SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

The teachers who see him every day are in all probability not privy to the information Petals has given here.

It is perfectly possible he is seen as a quiet unassuming lad at school - with no behavioural reason for looking further, why would they assume otherwise? Schools are there to educate, nothing else.

Rhirhi - no therapy. Dsd's mum would not countenance (and therapy, in the sense o think you mean, ie counselling not always needed or appropriate in any case). No intervention either - not allowed. I really have been there and done that.

Regardless, dsd has had help. and is now doing well.

Yes, dh is now inside - which is why Judy about everyone has been saying petals first port of call is to get her dh to step up and actually start parenting this poor boy.

Or maybe petals SS behaves like a 'normal' teenager at school and there really is no MH issues he may just be young for his age due to disney parenting.

Look at the childish brats on TV that have turned out that way[for example my super sweet 16 - which i honestly don't watch just had the misfortune of seeing] due to them being constantly pandered to and never having to grow up and do things for themselves.

Christ if i had everything done for me and had a rota for where i had to be and when i'd probably be quiet too as i wouldn't have to talk to anyone to sort things out for myself which is a basic life skill. Petals SS has probably never had to phone up regarding paying a bill or something because i'm sure his DAD has always done it for him.

But they have friends to invite to their grotesque parties, don't they, those spoiled 16 year old brats?

And really, how many teenagers deal with paying bills?

rhirhi, I would just ask that you read what Petal has posted about her ss. all of it.

about how she has herself suspected that all may not be ok, but her dh dismisses it. how she fears ehr ss will be at home forever, because he has no friends, outside interests, and nonmotivation to do anythign but sit and look at 4 walls until his father comes and organises somehting.

about how he clings physically to his father - she has, before, likened him to a lovesick teenager, and said it makes her uncomfortable (the level of physical closeness)

about how he is so scared of changing a routine.

read it all back again - does that, in any way, fall into your usual "typical" teen? we are not talking simple teen laziness here, or teen brattishness.

read it all back, and open your mind to the possibility that there might be somehting wrong - petal has done so, and done so on previous threads too, but then the "oh yes, people always want to blame the stepmthers" club turns up, and she shrinks back to her position of comfort - that she is right, that if she can just shift her ss out, all will be ok.

well it probably won't.

he is not going to magically sort all this out on hs own overnight, and pushing him out of the door, and cuttign down onhis access time (which is exactly what petal has doen by introducing this "flexible" system - by her own admission her dh finds it such hard work to be with his son that he woudl not want a week's worth of evenigs to happen - and this sounds like a "normal" family to you?!) will not make it happen either.

it just reads as though all petal wants to do is be rid, tbh. not be involved. not bother to sort it out.

Rhi, you are spot-on when you describe how SS has turned down invitations cos he had to go to his Dads, his mother was always very strict about despatching him to us like clock work. So yes, I expect the invitations dried up, leaving him with nothing to do outside school, meaning he's very pleased to go to his Dads, just for a change of scene.

So really, access visits have taken the place of a fledgling social life. Thank you for accurately describing the situation.

petal - is he with you every weekend?

because if he isn't, then he woudl have time to make arrangements while at his mother's. and according to your previous posts on this, he doesn't.

DSS refuses to do anything 'normal' on an access weekend that isn't organised for him and clings to DH (including actually following DH into the kitchen when DH goes to boil the kettle, for example). I doubt very much that Petal's DSS and my DSS are so absolutely unusual among DSCs treated in this coseted way that have become as they now are.

My DSS has really become institutionalised by the strict access rota, imo. Some people simply love that level of control someone/something else has over their lives. I knew someone who had been to a strict boarding school and when he left was at a complete loss and basically floundered until he decided to join the army as a replacement form of strict rules and regimented way of life. Did he have a mental problem - no, he was a great guy. Had he become institutionalised at an early age and because of that and a mixture of his existing personality - yes, definitely. Was he in crisis? - no. Did he need therapy?- no.

The DSs described as clingy and institutionalised probably do need therapy. Your opinion that they don't and that they are fine and all is dandy in their lives may well be disproved.

My own DCs are forced to adhere to a strict rota and have not become in any way institutionalised or clingy as a result. In fact, they are the opposite. They would greatly prefer not to have the rota. A child who turns down invitations to socialise with peers to the point here all he has in his life is his relationship with his father and mother has a big problem. ANd there is a cluster of other problems too.

