he wants a blended family with me taking on more of a step mum role. I feel they have an amazing mum already and him, they do not need a third parent and I am just a nice, safe adult they know well. He resents my attitude on this.

I own and pay for our house entirely by myself. His contribution is he buys 2/3s(ish) of our groceries as he is meant to be clearing his debt. He is currently in a good financial position (i.e. not going into his overdraft each month and living within his paycheque but not able to save etc.). We moved in together into this house May 21. I resent that I bought this house and pay for it alone in order to protect myself in the event of the relationship not working out - but now it isn't really working for me I don't feel like I can ask him to move out as it would completely uproot his life and the childrens'.

I feel like I went from an individual person to a homeowner, breadwinner, provider and stepmum in the space of a few months. I don't think I want to break up but I do want to go back to being just an individual person in with my own space. I just don't know what I owe his children - their friends are on this street, their bedrooms are here. They love me, they love our life here and they are settled and very happy. I feel horribly guilty to even have wobbles about my relationship with their dad. I feel horrible about turfing DP out too and think it would damage our relationship perhaps fatally but I just feel like I'm suffocating and I need the situation to change. How do I do the right thing by the kids - can I say it's just him that moves out, and he can still have them here during his contact time?

Please help. What's fair of me to do. I don't want to hurt anyone but I can't remember the last time I was happy.

Good update OP. But don't focus on what your parents think is the right thing to do - ultimately, it's your life.

Morning, OP.

OK. Keep popping back. Take care.

@hilfehilfehilfe there’s no frustration on my path. I’m sure many of us have been in your shoes and hung on/ twisted ourselves into pretzels trying to make a relationship work. I certainly know I have.

The most valuable lesson I have learned in life is that nothing (aside from death) is certain. And sometimes giving a situation time and space is the best thing you can do in life. By that I mean, it is absolutely possible for him to move out, stand on his own two feet and continue to work on your relationship with you. It doesn’t have to be ‘get out, we’re over.’ If that’s what he’s choosing to do, that speaks volumes to his maturity.

Now listen, I’m not saying this guy is a write off. None of us know. But I will (with real certainty) say this. He is deeply resistant to change and to listening openly. I doubt anything real will resolve itself whilst he is firmly ensconced in your home. Living off you. Why would it? He has exactly what he wants and you where he wants you - what’s his reason to change anything? There isn’t one.

And that’s the part you need to get your head round. You’re no victim. You’re financially independent, you’ve clearly got your head screwed on and you have strong communication skills that I didn’t have at your age.
But if you allow this to plod on, then you are enabling his behaviour and enabling this core dysfunction in how he treats you. (And to be clear, he is operating with you with a lot of dysfunction to get you to accept his situation). You continue in this, you are part of the problem - and I say that with a great deal of compassion and support.

People can change. But real change has to come from within and it takes work (therapy) and time alone for people to really figure out what it is they need to do/ work on/ want in life.

This can work - even if he moves out. I’m in a 5+ year relationship (on/off) and we both retain separate homes for time with our respective children. If I had tried to cohabit and work on various issues that have come up, it wouldn’t have worked. We separated for about 6-9 months recently and in that time we both did work on ourselves. Not just him. Me too.

I learned that the only person responsible for my happiness is me. I learned what my boundaries were and I learned how to enforce them. Kindly, whilst still absolutely allowing for compromise within a relationship.

I’d advise counselling to help you work through things. I think you’re also getting quite disorientated as he pulls some quite unhealthy behaviours on you (leaving you reeling) and then effectively acts like nothing has happened and is charming/ handsome/ funny. Leaving you wondering if you’re imagining this all.
I imagine it leaves you feeling like you’ve been hit by a ten ton truck and yet he’s absolutely fine. It’s a very disorientating experience to be on the receiving end of (and it is abusive behaviour). I’m not saying he’s conscious of what he’s doing, but this won’t miraculously get better. You will see this side of him everytime you challenge him. And what it’s designed to do is program you into not challenging him/ voicing your needs if they are different to his.

Be really careful, none of us are disappointed in you. We’re worried for you. Because we can see what he’s doing.

But you are not a victim. You have choices. That’s what you need to remember.

