SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

so, why can't you help him on a Sat/Sun?

have you actually tried to find any outside help in those times?

or have you assumed that it doesn't exist?

don't hide behind a strict access rota (I can read, you know - you stated this further down the thread too.) - you are not the only person to have one of those in place. but you are one of the few who is using it to your advantage in maintaining a wholly unsatisfactory status quo.

And actually, DSSs mother also controls what goes on what happens during 'access' visits. Last week, for example, DSS was not 'allowed' to visit because he has exams coming up next month. Sometimes they're not allowed to visit because she is visiting friends at the other end of the country, and she tells them it is more important to see her old friends than to see their father, because they see him every other weekend anyway. DSS1 then repeats this stuff verbatim because as sure as night follows day, he has become entrenched in the belief that everything his mother says is true.

again, no-one on this thread ever suggested breaking contact times, or deliberately breaking the terms of a contact agreement - this is all in your head.

big challenges like controlling exes need creative solutions - so get thinking, instead of dismissing everything that is suggested. there has been more than one poster who has said "I have been there" - but neither of you have actually asked any pertinent questions of them.

you have just jeered and sneered, and shown your reluctance to actually do anything about these situations.

firs tof all it is contact time, then it is age, then it is your partners attitudes, then back to contact time - you just go around in circles, bringing up the same old problems, which plenty of other people have to deal with too.

'help him' to do what exactly? What do you think he needs 'help' with?

x-posts - and again, you think this kind of behaviour is news?

you are not the only one who has to put up with it.

but it does not mean that you cannot help your stepchildren.

all I am seeing is a list of excuses.

and that is sad.

I'll ask you again - what do you think DSS needs 'help' with?

Taking him to therapy on a Sat/Sun is just the same as doing it on a week day: I'd still have to take him against his will, without either DH or his ex noticing ...........

This is turning into a comedy thread. Maybe I could hypnotise him with my necklace, or knock him out with some ether, roll him into a old carpet, and put him in the boot of my car?

well, tbh - if you don't think he needs any help, then he clearly isn't going to get any.

read back your posts, and this thread.

if you cannot see why there have ben several posters who think your ss, and Petal's need help - well, the problem is bigger than it first appeared.

have you found that post yet, Petal? the one that suggested you take him on your own, against both parents' wishes?

thought not.

so why keep going on about it?

why twist everything around, and laugh at suggestions that were never made?

why keep trying to inflame the situation with talk of kidnap?

because it is easier than actually trying to help.

Allnew - I don't think either of our stepsons need professional help, we just seem to have been hit-on by some American-sounding do-gooders.

Let's all sit round in a big circle and talk about our 'issues' !!!

Littlemouse - I don't have time to trawl the whole thread, but it's been suggested several times that I could take SS to therapy, without his parents knowing. And it was that suggestion which prompted the "kidnap" comment.

This is what I wrote:

• Very 'young' indeed for his age
• No initiative whatsoever
• Unable and completely unwilling to make any decisions. In fact I don't think he has even realised he could actually make a decision if he so wanted
• Doesn't spend any time with friends outside of school
• Doesn't partake in activities which are arranged by his mother and to which he is driven to and fro by his mother/father
• Clingy to DH in the extreme
• Unable to spend up to a couple of hours on his own without adult guidance

All of these things, imo, are related actually to initiative. Something his mother has quashed and actively persisted in stamping out since he was born. If his develops initiative, this poses a direct threat to her ability to control - and anybody familiar with a narcissist knows that losing control is something they will do anything to prevent.

So what, out of the above, do you think I can 'help' him with? We actively encourage him to do all the things I say above that he doesn't do. Try to get him to call friends, invite them round. Encourage him to think of what he wants to do. Try to develop initiative, think outside of the narrow boundaries his mother has set. Try to get him to think of things to do rather than be 'bored' all the time. We've tried these things, all of them, consistently, for 8 years. DH's family has also tried. Everybody, except the person who has 100% control over his life, wants him to develop initiative. But initiative isn't something you can teach.

I beg to differ, allnew.

initiative is something you can teach - we have had to do so with dd1, for various reasons.

it take stime, and it takes a LOT of patiience, btu it can be done.

Petal - iirc, the "kidnap" comment was nothing to do with stepchildren being taken to therapy without either parents' consent -but more ot do with allnew trying to play contact agreement TopTrumps - ie, if we try to do this, dh's ex will conside rit kidnap.

when no on ehad suggested she try to do it outside of allotted time at all 0 another made up suggestion.

