I was a Big Evil SM :(

[size4riggerboots]

Well, I feel like I was anyway.

Since I last posted here over well over a year ago ( backstory here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/stepparenting/1846550-Hi-New-here-just-trying-to-figure-a-few-things-out-advice-welcomed ) things have been going well. I've been away at work for 253 days out of 365 (I just did my tax return), we bought a house, which DS loves too. She is now 8 and a half, and we still have a great relationship, still struggling with knife and fork, can read and tell the time but doesn't want to bother so says it's too hard. Plus, DP and Ex have got on well for the longest time ever, even now things are going tits up!

FYI I have been at sea since just after Christmas, and came home for 6 weeks leave at the end of April, so we've had 2 weekends with her.

1st weekend: So here's the issue: she sucks her thumb. (Ok, so she also needs asking 15 times before she does something and flies into a tantrum when she doesn't get her own way but we're mostly competent at dealing with those things). I realise that there are people who will say it should be stopped because of how it may affect her teeth, and those who will say let her do it it's a great comfort, and I understand both of those view points. Personally I think it encourages her to be babyish (there a multitude of other babyish habits, but that's for another time), and is possibly contributing to her being bullied at school. For these reasons, her mum is also of the opinion that she needs to stop sucking it, but her greatest weapon seems to be the threat of removal of the all hallowed i-pad. (Knowledge gained in the conversation I had with Ex herself, after the event..)

I (and DP) believe in the power of consequences, (frankly if I thought for a second I would ever in a million years get away with a short sharp smack across her bum, I would [never did any lasting damage to me and I damn well remembered the lesson]) so I threatened her with something much worse. Pepper sauce on the thumb. She looked suitably terrified and the thumb was absent for a while, over the rest of the weekend I continued to try this and it worked pretty well. She had a sleepover with 2 friends at our house (Ninja surprise attack of "Dad, can they sleep over?!?!?!" ....."Errrrr, if their mum doesn't mind" sigh) and was knackered on sunday morning. And when she's tired the thumb automatically goes into the mouth... Now, after telling a child the same thing over and over again every minute or so for half an hour (this may be an exaggeration but it felt like it) I was getting pretty damn annoyed. And I got the pepper sauce out of the cupboard.

Meanwhile her dad is also getting frustrated, for the same reasons as me, we're all in the kitchen at MIL's house, so she's talking too, and (Oh the power of hindsight and analysis) poor wee DS is getting just as fed up with it all as we are, and she's tired, so the thumb just keeps popping into that mouth.

I wasn't thinking like that at the time though. I felt like she was just doing it to piss us off. So I did it.

She was (understandably) not happy at this turn of events. However, the fireworks only lit when she licked it. I put tabasco-frikkin-sauce on her thumbs, how frikkin dumb am I?!? I realized immediately that I had gone too far, but hindsight, even a second after, is too late. Of course she rubbed her eyes then because she was crying. Oh god I felt bad. We washed her eye and then MIL swept her away from me for cuddles and comfort (she was [again, understandably] pissed off at me right then). When we'd all calmed down, I did apologize to DS and we had cuddles and then lunch and then the long drive north to return her to her mum. She called her mum from the car and I was surprised (and relieved) to note that she did not mention the incident. I decided that I ought to admit my mistake/fuck up to Ex at the handover and when I had she said that she'd rather I didn't do that I agreed and apologized again, deeply aware of how well within possibility it was that she could have thrown a huge fit at me (heck if the shoes were on the other feet..). I got hugs and kisses as we said goodbye (from DS, not ex!)

2nd weekend: So, it kinda felt like we'd gotten away with it. We had a great weekend, on friday I had a meal ready and waiting when they got in, bedtime not too unreasonable, saturday we visit my sister who has a toddler, DS and my nephew get on like a house on fire, DS is asking questions about whether she'd be part of mine and my sisters family if DP and I got married, lots of hugs all round... Sat eve we have the usual phone call to mum/ex and she comes up with the idea of a treat if DS only has to be told to stop sucking her thumb say, 3 times in a day. More than that, no treat. Super idea, says I, lets try that, and because she's been so busy and engaged all day we've barely had to tell her to take her thumb out so she gets a small chocolate egg and everyone is happy :) Sunday, I'm making my first ever roast leg of lamb (It was home grown, I come from a family of sheep farmers, this is as close as I come to religion) MIL comes over to us, they all watch a film, I cook in a happy domestic bliss... Watching TV being the second primary trigger for unconscious thumb sucking, it's popping into her mouth more and more, I'm keeping away from this though, it's her Dads job to deal with this one, I overstepped the mark once, not going to risk it again. So last weekend DP came up with the idea of masking tape around her thumbs, and decides to try this now. And actually, it works.