I will add. You should read a book by Adam grant called Give and Take. It’s a fascinating exploration into the core psychology of people.
I’m (by nature) a giver. That’s fine if I interact with people who are also givers/ matchers (people who respond to who they are dealing with). But if I meet a taker (your partner is one of these), the risk is that that person will take and take (with no guilt), leaving the taker bled dry (financially, emotionally etc).

I’ve worked on moving to becoming a matcher in life (and this ties into boundaries). My partner (at his core) is a taker. Now I’ve chosen to remain in a relationship with him. Why? Because he’s moved to a matching style as have I. I’ve also implemented boundaries about what Im prepared to do around him/ his children - so that I don’t feel pressurised into doing things consistently that don’t make me happy. I’ve learned to say no.

He needs to change, but you also need to look at yourself and figure out if you do. Some givers remain givers and refuse to change (their choice) and there is something to be said for people who remain true to themselves and don’t let other people’s nasty nature change their level of generosity. Me? I’ve become a little more cynical and hardened. Only those who truly deserve it now get the ‘giving’ side of me. The rest? I match - including my partner.

There are ways forward that dont include ending this. If he’s open to them. But I don’t think you will see any sustained change while he remains under your roof, quite the opposite. He will do whatever it takes to stay where he is, as he has control. And he knows that. He’s not thinking of your happiness, he’s taking - so that his needs are met.

Wow

“That said, when we spoke yesterday he told me that if I ended things he would transfer to the opposite end of the country and arrange to see the children in the holidays, as he is only in this part of the country to be with me.”

This sort of comment could be unpicked
for days! If he stays your life will be littered every day with this type of .

Your first posts made me think he was just taking advantage of the situation for an easy life, but that comment about moving away if you split up shows just how manipulate he is.

I know it feels like it, I've been there, but you really don't owe him anything.

Well, he's clearly NOT only in the area because you are, he was already in the area before you started dating. It's not as though you met and then both moved to somewhere else.

If he's threatening to move .. That tells you he's not such a dedicated father & probably you'll find that he's not such a dedicated partner either.
As if he has plans to move .. doubt it. He can barely make plans for a divorce or get out of debt!
He's using everything he's got to make you feel guilty! You don't owe any of them anything! They are not your children, you are not responsible for their dads actions!
Take care of yourself!

I think it's worth recognising that there are lots of different ways of discussing/arguing. Some people present truths in their arguments and assume that others are also truthful (that's you). Other people will say whatever it takes to win an argument, being truthful is immaterial to them it only matters whether the other person finds it plausible. That's your DP, he is a bullshitter but because you only use truth every time he pumps out another lie it makes break your stride while you struggle to make sense of what he's saying. You're getting cognitive dissonance because you're trying to accept something as true when it clearly doesn't fit into reality as you know it.

You would probably find it easier to assume most things he says are bullshit and mentally and verbally dismiss them immediately so that you can concentrate on what's important to you. So when he says he will move away from his DC, that's bullshit and you can dismiss it immediately by telling him he makes his own choices for his own life and family.

Really interesting post @sassbott I am going to check out that book. It's definitely relevant for my life and I am sure for OP's too...

Maybe it's helpful OP to think about it in that way - in terms of giver/taker. I have been in two relationships that were similar in some ways to yours.... I am also a giver and they were both takers. That doesn't mean they are bad people, or consciously manipulative.... some are of course. But most aren't... often they are people who feel weak and insecure deep down, so don't have the internal capacity to meet their own needs - so they turn to others to do that. They genuinely don't see their own power in shaping their lives and they develop an entitlement for others to meet their needs. It also often comes in a refusal to take responsibility for their own lives. (So whether he sees his children is down to you, when really it isn't at all)...

When I was in these two relationships, I would also tell myself 'no but he's a good person'.... 'he's kind to me' etc... and those things were partly true. But looking back the 'goodness/kindness' was always at minimal cost (running you a bath really doesn't take much, whereas caring enough about how you feel to move out or get divorced does - so it doesn't get done.) you on the other hand probably do the little kind things for him too. But on top you do massive things that are really costing you- sacrificing the child free life you want: financially supporting another person; giving up your personal space; giving up what you want in life.

