SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

I think the issue that Petal02 is raising is the breaking of a rota so that 'change' is introduced, rather than a specific reduction/increase of nights.

It's seems to me to be a developmental/parenting issue. Most teens would be taking the approach that Petal is suggesting naturally but because her DSS is not forthcoming she is having to move it along. At 17 he should start to manage his time with his dad, balance it with his friends and other commitments but that isn't happening.

Petal, I think you need to handle this as a development issue - what does the rota give him? Perhaps it's that he doesn't have to think, or perhaps he's afraid to make a change as he then takes responsibility? Does he fear conflict between your DH & the ex without a rota? How does he handle decision making in other areas of his life like choosing A levels?

When he pushes back I think you should just gently let him know that as he approaches adulthood he can start to make decisions himself, he might feel scared but it's a good place to start practising. Fear of change seems to be the issue, most teens crave the ability to make choices, indeed parents often have to hold them back, but your DSS has the opposite problem.

Silverfrog ? you suggest I seek flexibility for myself, but am not prepared to give any. However as I?ve said before, I?m not really bothered what configuration the visits take, just so long as we don?t have a pattern that?s set in stone. I really didn?t anticipate being in this position with a school leaver.

I don?t think that either DH or SS think that SS has two homes; he lives with his Mum in Town A, then comes to stay with his Dad in Town B. For what it?s worth, I don?t think DH would want a whole week of SS; he also finds it very intense and quite draining (rightly or wrongly so). As RhiRhi pointed out, we need our ?couple? time. And thankfully DH is quite protective of that.

An earlier poster suggested we should support him through the changes: apologies, but how does one support a young adult when a Tues changes to a Weds? And should support really be needed?? Should we offer him a support package if we move the patio doors or re-fit the bathroom??? We?ll be changing our car next year, do we offer him counselling???? Please remember he?s not 6.

Emjanedel ? if the rota changes for any reason, at SS/ex?s request, then SS copes just fine. To be honest, he seems to handle change far better than DH realises.

I am very grateful (and relieved) however that so many posters understand where I?m coming from, and understand why I feel frustrated.

I think that for people who don't have to live their life to a calendar designed by someone else (whether that be a judge or the young adult's parents many years ago when they were a young child), then they have no way of comprehending how restricting that is.

The thought of being able to suggest something to do on a weekend to DH without him asking "Is that a boy's weekend or our weekend?) - Aarggh. Basically that question in itself acknowledges that we only actualy 'have' 1 weekend in every 2 to do anything with

Absolutely. And whilst I'd find it easier to comprehend if SS were seven or eight or nine ...... it just seems really silly now. As an earlier poster commented, he's parented as if he's a young child, and we have to arrange our lives accordingly.

If we were his bio parents, I assume we'd just live our lives and SS would fit in around us, but when it's a step-family, the reverse applies.

have u asked him his plans for his immediate future ie what his plans are over the hols. when you posted on another thread you said you were sitting with the calender and dh was elsewhere. isn't it an idea to sit down the three of you and each put forward your expectations of what happens next. he is far too old for it to be seen as contact more has him developing his relationship with his dad. i like the idea of dad setting up a hobby or habit they can get in to.

I think the ?me and SS sitting down with calendar? idea came about when SS requested to swap a weekend at the beginning of April. DH and I had a few things in the diary already that month, including going away over Easter, I knew the dates better than DH did, so I worked out some times for SS to visit, that didn?t clash with anything. This worked well, and everyone was happy.

To be fair to DH, he knows that I know our schedule far better than he does (women are far better with dates and are more likely to write things on a calendar) and on the grounds of my earlier success, he let me continue. I was quite happy with this, and there was no argument with SS until yesterday. Probably because, in his eyes, there?s no longer any need to be ?off rota? for the time being.

If DH has any tricky discussions with SS, he prefers to have them in private. I used to think it was because DH said one thing to me, and something different to SS, but to be fair I?ve realised that?s not the case (or doesn?t seem to be). I think DH will be far more ?pink and fluffy? with SS than I would; I would certainly be gentle with him, but I wouldn?t pander to the extent that DH does. I honestly thought that DH?s private chat with SS yesterday would result in DH backing down, but apparently not.

DH has definitely told SS he needs to get a job or some voluntary work over the summer (I?ve been within earshot when these conversations have taken place) and SS is not too keen. I honestly think he can?t be bothered. Of course, whilst DH can nudge him in the right direction, he can?t physically make him seek or undertake work ???..

I think I mentioned in an earlier post, that DH suggested that SS ?gives flexibility a try? and that if he finds it isn?t working, then we can talk about it again. However, going back to the rota is unthinkable. We?d be stuck with it forever if that happened.

I should add that DH has reacted better to all this then I ever imagined. I know he?s deeply uncomfortable about any sort of conflict with SS, but he has backed me up on this issue.

