A support cafe for any step mums out there!

[Bananasinpyjamas21]

If anyone wants it, and just wants to vent or get advice, feel free to post how you are getting on as a step mum. Summer holidays are coming up and this can be a tricky time for step mums.

I used to post on these boards a lot for advice, as I had a really difficult time as a step mum. I’ve got a much better perspective now. I know it’s hard for step kids too, and much of the problems lie with our husbands.

I had three DSDs who are now all in their 20s. We had one child together, and I have an older son. My marriage collapsed because of the stress, mainly due to one older DSDs resentment, his Exes resentment and DH not handling it well at all and blaming me for all. I made many mistakes, the biggest of which was moving into the ‘family home’. Never doing that again. I just remember how hard it was, so if anyone else is going through it… feel free to share.

@FishyFriday I would like to make it work but can't help to feel I was too naive and too positive to think these were just tiny issues, just a phase most step kids go through and of course that it will pass guickly...

Maybe it will. But it may also be indicative of the kind of loyalty bind that can really make it impossible for you to build a workable relationship with a stepchild in various ways.

Either way, knowing what kind of processes can be at work are probably the best way to handle these things sensitively and appropriately so that you can be one of those lovely success stories we'd all like to have.

One of the really tough things when a child has a loyalty conflict is that everything you might intuitively do can make it much worse. If the child feels that liking you would be a betrayal of mum, or a loss of whatever deeply felt hopes that his or her parents will be together again, then being nicer and warmer and more lovely can actually make it worse and worse for everyone (including the poor kid). Stepping back and being neutral may actually (and counterintuitively) be the route to much better relationships for everyone. That can be hard for everyone to accept - especially as it means people can slot you into the 'cold SM' box.

Knowing that this is an issue that a child will need help with is useful. If your partner can get to grips with this, then he can potentially avoid blaming you and seek ways of supporting his child. Some specialist therapy for the child would probably be a great thing. But it can be very hard for the parents to see that this isn't some accusation that there's something wrong with their kid (NRPs are often very, very defensive - especially as they fear their divorce/separation has harmed their child, and needing therapy would be evidence of this) and just a way to help them process a big change in their life.

We routinely offer counselling to bereaved children but much less so for children after family breakdown. But it might really make a big difference if it were just the standard thing. Actually when my parents split up and went to mediation (which didn't work because they're both idiots), the mediation service provided counselling for my sister and I at the same time as my parents' sessions. Unfortunately they offered it as a paired session and I most definitely did not want to talk in front of my sister. But it seems so sensible have this as standard in family mediation services.

It's also really important to understand what might've going on so that you don't start seeing yourself as the villain. That's so easy to do as a SM. Everyone else seems primed to and it's very easy to believe it yourself.

[quote Tara336]@Bananasinpyjamas21 I’m certainly used to being blamed for things! Before lockdown we went to a concert SD met us at venue, hadn’t seen her since her accusations of me swearing at her etc but once again I was willing to let it go. We arrived (myself, DD,STBH) and DD saw SD first and waved, she was blanked so assumed not been seen, when we got closer hi said hi how are you and SD turned her back on me! Blanked my DD again. When we went in the venue the atmosphere was awful STBH and I sat in between SD and DD and it was like we were separate groups all evening! My DD said I tried mum and I said it’s fine I know. STBH was very stressed and honestly the relief when SD got out the car when dropped home was palpable we went from sitting in the car in silence to relaxed and happy, chatting and laughing when she had gone,[/quote]
That sounds grim. Your DD sounds very mature about it all.

@Bananasinpyjamas21

I got - ‘mum says your are a hypocrite’! Because I bought a small bottle of coke to mix with rum… and wouldn’t let the kids drink it. Talk about stirring up bad feelings over nothing! *@FishyFriday* *@Magda72* *@Tara336* you are so right it can just become a big old mess, not in our control, but which we get the blame. A no win situation.

We had "you should be spending your money on me, not alcohol, how much did this cost?" (This was when SD found a bottle of vodka on the side in DH's house)

I had to leave the room when that happened. In fact I think I had to find an excuse to walk to the shop for no reason at all.

