SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

Well off you go and eat your hat, whatever takes your fancy. Personally I think that while you were growing up developing a terribly judgemental attitude, someone should have nipped that in the bud. And as for resorting to name-calling to make a point, then that, for an adult, shows a lack of social-emotional development imo. But no doubt you think I need therapy too

Neversaypie ? you clearly haven?t read this thread properly. You suggest that I?ve gone from saying ?he?s not normal and needs help? to ?he?s a lazy git?. I?ve NEVER suggested he needs medical help or therapy, just that he needs to be eased out of hibernation.

And as for being ashamed that I?ve let him grow up being like this: again, please refer back to the thread. I?ve know him, on a part time basis, for five years. I have not brought him up, I?ve had very little input into his life. You?ll be aware that Disney Dads do not let their partners partake in any discipline, so I can?t even tell him to turn the TV off.

I completely agree with Allnew?s comments: we all have some less desirable personality traits, but this doesn?t mean we need treatment. Not everyone who gets cranky needs anger management therapy, not everyone who forgets a birthday has Alzheimer?s and just because my stepson is reluctant to engage with his peers does not mean he needs therapy.

I also agree with the poster who suggested that if this weren?t a step parenting thread, the responses would have been quite different ???

Why have YOU not taught him how to make a cup of tea before now?

Because when he's at our house, he's treated like a guest, not a member of the household. Therefore if he wants a tea or coffee, DH gets it for him.

It's interesting to note that no one seems to expect his MOTHER (who he lived with full time til 5 years ago, and part time since then) to have done any of this?

Or is it more fun to berrate the step mother ?????

oh fgs, Petal.

don't keep trying to turn this into a "stepmothers must be eeeeeeevil" thread.

yes, of course his mother should have done something too.

but she hasn't, and (as far as we know ) hasn't posted here either, and therefore is not a part of this "conversation"

just because he has an ineffectual mother, who does nothing to help - this doens't mean it is right for you and your dh to push him awa too, and do nothing to help.

talk about passing the buck.

it has been repeatedly said on this thread, that if you cared at all, you would have been working on your dh's attitude for a long while now, and not accepting this ridiculous status quo.

but you care more about protecting your "couple time" than actually helping, and everything you do is with a view to decreasing your stepson's visits, and increasing your time with your dh, without his son there.

you don't seem to care what the outcomes will be for your stepson - neither does your dh - just that you are able to book weekends away, and not bother about having to put up with the poor boy. you have even said that your dh would not want to see his own son for a week's worth of evenings.

nobody involved with this boy actually wants to spend any time with him.

Petal I can totally understand your frustration when you thought you'd made a breakthrough, but if I was you I think I'd hand back the access schedule to DH to sort out. DH did say didn't he that if DSS started to question the flexible rota that it would have to be looked at again?

I also don't see that DSS needs therapy from what you've posted.

Deep breath and detach, detach detach!

Actually, this thread is about access. I don't recall saying I wanted to reduce access, we want to maintain the amount of access, but move to a "little and often" arrangement.

Some of you "therapy brigade" posters only read threads selectively. Maybe you have learning difficulties and should see a specialist? Or an optician?

Hi SingingTunelessly - it turned out that DH has stuck to his guns, and told SS that we're sticking with flexibility. That's what we've done since I've started this particularly thread, and it's actually worked out very well for everyone. And no one has needed therapy.

or maybe, Petal, you need ot re-read what you have actually posted here on this thread.

try it.

and do the maths.

what you were suggesting to your stepson reduced his contact time.

and you have also posted that your dh "thought it would be a round of golf at the weekend, and tea on a SUnday" (or similar - can't be bothered to find the post) by now.

yep, that's not wanting to reduce contact at all, is it?

his own father wishing that he only saw him for a few hours each week, and not wanting (by your posts) to spend any more time with him than is necessary - when a poster queried whether flexibility meant that ss could come more often on the odd week, you said his father would not want that.

lovely.

what a charming, charming family you are.

this boy is 17. if I only saw my children for a few hours each week when they were 17, I would be sad about that. you are supposed to like your children, and want to spend time with them, not wish they would bugger off and leave you alone.

So what do you think is a suitable amount of time for SS to be spending with his father by now? Do you really think that DH is unreasonable to be wanting "a game of golf at the weekend and a midweek supper"? Because even if SS lived with us, I doubt he'd see much more of DH than that, due to DH's working hours.

I should add that by the time DH's daughter was 17, we hardly ever saw her, due to her boyfriend, social life and part time job. It's just natural progression. Maybe we should have sent her for therapy??

And before I get pounced on, we haven't reduced access to "golf/supper", that's simply where DH expected we'd be by now. As this wouldn't work for SS, we haven't done it.

I'd be interested to hear what you think we should do if he goes to uni - insist he stays nearby just to ensure he spends plenty of time with his father? Or if he follows in his father's footsteps and joins the forces, should we relocate to be close to the barracks? Mind you, there's always therapy .....

There seem to be a number of people completely missing the point here.

Petal FWIW I can see you're not trying to reduce access, simply make it more flexible.

At his age visits should absolutely be more flexible (a long time since if you ask me).

Perhaps if we view it differently for a moment? Say your stepson visits every other weekend from 6pm on a Friday until Sunday at 5pm, and then every Wednesday from 6pm until 7.30am Thursday. No alternatives, stuck to firmly, if Dad isn't there, so what, that's the visiting time, suck it up. To me this suggests not that he has a place he can come to and call his other home, but a place where he has to spend an allotted period of time, then and only then and he's not to be there a moment sooner or a moment longer - not very homely eh?

Flexible equates to casual and more welcoming IMO, and the only reason you're bringing the calendar into it is so that the child gets to actually spend time with his Dad when he does come, i.e. doesn't turn up unexpectedly and your DH happens not to be there so they each miss out on time together.

