SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

allnew he sounds exactly like SS the younger, i swear he has done that exact same thing. The other day DH got him to load the dishwasher (a task he insists he does at mum's all the time so why should he do it here too.

A short while later I opened the washer for a stray spoon which had missed the load to find that he'd stacked everything face up on the prongs on the lower shelf and bunched all the cutlery on the top drawer. Now I wonder, is his mum's dishwasher that different? did he just not think it through? or is he some evil genius trying to get out of ever doing it again?

It's got nothing to do with hard work. My stepchildren life under a dictatorship, and without wanting to exagerrate, DSS1's behaviour, to me, is almost like what you'd expect from someone who has fallen in with a cult. Luckily with DSS2 it's much easier and his different personality compared to DSS1's means that he does indeed act like one of the family when at our house. And hence, everything is very normal with DSS2 around. DSS1, however, wanders around seeking the next instruction of what to do next. And I've watched DH, and participated in, trying to change this for 8 years. But fact is, his mother, who has spends 85% of his time with, has controlled his life to such an extent that any reversal of this is quite simply impossible.

The only way I could see of any change whatsoever, would be to completely remove him from her control for a period of time. However that is not going to happen.

or give him the tools to help himself.

much like posters have suggested Petal do with her ss.

but this just get shot down, with lots of hysterical giggling and snorting about "therapy"

they're not my kids.

but I'd be doing everything in my power to help them if they were. not leaving them helpless.

ok, excuse me while I just call the therapist. Obviously his unwillingness to decide whether to take beans out of a can with a fork or a spoon is a psychological problem.

Beans, fork and spoon. Tools - Brain?

oh, there you go.

back to derision.

because of course, no one has ever benefitted from therapy

but no, much easier to snort and giggle than to actually help these children.

So what exactly do you suggest then? It's very easy to call fathers names, accuse them of being shit and the SM as not being interested, but what have you actually suggested by way of actual practical advice?

Poor kids.

you have had plenty of advice on this thread.

but you choose to ignore it, as does Petal, and prefer instead to laugh.

posters who have been there, done that - been in (both) your positions but turned it around. posters who have experience of working with troubled teens, posters who have teens of their own.

but none of it has been good enough.

because it has all been hard to hear.

I get that.

But why would I waste time typing out any more advice? for you to sneer at, and claim it is all "different" in you house, and that I don't understand?

Actually nobody has given my any advice except that my BIL is apparently a 'troglodyte', my friend who is in the army must be unhappy and had no choices in life.

I suggest you read the thread again, then.

you have clearly missed half of it out in your rush to snigger at other posters' suggestions.

Yawn - actually I have gatecrashed Petal's thread. Some posters have suggested that Petal's DSS, in particular, needs therapy. I wasn't aware that half of the thread was devoted to giving me advice on DSS1. Maybe I have reading difficulties I'm not aware of though.
p.s. was someone calling my BIL a 'troglodyte' supposed to be a 'suggestion' for advice, do you think? Really?

'Actually, this thread is about access. '

Well now we have really got to the bottom of it, finally. It seems Petal has been blowing smoke in our eyes all this time, pretending to be concerned about the boy's complete lack of friends or a social life or enthusiasm or plans for his future -- Petal, when you yourself introduced those details into your thread, you can't blame others who may have some concern for this boy from 'misreading' what you have written. Pardon us for thinking you might have worries about your stepson. Usually when someone mentions problems a child is having it is in order to express concern or elicit advice. Again, my mistake for misreading it this way when what it was was a criticism of the boy's mother and of the boy himself.

The rearranging of the rota has nothing to do with helping the boy come out of his shell and become more independent. The pretence of concern for the DSS's problems has been dropped. This explains the resistance to the idea of therapy or counselling for the DSS. All is now clear.

You can't solve emotional problems with a calendar and pencil, as you will find out when this young man is still hanging around at age 35, interfering with your couple time, but I am glad you have clarified that this is not what you are concerned about anyway.

'Do you really think it's possible to change a child's whole personality, attitude towards life and way of thinking, then their PWC's way of thinking is opposite to yours, in two days a fortnight?? What a load of nonsense'

That's where therapy comes in, a session once a week for a while with a counsellor, maybe some CBT, to remove the child completely from the characters and environment where the unhealthy dynamic is taking place and expose the child to another set of expectations, with a neutral third party who is not caught up in the web of family relationships having a greater possibility of being listened to and better able to hear what the child is saying about his life. It also allows the child to be professionally assessed for self-esteem, self-image, learned dependence or depression issues or issues related to living arrangements.

You are right, Allnew, that this is a matter of changing a child's whole personality, attitude towards life and way of thinking. Obviously not something that can be tackled with just a pencil and calendar (not that that the boy's problems are Petals's real concern here anyway).

Can I start by saying how sad it is that a step son is made to feel like a visitor in his own fathers house . I have a 17 year old dss myself and because of his age , social life etc he comes to us as often as he likes with no set times/days , this may mean he has to make his own way here (Kent to bucks) but he is happy with that and it makes him feel very grown up.

Op it sounds like you don't really consider your stepson as part of the family and would be interested to know how you feel he sees you ?