Both of the relationships I was in felt positive in many ways for many years.... both felt 'deleting' and unsatisfying whenever there was any conflict around needs (my being made to feel guilty and my ultimately telling myself not to make a fuss).,,, One ended with him cheating on me with somebody. (This was inconceivable to me, as I had given so much and we got on so well, but in the end he felt entitled to take what he wanted). The other ended with me being verbally abused for two years before ending it, when I was finally asked to give things that were so fundamental to me that I had to say no. They couldn't comprehend how I could refuse them, and blamed and castigated me as an awful person, despite my having been the giver for over a decade.

It is wonderful that you have great, supportive parents (hi mum and dad! ) but bear in mind that you may well all be givers. If as two givers, your mum and dad found each other, that is utterly wonderful... it means you can give without fear of being subsumed, because you are BOTH attentive to each others needs and would walk over hot coals for each other. And you would not take unfairly at the cost of your loved one..... I am now really lucky to be four years into a relationship with somebody who is also a giver. OP, it's like the oxygen is back in the room! He, by the way, is also far less well off than me financially, he lives in my house, and has complex family stuff. But that man bends over backwards every day to make my life better - at significant cost to himself. I have never in four years told him about a feeling or need of mine, which he has not cared about, validated, and stretched to meet. And he takes ownership of his own stuff - like a grown man. I am never expected to solve his problems...I never need to fight or formulate strong enough arguments to be heard....he WANTS to hear, because my well-being is a top priority for him.

Unfortunately, you are in a very different dance with your partner.

I wish you all the best in negotiating it....

Thanks @sassbott and @BraveGoldie for the givers/takers chat. I can totally relate to the "oxygen back in the room" comment in my current relationship, after a decade of dating takers and having to train myself out of giving and giving. I'm not even that lovely a person or anything, it's just that if someone I love is asking for something I'll go out of my way for them - to me (and OP) that's normal! And it takes time to realise they're not doing the same for you. Sometimes not even doing basics (like turning up on time/listening and trying to understand why not being divorced upsets you) for you.

I'm now with another "giver" - it's such a relief for both of us. You can relax, does that make sense? You know that you can be as nice and generous as you want because they are doing the same for you. If they're a dickhead one day and you calm them down and sort things out, they'll do the same for you when you're having a shit day.

OP I think you've come so far with this, I can totally understand when your gorgeous boyfriend is there and being funny, kind etc and there are no stresses, it seems bananas to think of breaking up. But the toll this is taking on you shows that the deeper stuff isn't working, he's a taker and he doesn't even see why you shouldn't want to give him it all and more. He isn't going to give you anything.

I think it shows just how clueless he is about your needs/wants that his "threat" is to see less of his kids. They're not even your kids? It's them/him/their mother who'd suffer from that. He obviously hasn't a clue (despite you telling him!) that you don't think of yourself as a stepmother and don't bloody want to be one. Is he - and I mean this kindly - not that bright?

@hilfehilfehilfe I get that this isn’t easy for you. But to say that he’d leave his kids if you don’t do what he wants is appalling. Those poor children, loving their dad and all the while he’ll only spend regular time with them if someone else does the work as otherwise he can’t be arsed.

You’re a kind person, your family sound lovely, I can’t see you happy with someone who threatens such cruelty to his children? When people tell you who they are, believe them. There are plenty of shit, absentee dads but it’s less often they tell you in advance. I know you love him but you can do so much better.

@hilfehilfehilfe I wouldn't worry about feeling like you are disappointing/frustrating anyone on this thread. Lots of us have come across similar characters in life, so can see through what he is doing without the benefit of the love goggles you are wearing. It's unlikely you will come to a decision overnight, it will come to you as you process more and more of your discussions with your DP.

Regarding your parents, I noticed your Mum very clearly did not push you in any particular direction, but emphasised the support you have from family, and what a lovely person you are. Turn to her.

You deserve much more than the crumbs your DP is prepared to give you. He has basically said "don't question my way of doing things, you need to put up and shut up."

However lovely he is outside these awkward/difficult conversations, those are not the actions of a kind and decent person. The nastiest thing he had said is that if you are not there he would minimise the time he sees his DC. If you had DC with him (I realise you said you didn't want any, but hypothetically), he would do the same to them. Think about the type of man who would jettison his own DC because a relationship has failed, and whether you really want to entwine your life with someone like that further. What he said is abhorrent, and you obviously know that.

It seems you are finding it difficult to reconcile the man you thought he was, to the man he had recently revealed himself to be. Don't. You don't need to understand why he is not the same person, he only wanted to reel you in. A series of counselling sessions may help you to work through your feelings and also to minimise the chance of you being taken advantage of again in future.