It worked up until the point that DS was told that, now the film was over she needed to practice her lines. (She wants to audition for a drama school). Didn't want to practice her lines. Gets out her phone and calls mum. Mum says she should do her lines. Suddenly the masking tape on her thumbs is the most awful thing ever, she can't get it off and she won't let anyone take it off because she's scared it will hurt. I do my very best, I'm on my knees, calm and soft voiced, offering to help but she doesn't want any of it, so I suggest that she needs to calm down and then tell us what she wants because we can't actually understand what she's saying, and maybe she should go and sit in her room while she calms down. She calmed down a lot after that, (perhaps because not being seen while you're being upset is not as effective). So after that's all cleared up, we have a lovely lunch (she ate everything and asked for seconds which is high praise indeed) and in the car journey north I only have to tell her three times to take her thumb out (so no treat..). Handover is happy happy, DS is excited about the prospect of next time we have her which will be a bit longer (half term) and we can go visit my folks in idyllic ...shire, (she LOVES the dog), Ex and I have a genuinely fun chat about DS's "boyfriend"... everything seems pretty peachy.

And now DS is apparently refusing to come down to see us, to the point where she would rather stay in her grandparents caravan than go home with her mum because "Daddy doesn't know where to find her and can't come and take her away". So suddenly we're at the point where Ex is saying she's going to break the court order, and we're going to have to pay for mediation, play therapy and generally jump through hoops again so that DP can see his child. The fact that Ex is still being calm and friendly and genuinely perplexed as to the origin of this behaviour is good, but I don't trust her parents not to be muttering things into DS's ear (their dislike of DP is intense, vitriolic and longstanding. In the years before DS was born, when DP and Ex were together and we were all friends she told us herself on may occasions how manipulative they were). However, I'm deeply worried that one of the driving factors may be that we've gone too hard on her about the thumb sucking thing and she now thinks that we're going to demonise her about it. The fact that she won't talk to her mum about it either suggests to me that perhaps we've almost gone too far on providing a united front...

It could be something completely different, but I really needed to vent all that anyway. I apologise for the ridiculously long post and thank you for bearing with me if you got this far.

I don't think you were abusive, misguided obviously and over invested in the outcome. You clearly didn't think through the hot sauce as you didn't predict her rubbing her eyes and I'm sure you didn't plan for her to rub her eyes so i can't see how this was planned to hurt her. It's hot sauce, yes it's a shock to the tastebuds when you're not used to it or prepared for it, but just tasting it isn't painful. The pain was from rubbing her eyes.

You've acknowledged how you need to step back, but if I were you I'd make the effort to go and see my DSD with her Mum and apologise to her for all of it. Explain that you acted wrong and stupid, as she must be very worried about seeing you again. Doing it at her house with her Mum might take that fear away. She is 8 at the end of the day and should be able to have a conversation with you. I know you apologised at the time but I think doing it now when it has calmed down a bit will show her that you actually are sorry and it wasn't just a reaction to her crying.

Nicki You're right, although she also won't talk to her mum about it, I think that's probably because we've all been on at her to stop.

Rudawakening Thank you. Yes, we are going to do that this weekend. (They live 4hrs away from us, so we can't just pop round whenever)

OP if you have made a dangerous or damaging threat it is alright to admit it and look for a different solution.

I'd recommend this book for now.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1892222043/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1432738949&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SY200_QL40&keywords=the+incredible+years+book&dpPl=1&dpID=51J5GnnUxPL&ref=plSrch

Our (lovely) health visiting team run courses based on it so it's a middle ground sort of book.

I think it's easy to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to children's behaviour and how much you can enforce your will on them. It's also easier to use force (threats etc) but you need to learn to get clever and avoid the confrontation in the first place. You then aren't giving in and risking her getting spoilt, you're just dodging it. You don't need to win all the time.

These are things I have had to learn too btw.

There are also some good articles on www.ahaparenting.com

First, as a step parent your role is NOT to be a parent - it is to be a trusted older friend.

That's it. No more. So definitely no discipline. If you are ever in doubt ask yourself would you be saying/doing these things in front of her mum?

Second, the 'manual' is to be KIND. That's all there is to it. Not cruel to be kind, not kind in the long-term, just kind. Every time.

I think the forensic way to describe your bullying and its intimidating effect is chilling and you should seek counselling.