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I have lived my life to a calendar for the last 11 years. we get a degree of flexibility now, as my step children are at university.

but we are still tied to the "contact" periods as set out in the consent order - the summer holiday, the times over Christmas and Easter, etc. what is now more flexible is the weekend access/one night midweek, as they cannot get to us every weekend (and, in fact, even that had to be prompted - dsd was expecting exactly that, and that we would either pay her train fare each weekend, or go to collect her. dsd was 20 when she started university)

I have lived this life, I do know how it feels.

but Petal, I htink you are wrong in that if your ss was you biological child, you and dh woudl be able to be more flexible - I think your ss issues go way deeper than having been babied. he clealry needs some help.

my (and dh's) biological children have needy issues - anxiety is very high in both of them, and they cannot countenance change in routines - we have to live with this. we do what we can to modify it, sure, but Rome was not built overnight.

I htink it is fantastic that yuor ss managed the flexibility he did - you had somehting booked, and he changed his access hours to suit. brilliant compromise.

but he is now showing he cannto carry on this way - mabe he is feelign the loss of the extra tme, maybe he cannot cope with the uncertainty of it all. but somehtign is making him anxious, and yes, he should as a 17 year old be able ot cope with this - but he can't. pushing won't make him any more able to cope. nor will not compromising. try suggesting you go back to the rota for the next couple of weekeneds while you work out what happens next - it isn't a total capitulaiton, but gives you all time to sit down with that calendar.

some people like routine and habit - maybe your ss is feelign uncomfortable with not being able to set up any kind of routine at all. lots of people don't "do" spontaneous. it can be frustrating, but it takes all sorts. mayeb he feels he cannot suggest a day because he doesn't know what your plans are?

have you tried making a few tentative plans, so at least when you sit down, there is a reason for the flexibility being needed? he might just think you are being silly insisting on this flexibility when there isno need for it (ie no plans which would otherwise change the rota)

I was trying to spell out HE IS 17 but it didnt work . hope you enjoyed your Easter break . Have you booked May day weekend away yet .

Silver - you say 'it's fantastic my SS managed the way he did when we swapped weekends'. Are you being sarcastic? Firstly, he approached US about a swap due to his mothers plans, and secondly we swap weekends a couple of times a year due to holidays etc, and he has managed fine. You make it sound like a real accomplishment that he managed some minor changes in routine. During the last five years, his mother has had two new babies, and he coped with that too. I suppose you will now suggest that we should stick to the access rota forever, just to counteract the changes he's had elsewhere?

Have you seriously got step children at uni who do access visits? Surely any access orders made by the court or consent order finish on the child's 16th birthday?

What sort of adults are we producing????

petal my heart also sank when i saw your post i will face this situation in a few years maybe sooner with a Dp who thinks that DSD likes routine/is fragile etc etc you gave me such hope that flexible access can be achieved with tact and thought, the thought of my DSD coming for access/sleep over weekends at 16/17 or older to sit in her bedroom makes my heart sink children should be encouraged to fly and socialise with their own age groups with flexability to spend ad hoc time with parents as they do when both parents are together I hardly see mine they are independent of me as it should be, do DP ever let their children grow up when in a NRP situation? i dont think so, watching with interest in how things go/how you handle life

Petal, I think it's very worrying that you refuse to agree your stepson has two homes. He's not a guest in your house, he's a family member and has just as much right to be there as anyone else.

You can't insist he acts like other 17yos - he is an individual with individual needs. He seems to have high anxiety levels, from what you say. Maybe that's to do with his parents' divorce. Maybe he's OK with changes at his mother's and not at yours because he feels less secure with you - especially as you don't consider your house his home.

I think you are expecting a lot from an anxious 17yo. You can't just dictate that things will be the way you've decided them to be. He's not a toddler. You need to negotiate a situation that suits all of you, not just impose what you want.

Petal - no, no sarcasm. nd yes, I think it was a big step.

him approaching you re: a swap is not the same.

you were very worried about how he woudl take it - I remember your threads (wel, more accurately, your dh was worried). and your ss coped, and coped well. and even followed it through for a couple of weeks.

this is all good progress.

just because it has stalled a little now, does not negate the rpogress that was made.

and I agree with edam - it is desperately sad and worrying that neither you nor your dh think your house is ss's home too. I feel for the boy, I really do.

All this is a mystery to me - when I was a child, we lived with Mum and visited Dad. And none of this two homes/overnighting stuff. I had a great relationship with him til the day he died. Separated families seem far too intense these days. I thought that having come from a happy background, albeit with separated parents, would equip me for stepparenting. But obviously not.

There was a thread recently where a poster made a good point (might have been redhen). Basically there are generally 2 sorts of scenarios for DSCs:

1. When at the NRP's house, the children fully integrate into the family. They still partake in their own external interests, go out with friends, etc etc, share in the housework, etc etc. spend time along when adults are busy.