You don’t want to be a step-mum and your partner doesn’t parent as you would want to. You’re not in the least bit unreasonable for feeling this way. However, this does mean that the two of you are incompatible.

I own and pay for our house entirely by myself. His contribution is he buys 2/3s(ish) of our groceries as he is meant to be clearing his debt.

He's only breaking even on his paycheque while being with me as he has debt payments and signifcantly overpays his child maintenance.

But there is a cost to the first option - I can't risk accepting any financial help from him with the house in case it involves the house in the divorce, so I have to pay for the house and lifestyle by myself so there is a financial cost to me. In addition to this, I feel sad and ashamed and hurt that he won't get divorced and do the right thing by me. This is the cost of the easy option.

Your life is on hold, whether he accepts that or not. You can’t move on with your relationship and you can’t move on financially. He doesn’t think your reasons for wanting to change the situation are “good enough”, because he doesn’t appear to think that your wishes and feelings matter.

He is still so set on us being together forever and living in my house, as we are, until the debt is cleared and he's divorced etc.

I bet he is. Because this way, you’re subsidising everyone, including his wife.

[He said]. "If it were up to me, I'd never get divorced".

Please believe him, even if he backtracks on this one. And run! You deserve so much better.

At one point I asked him what he thought about moving out, as that would negate my "holding my life back" concerns

He said "if I move out I ain't coming back"

He doesn’t care about your concerns. And so much for him being devastated if you left him.

That said, when we spoke yesterday he told me that if I ended things he would transfer to the opposite end of the country and arrange to see the children in the holidays, as he is only in this part of the country to be with me.

He doesn’t sound very interested in parenting his own kids. Either that, or he’s lying, which is very manipulative.

I know everything I've said here looks awful, but the man in front of me is still the handsome man who runs me hot baths when I'm ill and makes me laugh and tries to solve my problems.

That’s the easy stuff. I’m sure he can be lovely, plausible, charming and affectionate. It sounds as though he’s charmed many of the people around you. Yet, when you don’t go along with what he wants, he becomes cold, stern and uncaring.

I don't want to hurt anyone but I can't remember the last time I was happy.

I think that’s the most important thing you’ve written. And I think from the kids’ point of view, the sooner you break up, the easier it will be to adjust. The kids have two parents to house, feed and clothe them. They aren’t your responsibility.

You sound like a lovely, caring person who tends to put herself last. But if the relationship isn’t working for one person, it isn’t working at all. “I’m unhappy”, is a good enough reason to end it, no justification required. I hope you choose to put yourself first

I think you’re hanging on way too desperately to the good parts of the relationship. If he punched you once a year is he still good? He may not hit, but he’s said some pretty awful things that make the bad parts of him quite bad. It will change you over time too, and not for the better.

I’m a parent to a daughter only a bit younger than you. I would be disappointed, worried and stressed if my daughter was in a relationship like this. I wouldn’t tell her though, as I’d want her to make her own choices. But I’d be always worried, and wonder how I’d failed her because she thought this was an acceptable life for herself. It would affect me negatively quite a bit, for as long as she remained like this. Your relationship choices will definitely be impacting your mum, but you are choosing an abusive man and his children before anything else.

@legoriakelne

Reading your updates I feel sad for you. I hope you won't throw your life away on this abuser. He targeted you when you were very young and vulnerable and has trained you to accept and excuse his abuse.

Your first observation is that he has no respect for you. Nothing else is relevant after that - this is not a relationship, it is one person exploiting and damaging another.

Submitting to coercive control and mistreatment is not what is meant when people talk of compromise in a healthy relationship.

So very sad. I wish you weren't living this way.

I agree with this.

@HilifesProudMama - what do you think?

Your original post is lovely and open and gracious - but I suspect that you have not been exposed to such classic coercion (emotional and financial abuse and exploitation) amongst your family and friends - so possibly don’t see the patterns that many of the unfortunate posters can see and have experienced.

Lots of chancers are charismatic and spend lots of energy grooming the family and friends with their fake charm which is a distraction and smoke screen and enables them the carry on with their exploitation behind closed doors leaving the victim is confused.