@FishyFriday thank you, she is and I’m very proud of her. I just think that how our children behave reflects on us as parents, I want her to be polite and respectful and have always taught her to treat people as she would like to be treated, but also to take no prisoners if needs must and she’s turned out to be a decent human being. I hated her being near her DF latest GF as she was the one who finally broke my marriage up but I kept quiet because to do anything else just causes my DD upset and I won’t have that no matter how I’m feeling, I just wish that the EX wife of my STBH had behaved in the same way my life would be a lot easier that’s for sure

Ah the mummy said game haha oh how I love that one. I have it regularly my faves so far 'mummy said my daddy is buying her a new house and a new car and not you' and 'your not married to my daddy are you' (obviously not as he isn't divorced not that she would know or understand!) then when I say no she said 'thats coz my daddy doesn't love you like he loved my mummy' 😂 oh how I laughed 🙄 DP did tell her to stop and that she was upsetting people in fairness and she wasn't to repeat such comments from mummy as they make people upset.

Do you all just feel that if the break up was dealt with differently by both parties we wouldn't be in this situation? It's the parents that are causing these situations the ex wife's with the viscious bitter comments and playing the children off and threats of no contact making non resident dad's on edge and jump through hoops in some bizarre power struggle. Does noone actually think of the children?!

@Vie8126

Ah the mummy said game haha oh how I love that one. I have it regularly my faves so far 'mummy said my daddy is buying her a new house and a new car and not you' and 'your not married to my daddy are you' (obviously not as he isn't divorced not that she would know or understand!) then when I say no she said 'thats coz my daddy doesn't love you like he loved my mummy' 😂 oh how I laughed 🙄 DP did tell her to stop and that she was upsetting people in fairness and she wasn't to repeat such comments from mummy as they make people upset.

Do you all just feel that if the break up was dealt with differently by both parties we wouldn't be in this situation? It's the parents that are causing these situations the ex wife's with the viscious bitter comments and playing the children off and threats of no contact making non resident dad's on edge and jump through hoops in some bizarre power struggle. Does noone actually think of the children?!

This happened to us in the long distant past! DH jumped through hoops and then some. He was really worried that he wouldn't see his DC if she objected. The problem back then was that the resident parent held all the cards. His ExW saw this as a way of getting all her own way. In turn this has screwed his DCs view of a healthy relationship. They too think that when they say something DH will jump. I can't tell you the number of Christmas's I spent mostly alone because ExW felt it was in the DCs interest to put on a united front even though he had married again. My advise is don't take any shit or else it will continue and unhealthy patterns of behaviour will become the norm!

My favourite was "mum says you're to take us on better holidays because she says camping is for poor people". Well, that's nice that mummy can afford to go to Florida, but daddy can't. Thankfully both DSD came out the other side as lovely young women of whom I am extremely fond.

Do you all just feel that if the break up was dealt with differently by both parties we wouldn't be in this situation? It's the parents that are causing these situations the ex wife's with the viscious bitter comments and playing the children off and threats of no contact making non resident dad's on edge and jump through hoops in some bizarre power struggle. Does noone actually think of the children?!

This is exactly the problem.

People get all moralistic and caught up in divorce being a big societal evil and bad for children. But actually it's not divorce that's the issue. It's your classic confusing correlation with causation failure of understanding, which means you miss the point.

The issue is that crap, high conflict relationships between parents are bad for children. They are bad while the parents are together. They are bad during and after divorce. Such parents are more likely to divorce because crap relationships are definitely as causative factor in relationship breakdown.

The harm to children isn't the divorce. It's the power struggles and general awful behaviour from the divorcing couple. The outcomes for children would be much better if people would get over themselves and behave like adults about this stuff.

Piling all the guilt and fear based parenting on top of an already teetering pile of awfulness is likely to make things topple over.