Thank you very much for that RoganJosh I have ordered it.

op Ive name changed for this as I have family in here.

I can see you have admitted you out of order and that's a start I suppose, but I think your really reading your partners dd wrong.

Children are fabulous actors when they need to be. I've been that child seeing through a weekend visit only to get back to my fathers (I lived with him) and not want to go back.

My mother had no parenting skills what so ever and applied 'punishments' like that to me. It made me scared of her. I didn't respect Her it just made me not want to be around her.

The cuddles and hugs she was giving you were to keep on your good side.

This is such a sad thread for me to read as sometimes adults just get it so wrong under the excuse of ' we're just doing our best' . Sometimes your best isn't good enough. I remember sitting quietly counting down the seconds till I could leave and my step father asking if I was sad I was going and if I wanted I could stay longer. They had no clue how they made me feel.

Be very wary at her mothers calmness. This could be the calm before the storm. I wouldn't let my child be around you again and that may actually be a reality soon.

And I never ever once had a cross word with my SM but I am still deeply hurt by her coldness and lack of warmth to me.

I think it's only right that people are vitriolic and horrified by harm done to children by the adults in their lives. I agree you really haven't had a flaming, you've had a lot of people genuinely concerned about how you talk about this girl. It seems a bit worse now you say that you weren't trying to be funny.

Some personal therapy or family therapy might be helpful and a parenting course. I think most people benefit from some personal time out to consider their lives when they're in a complex family situation so I am not saying this to shame. I wish you luck with it.

I think some people forget, or never realise, that children are people. With the same physical feelings and same emotions as you as an adult have. Except children are living in a world they have no control over, with confusing (to them) rules that they are trying to navigate their way through.

It may sound simplistic but when you are dealing with a child, trying to work out how best to work through a situation first of all stop yourself, remind yourself that this is another person, a real person. Secondly try and picture how it feels from their viewpoint. What is going on in her life that might make it the wrong time to give up her thumb sucking, how do you think it feels to be nagged 10/20/30 times in an afternoon to stop doing something? Would it frustrate you? Would you feel like saying "fuck it, i'll do it if i want"? Would you want to go off and be away from the nagging? Realy put yourself in her shoes (i guarantee you there will be habits you have that irritate her) and try and approach problems/issues with a bit of understanding. You are far more likely to get the outcome you desire if you are involving her in the solution an doing it with her co-operation.

Another "motto" i instigated in my own house when i was struggling with toddler tantrums was "positive contact". Might sound ridiculous but i made a conscious effort to make each interaction with my child a positive rather than negative one. So instead of saying "dont suck your thumb" try offering her hands a job to do (set the table, wash your hands, feed the cat, brush your hair, tidy those toys) also dont use punishments, use rewards. Carrot, instead of stick. I know it i hard but you need, really need, to control your temper. I would really advise that when you feel yourself getting fed up with her just take yourself out of the room and do as above; remind yourself she is a person, try and see things from her position and think up a positive way to handle the situation. Then go back in and deal with it calmly.

Definitely do parenting courses too- for both you and DP. But i also agree you need to step back massively- you really dont have the right attitude to be disciplining children.

Greyrabbit1, duplodon and SurlyCue*, you're all right, and thank you for your advice. I am looking for a local parenting course.

Have you spent only 2 weekends with your step daughter this year?

How many days a week/month/year are you spending with her?

antimatter Yes, I have only been home for 2 weekends with her this year. Last leave, (again only 6 weeks) I had 2 weekends and a week over the Christmas holiday. We had a great time, with no dramas, and over the last 5 years she has always been genuinely delighted to see me. I know that I don't spend much time with her, and I know I got too heavy handed this leave, I won't be making the same mistake again. I'm also planning on moving to a job closer to home, with hopefully, a better leave schedule.

Well surely as an adult trusted friend you'd feel confident telling the child not to jump on a sofa?

I don't mean that you can never talk to the child as a child in an adult way - but it's the way it's done and the where it stops that's different. For example, I would say 'DSD you know you should not be jumping on the couch, get down now. Shall we have a game of something?' or something like that.

But, if she ignored me I'd walk away. As a friend, it's not really my responsibility to enforce it. I'd mention it to the parent. I'd also never take sole charge for more than a few minutes so that I didn't have to morph into a parental role.

The single exception being when your intervention is needed to prevent an accident eg smacking hand out of the way before being burnt.

I am confused (though admit I may not have read every post as I got a bit lost in the 'is it or isn't it abuse and are we all trained in CP' part of the thread) how much the OP and the dp see the child.