He has no respect for you or your feelings.
He is constantly gaslighting you.
He is emotionally blackmailing you.
He is using his children as a weapon.
He is saying if there is no free house, he will dump his kids and move to other sid of the country.
He is financially taking the piss out of you.
He is not divorced and is giving more money to his kids mother for their care than he gives to you - huge hint that about how he feels towards you, you are an unpaid nanny!

Do not stay in this relationship!!

Sorry but he doesn't love you enough, enough to divorce, enough to get rid of his debt.

You need to cut each other free.

The fact you're recognising you're not cut out to be a step-parent, is a huge part of this...because he is right when he says that him and the kids are a package - they truly are, and ultimately you chose to date; and subsequently fall in love with, a married man.
With hindsight, maybe wait for any new partners to be legally free, fully divorced, before committing again.

However...that's not to say it's being a step-parent that's the issue; it's the fact he is a taker, a manipulator and clearly a shockingly selfish deadbeat Dad. The fact he is trying to guilt you, by declaring he'd move away and not see the kids as regularly, is not your burden to carry.
I'm sure there is NOTHING stopping him changing jobs, getting a little flat near where his kids reside, and being a decent co-parent with his wife ["ex" wife]

You need to get ANGRY and see this situation for what it is. Your body - your gut instinct - is screaming at you, that's why you feel so uncomfortable and alarmed, and you are ignoring it.

Just have the conversation. Tell him it's over, tell him he needs to move out and get his own place. The move forward. He MAY even sort himself out, and grow as a person, but at the moment it all sounds incredibly co-dependent and toxic.

Run from this loser as fast as you can .

because he is right when he says that him and the kids are a package - they truly are, and ultimately you chose to date; and subsequently fall in love with, a married man.

The kids aren't the package with this man - OP's house & labour is.
If she removes her house & labour, he will abandon his kids.
He'd rather sponge off OP, & is happy to dump his kids if she doesn't play ball.

& I'm not sure what you are looking to achieve with the smug "hindsight" remark @SarahBop. Even the most cursory read of OP's posts shows that he promised to move ahead with the divorce, but then reneged.

OP - keep checking in.
It's reasonable for you not to be happy, and it's reasonable for you to change your mind about deadlines etc.
You don't need a good reason or a strong excuse.
I've always found that the word 'nevertheless' is useful.
eg "You didn't say that when we moved in together"
"Nevertheless, I have changed my mind"
etc
Wisjing you all the best.

@toothpicklover

He has no respect for you or your feelings. He is constantly gaslighting you. He is emotionally blackmailing you. He is using his children as a weapon. He is saying if there is no free house, he will dump his kids and move to other sid of the country. He is financially taking the piss out of you. He is not divorced and is giving more money to his kids mother for their care than he gives to you - huge hint that about how he feels towards you, you are an unpaid nanny!

Do not stay in this relationship!!

^agree with toothpicklover

(which feels like my fault - he's perfectly happy and I'm the one making problems)

You aren’t making problems, he is making you feel you are the one making problems. He really has done a number on you. I hope you will soon be able to move forward and heal, you deserve better

Compromises aren't being used or being blackmailed.

Compromise is you helping with his DC when they are over and he is ill or will be back from work late one day, possibly even an arrangement, e.g. that you help once a fortnight. He in turn pays to live with you (bills), helps with household things and is supportive.

He on the face of it says he's supportive (runs you baths) but he has unrealistic expectations and threatens you if you talk about separation. He is not being fair, don't accept it!

This type of parent rings so many alarm bells for me. His priority is to have his feet under the table despite the fact he has or had debt and three very young children. He is married so reconciling with his wife is still a possibility if he can't find new supply. These men are predators and he will abuse you financially and emotionally for years. Please don't choose this life. You want to continue the relationship apart. He doesn't because it doesn't give him the supply he needs. He's not good. I've been there and it took me years to accept he didn't love me, he was using me, my house, my money, my time, and to parent his young children. When we split up and the penny dropped for him I wasn't taking him back this time, the first thing he said was you'll never see my kids again and he was right. And he'd used those kids to reel me in and guilt trip me time and time again, but when it came down to genuinely loving them and wanting to create a family with them, deep down there were zero shits given. Your partner sounds like him and is using the same tactics. They go for the nuclear option when you try and discuss issues. I had the same threats about him moving away. It's designed to keep you with them and stop questioning them. He's abusive