I was listening to a podcast yesterday & two women were discussing Infidelity. When describing trying to get over the breakdown of her marriage & forgiving her ex for cheating, one of them said the following:
"Forgiveness is releasing a particular connection between you. When you can't be connected in love it feels better to be connected in any other way than to not be connected at all. Passionate contempt is the second best thing to passionate love. Indifference is the worst thing."
Whether there is cheating or not involved in a break up I think this is the crux of the matter. A huge volume of couples do not actually end their relationship properly; they do not release their connections from each other & end up converting' what was once love (or a belief of love) to contempt. The relationship & subsequent break up dynamics never get released & this is where the dc end up, still stuck, in the middle of their parents dysfunctional relationship even though 'on paper' that relationship has ended. As @FishyFriday says - divorce isn't the problem. The problem is people don't know how to divorce healthily.
My exh tried to keep us tied in weird ways. I believe this was to assuage his guilt & also because after the break & being caught cheating he realised what he'd lost & actually didn't want to lose me further. I knew the only way I find some forgiveness & move on properly was to release our connection. In my case he didn't want me to release it so I had to sever it - no lawn cutting, no taking him up on offers to do my laundry!?!, not taking money offered from him beyond maintenance & tonnes of other small things that if I had continued to do them would have confused everything. The severing of physical ties with him coupled with therapy enabled me to cut him out of my life in all ways bar being the father of my dc. I have a good relationship with him now but to this day what I do bothers him in a way that is not reciprocated. If I had let him he could have sucked me into an unhealthy post separation dynamic but I didn't let him.
My exdp's exw was/is exactly as described above. Hating exdp meant as much to her as loving him & while exdp was 'over' her there was an aspect of their relationship he couldn't let go or get a handle on & so he was as culpable as she is maintaining that dynamic which played out around the dc.
I've been thinking about this a lot overnight with regards to how men get flamed for sometimes stepping away from dc. I think while many men may not consciously be aware that their ex is using contempt to cling on for dear life, subconsciously they know something is very wrong with the dynamic & I think this is why some men step back from the dc; that they know on some level the dc are being used to enflame the unhealthy dynamics & sometimes stepping back is the only way to break the fire.
I spoke to a friend this morning who's dp pays his maintenance & always has his door open to his dc & who does see them (more now as they are getting more independent) but who never forces access. She said for him this is exactly it. He believes he is showing his dc & my friend more love and respect by not forcing access as his exw is so locked into hating him that when he did force access it made everyone's lives harder especially the dc as it brought him into way too much contact with his exw & she loved that.
I'm not saying this is right but it does mean that my friend has minimal interference from his exw & has none of hardships we see on here.
Anyway I'm rambling on now, but in short Divorce is often only the conversion of a relationship between two people into a different, even more toxic version! If only I had know this when I met exdp .

@Magda72 it isn't a ramble.

You've explained why my DP's indifference to his ex has caused and continues to cause her to attempt to get and beg for more contact and communication with him in unhealthy ways.

Do you have a link to the podcast?

Hi @RedMarauder - I can't get the link to upload but if you go to wherever you get your podcasts & search: Glennon Doyle 'We can do Hard Things'. It's the Infidelity episode. I believe she's going to have her exh on it at some point to discuss successful coparenting after infidelity & divorce.

@Magda72

Think I've found it - podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/infidelity-how-do-we-trust-and-fully-love-again/id1564530722?i=1000522996320

@Magda72 I think your right and the podcast sounds interesting. I would say I’m indifferent now to Exh, I couldn’t care less what he does or doesn’t do as long as I’m left alone by him and his girlfriends. I found it hard to be civil for a while so I cut contact with him and now if on very rare occasions I may cross paths I’m very polite as if he’s just an acquaintance. I just didn’t want to make our DD life difficult and I think we’ve achieved that. It’s been an interesting few years! I had the OW stalk me and then met STBH and have had to deal with all the craziness that’s come with that!

I think that's really interesting and insightful @Magda72.

I too have been wondering about men who seem to be 'absent' (or are entirely absent) after the breakdown in a relationship. Obviously there are a range of motivations and experiences but it seems to me that not all of them are necessarily malevolent or even pure laziness. In some cases, it might be about putting the kids first and trying to give them a stable life free from unhealthy dynamics as far as possible. If you can't manage mutually disinterested ongoing contact with your ex, it might be better not to make your children into the foot soldiers of your proxy war (or the one being waged against you).

