I was a Big Evil SM :(

[size4riggerboots]

Well, I feel like I was anyway.

Since I last posted here over well over a year ago ( backstory here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/stepparenting/1846550-Hi-New-here-just-trying-to-figure-a-few-things-out-advice-welcomed ) things have been going well. I've been away at work for 253 days out of 365 (I just did my tax return), we bought a house, which DS loves too. She is now 8 and a half, and we still have a great relationship, still struggling with knife and fork, can read and tell the time but doesn't want to bother so says it's too hard. Plus, DP and Ex have got on well for the longest time ever, even now things are going tits up!

FYI I have been at sea since just after Christmas, and came home for 6 weeks leave at the end of April, so we've had 2 weekends with her.

1st weekend: So here's the issue: she sucks her thumb. (Ok, so she also needs asking 15 times before she does something and flies into a tantrum when she doesn't get her own way but we're mostly competent at dealing with those things). I realise that there are people who will say it should be stopped because of how it may affect her teeth, and those who will say let her do it it's a great comfort, and I understand both of those view points. Personally I think it encourages her to be babyish (there a multitude of other babyish habits, but that's for another time), and is possibly contributing to her being bullied at school. For these reasons, her mum is also of the opinion that she needs to stop sucking it, but her greatest weapon seems to be the threat of removal of the all hallowed i-pad. (Knowledge gained in the conversation I had with Ex herself, after the event..)

I (and DP) believe in the power of consequences, (frankly if I thought for a second I would ever in a million years get away with a short sharp smack across her bum, I would [never did any lasting damage to me and I damn well remembered the lesson]) so I threatened her with something much worse. Pepper sauce on the thumb. She looked suitably terrified and the thumb was absent for a while, over the rest of the weekend I continued to try this and it worked pretty well. She had a sleepover with 2 friends at our house (Ninja surprise attack of "Dad, can they sleep over?!?!?!" ....."Errrrr, if their mum doesn't mind" sigh) and was knackered on sunday morning. And when she's tired the thumb automatically goes into the mouth... Now, after telling a child the same thing over and over again every minute or so for half an hour (this may be an exaggeration but it felt like it) I was getting pretty damn annoyed. And I got the pepper sauce out of the cupboard.

Meanwhile her dad is also getting frustrated, for the same reasons as me, we're all in the kitchen at MIL's house, so she's talking too, and (Oh the power of hindsight and analysis) poor wee DS is getting just as fed up with it all as we are, and she's tired, so the thumb just keeps popping into that mouth.

I wasn't thinking like that at the time though. I felt like she was just doing it to piss us off. So I did it.

She was (understandably) not happy at this turn of events. However, the fireworks only lit when she licked it. I put tabasco-frikkin-sauce on her thumbs, how frikkin dumb am I?!? I realized immediately that I had gone too far, but hindsight, even a second after, is too late. Of course she rubbed her eyes then because she was crying. Oh god I felt bad. We washed her eye and then MIL swept her away from me for cuddles and comfort (she was [again, understandably] pissed off at me right then). When we'd all calmed down, I did apologize to DS and we had cuddles and then lunch and then the long drive north to return her to her mum. She called her mum from the car and I was surprised (and relieved) to note that she did not mention the incident. I decided that I ought to admit my mistake/fuck up to Ex at the handover and when I had she said that she'd rather I didn't do that I agreed and apologized again, deeply aware of how well within possibility it was that she could have thrown a huge fit at me (heck if the shoes were on the other feet..). I got hugs and kisses as we said goodbye (from DS, not ex!)

2nd weekend: So, it kinda felt like we'd gotten away with it. We had a great weekend, on friday I had a meal ready and waiting when they got in, bedtime not too unreasonable, saturday we visit my sister who has a toddler, DS and my nephew get on like a house on fire, DS is asking questions about whether she'd be part of mine and my sisters family if DP and I got married, lots of hugs all round... Sat eve we have the usual phone call to mum/ex and she comes up with the idea of a treat if DS only has to be told to stop sucking her thumb say, 3 times in a day. More than that, no treat. Super idea, says I, lets try that, and because she's been so busy and engaged all day we've barely had to tell her to take her thumb out so she gets a small chocolate egg and everyone is happy :) Sunday, I'm making my first ever roast leg of lamb (It was home grown, I come from a family of sheep farmers, this is as close as I come to religion) MIL comes over to us, they all watch a film, I cook in a happy domestic bliss... Watching TV being the second primary trigger for unconscious thumb sucking, it's popping into her mouth more and more, I'm keeping away from this though, it's her Dads job to deal with this one, I overstepped the mark once, not going to risk it again. So last weekend DP came up with the idea of masking tape around her thumbs, and decides to try this now. And actually, it works.