Again, I cannot understand the resistance to therapy. Do you think it would do some harm to this boy, OP? Do you have some prejudice about mental or emotional ill health or do you fear that your own relationship would be scrutinised to an extent you are not comfortable with if the boy was to start therapy? What is it about therapy that you fear?

Hurray for the army -- how lucky for the young man you mentioned Allnew, that he never had to face his issues and get over them in a way that would have left him with choices in his life. Are you seriously suggesting that this is a healthy option for dealing with problems?

What makes you think he didn't have choices? He did have a choice, and chose to join the army. Just because that doesn't fit in with your idea of what is ideal does not mean that wasn't best for him.

My DSS is institurionalised because that is how his mother likes to rear them. 100% control. She has NPD and is a control freak. However because she is not out of her face on drugs and is not physically violent, no judge would ever take the children from her control. No amount of therapy would overcome the hourly and daily effect her control has over their lives and personalities. Few 15yo's would have a personality strong enough to stand up to an extremely dominating woman who has control over their life, with or without therapy.

I think you mentioned that you sort out days etc with him a fortnight at a time. Given that the 'rota' used to be fortnightly (ie you had him Thurs - Sun every other weekend) every time you sort it out either it has to go one way or the other (ie your way or his, for want of a better way of putting it). Perhaps if you did a 6 week block at a time he could see that it is a bit of give and take? If he prefers Thurs - Sun then over the 3 2 week blocks he could have that 1-2 times and not for the other fortnight and hopefully that is the flexibility you are trying to introduce?

He is now 17. How much life experience eg with travel and money does he have? Is part of the problem that he relies on other people for transport? Could you get him driving lessons, or could he bike/bus it to you? Then your 'you can come whenever you like' would really mean that he could, rather than actually having to arrange this with transport providers?

What about money? Does your DH pay maintenace? Will it stop when he is 18, or will your DH then pay his son directly? How is he going to manage this?

Finally, could you articulate what 'little and often' means to you? In order to swap Thurs - Sun for Sat/Sun and one evening in the week and 'little and often' that is probably 3-4 'little and often' slots in the 2 week period. Whilst great if it works, this actually sounds like it might be more disruptive for everyone?

The reason for sorting things out a fortnight at time, means that no one has to pre-plan their lives weeks in advance; DH?s working life often throws spanners into the best laid plans, and we wouldn?t want to think SS was turning down any social/sport/work etc opportunities, just because that particular day has been deemed an ?access day.? However I take your point, if we were to do it six weeks in advance, then yes, it might be easier to demonstrate give and take when you see it on a calendar. But what we?ve been doing, is showing the calendar where the old rota is displayed, and then showing the flexible arrangements in a different colour, and it?s been easy to compare the two , and to make it clear that he?s not having less time with us, just ?little and often.?

And yes, we are hoping for 3-4 short slots over a two week period. The old arrangements were Thurs-Sun on Week One, and a mid-week night on Week Two. But over the last fortnight it was Sat-Sun on Week One, then Weds night and Sat morning on Week Two. I?ve no objection to the occasional Thurs-Sun visit; I don?t mind what configuration the visits take, just so long as we have flexibility.

DH actually summed it up himself really well, ?by now I was hoping it would be a game of golf at the weekend, and a mid-week supper.? I can?t argue with that! Seems like a far more natural arrangement for two males.

My exH is also NPD and a control freak. His latest stunt is to threaten to have me jailed for contempt of court as we are currently involved in a dispute over his precious rota. If he files a motion, it will be his third in a year. The DCs have responded to his approach ('my way or the highway') with open rebellion. My oldest DD didn't speak to her father from age 15 onwards and he knew better than to insist she be involved in the weekend rota. She had as much as she could stand of him and his NPD BS. DS just turned 18 and will never have anything to do with his father again if he can help it. DD(16) goes for weekends but does not speak to her father. The youngest two spend their weekend time watching dvds and speak briefly to him only when he speaks to them. There is no conversation. I realise they are possibly exceptional in their approach and that not everyone resists an NPD basket case the way my DCs have shown themselves capable of. I think if a child has shown signs of playing possum in the face of a Narcissist, it is time to take the child to therapy. Narcissists do terrible damage to their children. Just because all is quiet doesn't mean all is well. This is the mistake many teachers when deciding which of their students may need help -- the squeaky wheels get the oil. When the children show signs of giving up, you should be worried. 'No amount of therapy'? They need all they can get and then some. Look at the Stately Homes threads here.