There are lots of situations where it is worth thinking about whose interests are actually being served. And what the 'best interests of the children' actually are (rather than their parents' wants and needs and the need to appear to conform to various social pressures). I don't think that being passed between an unhappy mother who hates her ex and a fearful guilt-ridden father is necessarily good for anyone involved.

It is definitely true that 'the opposite of love's indifference' (that's a lyric from a lumineers song). Getting there with an ex is useful all round.

Obviously I'm (and no one else is either, I'd imagine) any father just abandoning his children when a relationship breaks down.

But it is definitely possible that it might be something that slowly happens almost as a kindness (even though the world will see it as an evil - and see him as a useless, despicable 'father' without thinking about what might have led to this) where the ongoing conflict around contact etc is having a negative effect on the children.

Ideally the adults would sort themselves out, get over it, and put their children first. But they both have to do that.

I love this support thread, I don't know anyone in rl who is married to a man who still clings on to the conflict and you guys get it. Dh claims he hates rowing, but does row and continues to keep that conflict alive as he isn't indifferent and hasn't fully let their relationship go. I don't for one second believe he's in love with her or would get back with her, but they keep a relationship of conflict up.

Its a shit feeling knowing your dh is caught up emotionally with another person. I tried to explain this my counsellor but she didn't quite get it and said that they and other coparents will have levels of attachment to each other and that's normal. I don't think it is and am not in a conflict relationship with dcs dad.

@FishyFriday I saw on another thread that a poster's local authority had done a small research sample with adolescents suicide and self harm, the only thing all of the yp had in common was seperate parents fighting over them.

@StarryNight468 That doesn't surprise me. Ongoing parental conflict in which the children become the focus is absolutely the worst case scenario for a child.

It's a shame your counsellor didn't get it. I don't think ongoing attachment is generally very healthy. As you say, it's not usually any positive aspects that remain. And it is ok to move on.

I'd say that my ex and I are completely indifferent to each other. It's the easiest way. We are not indifferent to DS in any way, but we are not attached to each other in any way. It helps that we are broadly on the same page about what would be best for DS, and are reasonable enough to compromise on the differences that emerge.

My H is not indifferent to his ex. He hates her. And the differences in values between these two households is not easy to just compromise over. He is more invested in my ex than I am. He hates him and seems to feel vindicated because of the terrible things he knows that happened in that relationship. But it's ridiculous. They happened to me. He doesn't get to use that as a pretext for him making things difficult in what is otherwise peaceful and parallel coexistence.

Some people just can't do it, it seems.

@FishyFriday I have the same problem, my ex DH was an absolute shit to me during our marriage and divorce, my STBH hates him and gets so angry sometimes. I have said exactly the same thing it happened to me not you and I’m over it and have moved on. It worries me that there will be a time when they have to be in a room together and what may happen. I went through every emotion possible when divorcing but now I am indifferent to him for my DD sake I’m civil when I have crossed paths. It would be very easy to descend into a row with him as he irritates the life out of me but I resist because it’s better for DD if that doesn’t happen. Life would be better if we could have had some sort of debrief after the divorce and if he would finally come clean and bloody admit his affairs etc but for some reason he just won’t do that and leaves me feeling angry and frustrated. He admitted his emotional abuse though in fact he bought it up and said I can’t keep doing this to you. STBH says he can see the damage Exh caused and that’s why he’s so angry.

It's just not their anger to feel though. It's not reasonable for anyone to decide to be angry on my behalf. It doesn't help me in any way. It's just self indulgent machismo frankly and not appropriate.

I've worked hard to come to a point where I genuinely don't care. I am properly indifferent. My ex doesn't even irritate me because I just don't care.

We manage to communicate neutrally and effectively around DS and both try to put him first and see things from his perspective.

@StarryNight468 I hope you got yourself a new counsellor.

I've been told multiple times if you are paying for counselling and the counsellor doesn't get your life situation, stop wasting your money and find yourself a new one.