It worked up until the point that DS was told that, now the film was over she needed to practice her lines. (She wants to audition for a drama school). Didn't want to practice her lines. Gets out her phone and calls mum. Mum says she should do her lines. Suddenly the masking tape on her thumbs is the most awful thing ever, she can't get it off and she won't let anyone take it off because she's scared it will hurt. I do my very best, I'm on my knees, calm and soft voiced, offering to help but she doesn't want any of it, so I suggest that she needs to calm down and then tell us what she wants because we can't actually understand what she's saying, and maybe she should go and sit in her room while she calms down. She calmed down a lot after that, (perhaps because not being seen while you're being upset is not as effective). So after that's all cleared up, we have a lovely lunch (she ate everything and asked for seconds which is high praise indeed) and in the car journey north I only have to tell her three times to take her thumb out (so no treat..). Handover is happy happy, DS is excited about the prospect of next time we have her which will be a bit longer (half term) and we can go visit my folks in idyllic ...shire, (she LOVES the dog), Ex and I have a genuinely fun chat about DS's "boyfriend"... everything seems pretty peachy.

And now DS is apparently refusing to come down to see us, to the point where she would rather stay in her grandparents caravan than go home with her mum because "Daddy doesn't know where to find her and can't come and take her away". So suddenly we're at the point where Ex is saying she's going to break the court order, and we're going to have to pay for mediation, play therapy and generally jump through hoops again so that DP can see his child. The fact that Ex is still being calm and friendly and genuinely perplexed as to the origin of this behaviour is good, but I don't trust her parents not to be muttering things into DS's ear (their dislike of DP is intense, vitriolic and longstanding. In the years before DS was born, when DP and Ex were together and we were all friends she told us herself on may occasions how manipulative they were). However, I'm deeply worried that one of the driving factors may be that we've gone too hard on her about the thumb sucking thing and she now thinks that we're going to demonise her about it. The fact that she won't talk to her mum about it either suggests to me that perhaps we've almost gone too far on providing a united front...

It could be something completely different, but I really needed to vent all that anyway. I apologise for the ridiculously long post and thank you for bearing with me if you got this far.

I agree, extremely worrying from someone in professional contact with abused children.

iama you are wrong.

Most come from coercive environments themselves and think this is normal.

You are somewhat correct, but consider also that there are many people who come from coercive environments who do not end up as abusers. In fact the vast majority don't end up this way. There isn't a particular rhyme or reason as to why some do and some don't.

The rhetoric of 'they don't know it's wrong' is worrying in itself as it's the rhetoric that encourages women to stay with abusive men, for example, in the hopes that they may change. That's what I find worrying.

Many of my colleagues grew up in abusive households (hence why they work in the area we do) and they all realised the abuse was wrong at some point. Children are very perceptive and generally speaking always realise something is 'not right'. How that translates in later life varies from individual to individual but you'd be surprised how early and how often they realise, even if they are told they are wrong.

I would say it's far more worrying that there appears to be a sizeable majority of the public who think that abusers have no idea what they're doing!

iamadaftcoo When was your most recent CP training? You seem very out of touch with current practice for someone who works with children.

Again, what exactly do you do iama? What is your job title?

I would say it's far more worrying that there appears to be a sizeable majority of the public who think that abusers have no idea what they're doing!

You are deliberately misrepresenting what has been said. Nobody said abusers dont know what they are doing. I and others have said some abusers dont know that their actions are abusive.

Why hasn't your DP dumped you?

Oh he's not so hot himself arsenic he thought wrapping masking tape round his child's thumb was the way forward in dealing with the thumb sucking.

Can't say what I do as I would totally out myself, it is quite specific.

As to my most recent CP training, it was a couple of weeks ago!

In any case my opinions here have little bearing on my work as we obviously have to do things 'by the book'. I'm just saying that in private, for those of us who work both with abusers and the abused, my opinions are not unusual.