Dinosaurhunter that is what petal wants! No set times or days - making his own way there! It is the rigidity of the rota that makes it seem as though he is a visitor. I have grown up children and they visit me and DH whenever they want to. They come in and put the kettle on, make themselves at home. That is how it should be. This boy is 17!!! he is not a child

I'm sorry but I don't believe if he came less that he would feel less like a visitor , we would love to see our son more and always nag him to come and stay , forgive me if I'm wrong but the op doesn't give the impression that she Really has the boys best interests at heart , and that's just my opinion.

"That's where therapy comes in, a session once a week for a while with a counsellor, maybe some CBT, to remove the child completely from the characters and environment where the unhealthy dynamic is taking place and expose the child to another set of expectations, with a neutral third party who is not caught up in the web of family relationships having a greater possibility of being listened to and better able to hear what the child is saying about his life. It also allows the child to be professionally assessed for self-esteem, self-image, learned dependence or depression issues or issues related to living arrangements. "

However in arranging any such session, that would have to be done by taking the 'child', against his own will (his will is the will of his mother in this case, she tells him what his opinion is and then he repeats that verbatim), against the will of the PWC, and subjecting him to a therapist who he doesn't want to talk to (all the while when he shouldn't even be in DH's care, as PWC does not allow access mid-week). It is not possible to 'remove the child completely from the characterss and environment where the unhealthy dynamic is taking place', because the courts have sanctioned the child's mother to have utter control over the child's whereabouts.

If you're concerned enough, you can go through the courts and have them order therapy, and any therapist worth his or her salt will find a way to get a teenager talking about himself or herself.

If you're concerned enough. If all you want to do is wring your hands and play powerless victim, your hands tied by the child's unreasonable mother and by the courts, then go ahead and do that. In Petal's case, she and her DH have let a situation develop for seven years and are now wondering how to fix it without going to too much trouble. They will reap what they sow.

I'm concerned about the control exerted on him by his mother, but that's not the same as believing he needs therapy. If, for example, I saw a wife or husband in a controlling relationship with their spouse, which was having a negative effect on them, my advice would be for them to leave the relationship, and the best support imo would be to help them through that process. However, explaining to a child that he is in a controlling relationship with his mother (which he is not aware of and would not have the maturity to understand if he was made aware), and then persuading him to leave it, is quite, quite another matter (and not appropriate imo).

Ths is a woman who was physically abusive towards my DH. She is not physically abusive towards the chidlren, but her emotional forms of control over them appear to have no bounds. I often read the threads on here about people who have lived with narcissistic parents. I also read widely about the effects of controlling parents. Unfortunately, those character traits are exacerbated when the controlling parent is given 100% control, whereas in another case, their control over the children's day to day lives might be 'tempered' by the presence of a less-controlling parent

Mathanxiety - your posts are ridiculous. How would I get SS to therapy each week, without either of his parents knowing? The poster who mentioned 'kidnap' wasn't too far from the truth.

And do you really think I'm likely to get a court order to 'force' therapy? You've been watching too much Jeremy Kyle.

Petal, the advice you have been given over and over on this thread is to work on getting your dh to accept his son's issues.

the kidnap post was ridiculous.

no one has ever suggested taking a child to therapy against both parents' wishes. and in that particular case, the poster was assuming that the therapy had to be midweek, and so not at a contact time.

honestly, you do all come across as more interested in bleating about why you cannot help these children, rather than concentrating on how you can go about doing so.

Excuse me - but people HAVE suggested, on this thread, that I get SS to therapy without the knowledge of either of his parents. It's also been suggested that I could obtain a court order to ensure that the therapy takes place.

SS wouldn't want to go to therapy, , so you've got the logistical problem of taking a 6ft teenager somewhere against his will, and assuming he won't tell either of his parents.

And one of the more sensible posters pointed out that the only way to get someone to go somewhere against their will, is to kidnap them!!! Yes, she was being flippant, but she had a point!!

Even if, hypothetically, I decided to try and obtain a court order to force therapy, SS would be 18 by the time it got anywhere near courtroom, in which case surely he's legally able to make his own decisions?

This is all getting far too like Ophrah Winfrey.

Find the post, Petal, where someone has suggested that you, as a step parent take your ss to therapy against the wishes of both his parents.

go on. find it. it's not there.

in the meantime, carry on blustering about why you cannot help this child. it was never you intention, really, was it?

I take it form your last post that once he reaches 18, you are going to wash your hands of him and say "well, he's an adult now - it's all up to him"?

nice.

oh, and allnew's suggestion re: kidnap was not a sensible one.

there had been no suggestion that her dh should take the stepchildren in non-contact time.
she just wanted to inflame the situation, and try to play a trump card.

it didn't work, because it was non-sensical.

there are plenty of opportunities to help non-resident children at weekends, if you care to try.

you may have to seek them out, and they may not be the obvious ways. but they are there, if you can be bothered to find them.

alittlemouse - If DH was to take DSS anywhere outside of the allotted time, that would involve finding DSS at a place other than his home (because DSS's mother would not let DSS go anywhere with DH outside of the allotted time). The only place DSS goes without his mother is to and from school. So the only way for DH to 'access' DSS outside of a Sat or a Sun would be to arrive on DSS's walk to school route and ask/tell him to get into the car. DSS is so frightened of his mother that he would refuse, on the basis that she would cause world war III. Yes, I was being flippant about kidnap, but it's not far from the truth.