@FishyFriday and @Tara336 I have the same with my DP and my exh my DP doesn't understand how I can talk to him be civil etc it's been 13 years this year since we split up I'm well beyond anger and hurt. Like yous I'm indifferent I don't wish him no harm he is my children's father but I don't care about his life see your children pay your maintenance etc. I don't even get involved now with eow arrangements it's quite rare we will speak as they are old enough to sort it themselves. My DP gets jealous I think that I've always given my DP the children so easily and given him opportunities to be involved with school choices, assemblies, sports days, parent evening etc and he knows he won't have that. Him and dsds mum do not talk and all communication goes via mil which was court ordered. Ex still causes trouble and grief, mil felt caught in the middle and now refuses to have a relationship with us as well and just keeps to herself (we're both blocked!) so another relationship turned toxic because of the ex. DP wants to go back to court and have the order changed so that he can do the arrangements I'm dreading that tbh we do not have the money at present thankfully.

In regards to dad's walking away I know someone who has walked away from their two children due to level of toxicity that was being bought into his life. He had a CAO she continued to breach it he took her back to court and back to court nothing happened she still breached the order. She would phone and give him abuse or turn up with the kids to give abuse. She got her husband involved and he did the handovers and would threaten assault etc the police were not interested as its a civil matter and a breach of the CAO which going navk to court did nothing. As the children got older there was so many mind games and parental alienation from the mother the children would send him abusive messages and voice notes, demand to be taken out and moan he wasn't spending money on them (paid over and above CMS rates) he had this for 13 years he wouldn't see the children on father's days, Xmas or their birthdays the CAO was never followed mum would withhold contact for months on end and just bombard him with abuse. When the children did go to him the first night would be filled with them telling him all the awful things their mum and stepdad had said about him and would cause him so much upset that his children were exposed to this. They would go home and lie about what had happened been said so their mum or stepdad would randomly turn up screaming on the doorstep or bombard the family with screaming abusive phonecalls or mum would call them constantly on facetime and shout abuse during his contact time. He had enough the last time she withheld contact the children sent abusive messages for about 8 weeks to him, his partner and her daughter that in the end he stopped seeing them. He hasn't seen them in 2 years now it caused him a lot of pain but he had 13 years of hell and had to finally stop. It wasn't a decision he made lightly nor one that sits well with them as a family but it could not continue for everyone's sake. I understand his point and they all hope the children are happier now.

@FishyFriday I’ll get there, it’s just he has this way of being disapproving about things, I can’t explain it easily but he makes me feel like everything thing I do is wrong and everything I say is wrong. I was a nervous wreck in the end, when we were divorcing I had the OW stalking me and Exh was trying to bully me into his idea of a decent financial agreement. On the times I’ve seen him I’m polite and distant but I’m rattled and anxious for days afterwards because he just has this way of making me feel like shit. It would be nice I feel I didn’t have to see him but he visits my parents (I’ve asked him not too but I get ignored) I’ve asked my DM to stop letting him visit but apparently it’s none of my business who she has visit. So I visit alone in case Exh is there and I turn up with STBH because it happened that once I pulled on the drive as Exh was leaving and I thought it was going to kick off, Exh drove down road and then stopped the car and sat staring in rear view mirror at us. I don’t think anyone particularly cares in my family how I am in all of this and credit to STBH he didn’t do anything that day but he was angry on my behalf

You will get there @Tara336. It's hard.

@Magda72 interesting and useful podcast, thanks!
@Tara336 and @FishyFriday @StarryNight468 @Vie8126 my Ex is quite volatile at times, however I managed it without dragging my child or DH into it. Whereas he would shrug about his Ex, and almost enjoy I think watching the drama if she vented at me - like he was out of the firing line! She directly affected me I guess, with comments, or sending the kids around to the house with no warning when I was there on maternity leave, and she knew DH was at work.

So I think the difference was, I wasn’t indifferent to my Ex as he still got to me. But I managed it, kept it at arms length. DH almost invited her in and put up no boundaries at all.