When you work with children who have suffered the most horrendous abuse (physical and emotional), it is really quite galling to come on MN and see parents who have, for example, left their children alone at a park for 10 minutes called abusive. As I have said, the example in the OP was a dreadfully poor parenting decision, and I do not condone it, but I do not believe it is abuse.

Nobody said abusers dont know what they are doing. I and others have said some abusers dont know that their actions are abusive.

That's exactly the same thing, surely?

Actually, is this thread even for real? Because I can't quite believe that DSD's mother wouldn't have been furious at OP for what she did.

iama

To be in an abusive home as a child, where the abuse consists of out of control adults inflicting their will and whims in a haphazard (and angry) way, is terrifying.

And no less abusive because it doesn't involve the worst violence imaginable and sexual abuse.

iamdaft I actually don't believe you work with abused children. BUT if you do it's not hard to see how children slip though the net

Why didn't the Mil say anything? The child looked 'suitably terrified' I can't believe anyone would be pleased at that. The op Is a bully. If this is a true thread,

I have actually suffered serious abuse in my childhood iama and I still think this is abusive behaviour.

I find your stance and claim that the majority of your work colleague believe the same as you really worrying actually. I am just hoping that you're bigging yourself up and hopefully don't have that much responsibility and influence in your job, I am hoping this because you do sound pretty clueless so it's a possibility that you may not be as important as you imply. You are of course entitled to believe this is not abuse but the argument "well it's not as serious as lots of other cases" is nonsensical and unprofessional and terrifying

That's exactly the same thing, surely?

Only if when you said abusers you meant some abusers and not abusers as a whole.

Hear hear Nicki

Has the title of step parent become so devalued now that anyone who starts dating a man with kids is automatically a stepmum, even if they barely see the child?

This child's mother is absolutely right to intervene, you sound out of control and your boyfriend is a spineless waste of space. Hopefully some way will be found to legally prevent you having any further contact, if it was my child you'd never get near her again.

Not rtft. But op, you need to step back and look at what you've just written. I have a dsd. She's 12 and still thumb sucks. Do I find it irritating? Of course I do. Do I say anything? Nope. It's none of my business. If her parents want her to stop they can crack on and deal with it.

Take a step back. Let her dad deal with the issue and you should concentrate on building a relationship with the child.

There's no point in defending my argument here as most of you are so determined to see me on the side of the OP, which I'm not. I'm not condoning what she did. I'm not minimising the suffering of the little girl in this case.

But children in abusive homes can and should be removed from their parents. I would not necessarily remove this girl from her parents on the basis of this one incident.

As another example, there are threads on MN where a parent has lost their rag and smacked their child, and that has been called abuse and people have said the child should be removed.

It's not always black and white, there are many complexities and layers to be explored. If this hot pepper sauce incident was the only thing to have happened to this girl and it was a one off and nothing else untoward was occurring then no, it would not be considered abuse. If it was discovered this was occurring alongside other things then that is a different story.

I would never be dismissive of abuse. I have been in an abusive relationship myself. I see this every single day of my professional life and it's appalling. But there is a massive difference between parents who are completely misguided and need steering in the right direction, and parents who are downright abusive.

In my work I see many children who are ridiculously pandered to. I often wish the parents would/could toughen up.
However, you have gone so far the other way. Your treatment of this child is horrible. Please don't look after any children again.

I mean, on the basis of this thread, if I told you all my Dad gave me a whole green chilli to eat when I was two, you would all be telling me he was abusive and should not have been around me. And that wasn't the case at all (clearly). You can't get the whole picture from one incident.

I don't believe u iama either.
You say you work with physically abused chikdren, then say you specialise In ea then dv/da? Blimey, I flipin hope not.
I don't care if I'm outed, i do work in cp as does my DH and deliberately intending to cause harm, distress or suffering IS ABUSIVE!!
It really is.

As i said iama its possible your work with the more serious abuse cases has skewed your perception of abuse and abusers. I do think it sounds like you could do with maybe some retraining or changing to another area of abuse work to remind yourself that what you are currently seeing isnt the only definition of abuse. I hope i shouldnt need to tell you that in order to stop something happening you need to understand why it is happening. Choosing to deny one very big reason for why some "milder" abuse happens can be damaging for the children in question because the cause isnt being adressed.