And how much time do you get to spend with DD1, silverfrog?

And did you DD1's main carer spend most of DD's waking hours actively persuading her not to have initiative?

obviously more time than you spend with your stepchildren, allnew.

but hten it also take sher about a million repitions more than an NT child to learn anything at all.

we have also (as I have said time and again) managed ot help out dsd, who has considerably more issues than your ss. again, with a narcissistic ex, who controls everyhitng, takes dh to court at the drop of a hat, spreads ridiculous lies about us etc.

honestly, isn't it time you stopped the "oh but it's harder for us because of X"?

more hiding and excuses.

of course I didn't - but our starting point was virtually catatonic, if you must know.

she was completely unable to do a single thing for herself. at all. furhter than you could ever imagine, i would hazard a guess.

we were starting from having to teach her to be interested in anythign at all. not just initiative.

whilst being hampered every step of the way by an obstructive health care system, and education system who did their best to undo all the good work.

If you'd read my post above, you would see that we have done, are doing, and will continue to do, everything we can. I have not used anything as a barrier to doing the best we can in the circumstances. Our conscience is clear. The fact that DSS continues to display a lack of initiative is, however, a fact.

Interestingly, just on a finer point, the traits you illustrate on behalf of your DSD's mother are focused on things she does to annoy your DH/you. Does she deliberately inflict damage on her child?

I think part of the problem, silverfrog, is that you're confusing some of the issues you've had with DSD, assuming that my DSS has similar issues but to a lesser degree, and then are wondering why I haven't taken similar steps to you.

I am well aware of what issues DSS has. I have read widely on the subject and taken a lot of advice. DH are completely joined up on this, and so all we can. If anyone is trying to play Toptrumps it is you - trying to say why I haven't done as well as you have, or whatever. All situations are different

This is getting crazy - Petal IS trying to help her SS by introducing a more flexible and age-appropriated access timetable. He is reluctant to change because he is used to having all his decisions made for him and then being transported to wherever he is timetabled to be.
He has become lazy and unwilling to make any decisions or take any action himself.
Given the opportunity many teenagers would live this kind of self-absorbed, apathetic existence as they like an easy life.
Therapy is not needed - petal was trying to GENTLY adjust the schedule - involving her SS in the process. This hasn't worked so I would now suggest what he really needed all along which is a good kick up the backside (a metaphorical one before I get hit with the Myra Hindley tag too!)

Good post glasscompletelybroken.

To answer (one?) of Petal's original questions, when my Dsc were 16 there was still the access rota in place which for us was every other weekend Friday-Sunday/Monday but all parties were flexible on this. There tended to be events sometimes in the evenings during the week that DH then attended with the Dsc.

Game of golf and a midweek dinner. Are you kidding me? That's the comtact you have with a 40year old son with a job and family of his own. You and dh are living in la la land if you think its appropriate for a 17 year old. Sounds to me as if your DH is just keen to avoid any real parenting, you are both happy to see as little of the SS as possible, and you are all responsible for his present behavious. Poor boy.

When he's 18, you don't have to see him any more either, so that solves your problem, doesn't it? Why not just sit it out for another few months?

Why did you sprinkle your posts so liberally with concern for this boy, descriptions of his problems and references to what your DH's friends think about him too, when you actually don't care about him at all?

LOL at the thoughts of kidnapping the lad and stuffing him into a car and hauling him into a counsellor's office, in the face of fierce opposition from his father and mother. You are quite happy to believe that you can force a boy who is over 6' tall to do things your way wrt changing the rota after all, even though his mother will presumably object, he himself has strenuously objected, and his father is sitting on the fence, running with the hare and chasing with the hound by the looks of things.

If your DH is the one standing in the way of tackling this boy's problems, then your DH is the problem and he has been the problem all the time. Your frustration at the boy is misdirected anger with your DH. He is a terrible father and his DS is the one who will pay the price. Lucky for you, it won't be a problem you will have to deal with in a few months. The boy will still be paying for all this passive aggression, taking the path of least resistance and blaming everyone else for what is happening when he is 35.

You have ruled out every single constructive suggestion made on this thread. What are you going to do about whatever problem you think you are dealing with, and why did you post in the first place?

What a surprise-it's the Father who is the NRPs fault.

This thread has some serious projecting on it.

pmsl at mathanxiety summing up of the situation - petal is uncaring, her DH is a terrible father and DSS is in need of therapy!

Ever thought of working for the Diplomatic Service???

I mean Reeeeaaaaaally...