I get that the OP sees her only when she is on leave and that this is a current 6 week leave and they have seen her twice. But hasn't dp seen the child in the intervening times?

Also - it would appear that OP has not, nor has dp, told the ex that these things happened. Having realised that the behaviour (by the adults!) was extreme surely they should have informed the resident parent - who is now having to deal with an upset child while she is wondering what has happened. The grown up thing to do now would be to phone the ex and explain to her what happened, how it all escalated and how much remorse the dp has over it all. The dp should obviously do this, not the op.

If the child is so upset, as she appears to be, to say she wants to go and live with someone else, then this issue is bound to come out at some point and ex will wonder why you didn't tell her and what else might be being hidden. I know that is what I would think - I wouldn't trust dp or op to have the child again.

As an aside - I sucked my thumb until I was about 15/16. I used to have sticky-out teeth and I had a brace which I used to take out at night and hide to be able to suck my thumb. I had a difficult childhood and I suppose it was some comfort to me. No-one seemed to realise this was a symptom of a disturbed child, or if they did no-one did anything about it. Don't be that person. Realise this is the child's comfort, right now she needs it, don't make this a battle ground for her. She'll grow up fine despite sucking her thumb. I don't do it any more :)

I get that the OP sees her only when she is on leave and that this is a current 6 week leave and they have seen her twice. But hasn't dp seen the child in the intervening times?

Yes, he has her every other weekend and the holidays are split evenly.

Also - it would appear that OP has not, nor has dp, told the ex that these things happened

Incorrect, I did cover this in the op, but it's long and rambling so I understand if you missed it: I told Ex about the pepper sauce incident that same afternoon when we were sat chatting at the handover, I apologised and explained that I knew I had fucked up and would not do it or anything like it again, she then went on to discuss alternatives, such as "stop-n-grow". The masking tape incident only really became an incident when DSD was on the phone to her mum because she did not want to practise her lines for the upcoming drama school audition, which is something she really wants to do. Ex agreed with DP who was the one trying to get DSD to do the line practice, when she found that she wasn't going to get an easy pass from her mum on that one, she started fretting about her taped thumb, which hadn't appeared to be bothering her up until then, and it escalated. (It had been on for about an hour while DP, MIL and DSD were watching a film cuddled up on the sofa). The tape was not my idea, neither did I "give it the OK", it was DPs idea and he had raised it as a possibility at the previous handover with Ex. I was out of the room when he did it, as I had already taken concious steps to back off and concentrate on making a family meal and let him do the parenting.

I think a parenting course is a good idea for you. But if I was that child's mum it honestly wouldn't make a difference to me. You could go on every course, read every book and apologise a thousand times.

I wouldn't forgive you and I wouldn't allow you near my child again. I can't think of any circumstances where I would find it ok for you to continue any kind of relationship with my child.

I would be saying to my ex that he would have to go to court for access if you being present was part of the deal.

On a total side note, just because she sucks her thumb doesn't mean there will be damage to her teeth.

OP - my DCS SM did something similar with spicy food that gives one of them profuse diarrhoea and stomach cramps on more than one occasion. Whether the other 2 are affected, we have not tested the theory as they have all seen the results and profess to hate said food.

I like, your DPs Ex have remained calm in my conversations with him about it.Me having a complete and utter meltdown would further the cause and cause more problems. I do not speak to his DP.

It was extremely hard to get my eldest DC to want to go back there, never wanted to be in the house with her on their own, wanted Dad to fix tea etc, etc.ALl justifiable behaviour. I note my EX never leaves them in her sole care anymore - which must make life v difficult for them but then contact is so sparse - they can probably cope with the

To abuse a childs trust - which is what you did was wrong. You have acknowledged this and need to move forward - but everyones obsession with her thumb is going to be your down fall. Ignore it and move on. Your resentment of the cost and inconvenience your actions will cause is worrying.

Underneath I was seething, but showing the children my anger would not help them and stopping them from going to their house, would destroy the fragile string of a relationship they have with their father. My elephant memory will never forget.

Wow! Thank heavens that wasnt my daughter. I would have made a call to the forces welfare about what you did. Smack her ass?

You aren't her parent, stop getting involved in her behaviour. She is there to see your dh.

Remember that. And back right off.

I can't believe I just read this. Poor, poor little girl. Her father needs to step in and stop your behaviour. If anyone did this to my child I'd be furious. Why on earth do you care if she sucks her thumb? And smacking? Jesus. Her father needs to step in now!