Just wanted to say 'I get you' and i can't really understand how this thread has wandered so far from the point.

Thank you Yosh - that's EXACTLY how it is.

Have you not been allowed to teach your stepson any life skills? Why do you treat him like a guest? He's not, he is staying in his home, his fathers home.

Bluepyjamas - this aspect was discussed at length on this thread on 10th May. Suggest you look back at the relevant posts from that date. You will see that Petal's DSS (and indeed many many stepchildren) are treated like visiting royalty, much to the chagrin of step-parents who believe it would be better if they were treated, and behaved, in a much more normal fashion during 'access' visits. Part of the whole problem is the idea of 'access visits' It creates an utterly artificial environment for everybody. You may like to pretend that it's just like the child being in my home, but when young adult is treated like a youngster and ferried from A to B on access visits, that doesn't promote normality for anybody

Then why are you with these useless fathers? Did you not notice before now that they are shit and therefore it's not a good idea to have children with them? Do you think they won't do it to your children? Are your children more important?

Oh dear god here we go again

Excuse me but I certainly did not say that my DH was 'shit'
Indeed I continue to point out that the main problem is the concept of 'access visits'. My DH wanted normality, wanted to be an equal parent to the children, but their mother refused and the courts in this country do not promote 50:50 care.

it is this, in my opinion, that is the greatest barrier to a child behaving like a part of the NRP family, and being treated as such. I actually have a lot of sympathy for NRP's as they are in a lose:lose situation most of the time.

"Do you think they won't do it to your children?" - do what exactly? Actually my DH was thrown out of his house and kept apart from his children by his philandering ex until he went to court to get access to them.

Do you go onto the long parents threads and ask all those women having problems why they had children with man who they should have known would be a 'shit' father? No, I suspect you do not

17yo's who can't make a cup of tea means either SN's or shit parents. Why would you have a child with a man who is happy with that?

Petal, sorry if this has already been touched upon but is there any sign of him getting a car and learning to drive?

My eldest SS has been driving for a few months now and it's really made a difference to the visits, we all feel far more relaxed about it all, and he seems even happier to be here under his own steam - it all makes for a more pleasant time for everyone .

Funny though, there is still a mid-week overnighter which their Mum still insists upon, we think it's daft,they think is pointless, they don't want to stay because of remembering school clothes & books etc for the next day - but she makes them do it - makes me wonder what she gets up to on that day/evening that they simply cannot stay home

Bluepyjamas do live in a very black and white world.

My perception is that 'making a cup of tea' is merely one example of Petal's DSS's unwillingness to function at a level one would expect for his age. So if she 'teaches' him to make a cup of tea, that will leave hundreds and hundreds of other everyday tasks he is unwilling to tackle.

imho, one should not need to 'teach' a 17yo how to make a cup of tea. It's an attitudinal thing. FGS, if a 17yo watched an adult once boiling a kettle and putting a teabag into a cup that would be it, learned. It's not something you 'teach'. However if the young adult's attitude is that they're not interesting in learning basic skills, then even if she 'teaches' him this one skill, he will never subsequently perform it. Equally he will claim to be 'unable' to open a can of beans, for example. Then if she teaches him that, he may claim to be unable to lay the table. If someone is not interested enough, there is simply no 'teaching' them. Attitude can't be taught.

My DSS, for example - his mother treats him like a baby, has done everything for him, including thinking. Result is he refuses to think for himself and doesn't do everyday tasks because he has become extremely lazy and dependent as a result. In the very limited time DH spends with him, he really does try his best, but it's an uphill strugge, and quite frankly a p* in the ocean compared to the 85% of the time he spends with his mother where he's wrapped in cotton wool and treated like a helpless baby.

DH asked DSS to put the beans on a few months ago, in an attempt to get DSS to know how to 'make' a simply lunch. I'll tell you - it was painful to watch. After DH having to explain each individual step of the process, he thought he'd cracked it when DSS got to the point of having the saucepan out and an open can of beans. DSS's next question - "Do I get the beans out with a spoon or a fork?". Now really, that question does not relate to a lack of knowledge. One does not need to be taught whether to use a spoon or a fork to remove beans from a can.

And the proof is in the pudding. I see everyday how DH co-parents our DS. He, like me, is teaching him independence, even at this young age. In face, embarrassingly for DSS, DS, aged 3, has grasped many basic skills that DSS has yet to demonstrate

it is perfectly possible to have "access visits" and still bring those children up properly - ie, not be the "Disney dad" which Petal always bangs on about.

there is no reason why children/teens coming on access visits to their other home (yes, it is also possible ot have a second home when coming on access visits! who'da thunk it?!) should not: participate fully in the family life; help out around the house; have responsibilities as part of that family/household.

if, as many posters on this thread who are all crying "but you don't understaaaaaaaand! you just want to blame the steo mother!" assert, there are scores of children/teens who never lift a finger, do not participate fully, cannot be bothered to be responsible members of their father's family - well, that I am afraid is down to the parenting.

and I cannot fathom why anyone would willingly put themselves into a household like that.

Rhi touched on it earlier on, yet claimed "I was only young, i didn't talk these things through" - well why the hell not?! this is a situation you all walked into, of your own volition - why didn't you question how the household was run? why didn't you take a look at how your husbands parent their children? why didn't you think about how that would impact on you in the future?

but no, far easier to blame an "access rota" than to examine yourselves and your partners, and face up to the fact that there could be some better examples of parenting.

Do you really think it's possible to change a child's whole personality, attitude towards life and way of thinking, then their PWC's way of thinking is opposite to yours, in two days a fortnight?? What a load of nonsense

erm, yes I do.

it can be done.

but not if you are not prepared to put in the hard work.