OR

1. When at the NRP's house, the children expect to be entertained 24/7. Reality is mainly suspended for the duration, as they cut contact with their main lives and in some cases 'cling' to the NRP. They see themselves (and are often treated by the NRP) as visiting guests, who should be treated as such.

My observation is that in my case, my DSCs fall into scenario 2. I think Petal's DSS does as well. In this case, then it is correct to say that the NRP's house is not their 'home', because that simply does not reflect the situation. In scenario 1 of course, which is hugely preferable, then the child clearly indeed have 2 'homes'

I knew it'd be you petal when I saw the title. How frustrating for you!

Will read whole thread later but what leaps out is - Why is he so infantilised? What's his mum like?

Petal,

I think your DSS may have picked up on your natural feelings that in reality life is a bit easier when he isn't around. I'm not having a go at you, but I think he knows you would prefer him to out and about rather than glued to your side. He is insecure and it's making him cling on more and more.

The only way I think you can get round this is to UP the contact for a good few months at least, to make him realise that flexibility doesn't mean less, that his father isn't looking to "dump him" now he's grown up and that he can still feel secure in his Dad's love.

allnew, yes I think it was me that made that observation and I think so many times the NRP pretends that DSC live a "normal" life when they are with them, when in reality it is a "disney" life they are living.

We took DSD in our local museum at the weekend as we just happened to be walking past and fancied a look. DSD moaned constantly from before we walked in to after we walked out. I suddenly realised she NEVER has to do anything she doesn't want to do because both parents suspend real life when the kids are around and do the "boring adult" stuff when the children are with the other parent. It made me sad to feel that my step daughter hasn't been taught to deal with boredom and at the age of 8 thinks that everything we do should only be what she wants to do!

redhen - that's an interesting point you make about boredom
My DSS1 is exactly the same. DH had to go out for a few hours the other weekend and DSS1 genuinely did not have a single idea about how he might spend the afternoon without being guided (he is 15).
We went to the beach one day last summer and literally 2 mins after we had sat down he said to dad "what do I do now?"
If he is in his mother's house and she goes out, he phones DH asking him what to do because he is bored

Allnew/Redhen ? thanks so much for your insightful comments.

We do indeed have Scenario Two when SS is with us; reality is suspended and he?s treated like a guest. He never does any chores or housework, I doubt it would ever enter DH?s head to ask him to share any chores, and even if he did, SS doesn?t have any practical skills. DH recently taught him how to make tea and coffee ? and whilst it was an amusing hour for all concerned, it gives a good example of how he?s so lacking in life skills.

So as far as we?re all concerned, he lives with his mother, and visits us. I think it?s always been viewed like that, and there?s no ill-intent behind that sentiment.

DH and I were discussing access again last night. Thankfully we?re both singing from the same hymn sheet. We?re not seeking to reduce access, simply to go for a flexible ?little and often? approach. Over the last four weeks, while both the ex and me/DH have been on our respective hols, there?s been no choice but to be flexible, and it?s worked really well,

So this coming week ? SS will have a midweek night with us on Weds. If he wants to play golf with DH on Saturday morning, then that?s fine, or he could come and have a fish and chip supper with us on Friday night, and we?ll take him home after tea.

Then the following week he will still be offered a midweek night (either Tues or Weds) and then he can come to us at the weekend, Saturday morning til Sunday evening. Neither me nor DH want weekends that run from Thurs-Sunday, but are happy for ad-hoc visits at other times.

We?re only making plans for a fortnight at a time, and the next fortnight?s arrangements will probably be slightly different. SS is welcome to have input into these arrangements. Although I can guarantee he?ll just want the rota.

I think the problem here is that the DSS percieves the changes as you wanting to be rid of him. Your posts rather give the impression that you don't like him much, Petal, and this is probably at the root of the problem, you have got into this vicious circle of you feeling contemtuous and irritated with him because he is clingy and needy, and he, being not much more than a child, feels this but doesn't understand that becoming clingier and needier is only going to make you despise him more. You're the adult here: could you not treat him gently and let him have what he wants just for a little while while you work on building up his self esteeem?

I actually get on quite well with him. He's extremely intelligent, and has a very dry sense of humour. I'm told by DH's friends/relatives that SS has always been very withdrawn and clingy, it's just the way he is.

PS - as regards treating him gently and letting him have what he wants for a while longer ....... I've been with DH for nearly 6 years, and in all that time SS has been treated like a baby. How much longer do you propose we go on giving him exactly what he wants, and behaving as though he's 8?

I get this is about the routine etc, but an almost 17 year old who can't cope with change, has no friends or hobbies, and doesn't leave the house except for school...wow, that just screams bigger problems.

I also agree that your attitude to him sounds very odd. His fathers home is not his home, he is not welcome their when his father is not home, he is not wanted any more than a few days per week as he is draining....if you think he doesn't know you see him that way, I'd suggest you are wrong.

So what do you suggest we do? Indulge his sensitivities for ever, or encourage him to be a little more independent? Otherwise he's going to get one hell of a shock if he goes to uni.