'..when he left he was at a complete loss and basically floundered until he decided to join the army as a replacement form of strict rules and regimented way of life' doesn't equal a young man with any choices in life. When someone is at a complete loss and floundering they need professional help, not the handy bolthole of the army. What he did was stick his head in the sand. He had one option, not choices.

I still don't understand where the OP is coming from wrt her blank refusal to consider therapy/counselling/psychiatric assessment.

SS does not need therapy, he just needs to be coaxed out of hibernation.

Are you going to coax him into developing friendships and ambition?

Yes.

Or are you going to assume all is well once he is amenable to your bidding about the rota?

If you are content to assume he is fine because he decides to accept your regime as opposed to the one that he has been clinging to up to now, you are deluding yourself. The fact that he is resisting you is good and should give you a spark of hope for his welfare. Instead it is making you impatient with him, and you have painted the main problem here as his unwillingness to accept the imposition of your will.

In other words, the idea that he should roll over and accept your dictat is what you should be worried about. Instead you are implying that that would be the best possible outcome, and fooling yourself that this will be the nudge a friendless, drifting boy needs to maturity and a normal social life. You are contemplating replacing one regime with another -- his willingness to accept other people's schedules and plans for his life and the complete absence of any plans or instincts of his own are in fact the problem. You will just perpetuate the problem if you substitute your regime for the previous one.

mathanxiety - I'm starting to think your opinion is that anywone who doesn't fit 'the mould' needs psychological assistance. Branch out a little, accept that others are different from you. fwiw, my friend who joined the army is still in the army, married with a child and very happy.

btw - were you, or your narcissistic ex, the PWC?

No, it's anything but my opinion. Yes, others are different from me and from my DCs, and there's a wide range of 'normal', but I've seen enough of teenagers to suggest to me that this boy falls outside of that range. I don't personally understand the resistance to seeking professional help, even if only for an assessment? What is there to be lost by finding out what exactly it is they may be dealing with? What is there to be gained for the boy? If Petal is interested in the long term welfare of this boy, then she should stop focusing on her own life and how difficult or otherwise this boy is making it, stop seeking short term solutions that suit her narrow, calendar-driven planning, and find out what she and her DH can do to establish this boy securely on his own two feet instead of pushing his problems out of sight and out of mind. Right now, the main problem as she identifies it seems to be the scheduling of her own life.

This boy needs to find something inside himself that cannot be put there simply by switching regimes. The whole problem is that he has managed to substitute a regime for real life and the reason why he has ducked the challenge of real life, the give and take of the society of his peers, the challenges of negotiating relationships with people his own age must be uncovered and dealt with. The idea that he will be magically transformed by the imposition of a new regime is therefore misguided.

Petal herself has blamed the rota, the regime, (the unwavering acceptance of the dictat of others in other words) for the situation that has arisen and the problems that are apparent to so many people. How then can a different rota, again dictated to the boy, change things? It is not the rota per se that is the problem, the problem is his tendency to accept a rota imposed by others and make it the centre of his life, and a convenient excuse to not have a life of his own.

Which part of "there's more chance of winning the lottery than getting SS to be assessed by professionals" don't you understand????

That aside, I don't think he needs professional help. Not all personality traits are caused by medical conditions. Not all poor spellers are dyslexic; not all lazy people are depressed; and if you're not very bright it doesn't automatically mean you have learning difficulties.

I've been thinking about this a lot. Everyone, yes everyone, has some 'less desirable' personality traits (although 'desirable' according to whom is a whole subject in itself). There is clearly also a scale. We all know people with various 'oddities' to their personality, ranging from downright strange to just very different from ourselves. It is very easy to call someone 'odd', or 'needing help' when they are very different to what we perceive as the 'norm'.

DH's brother for example. I think he's somewhat odd. He lived with his parents until he was 35, has no friends, doesn't socialise, doesn't see any need to go on holiday, etc etc. Do I think he needs therapy or at sometime should have had therapy? No, and how mindblowingly arrogant would it be of me to think that? Who am I to say that my way of life is somehow 'better' than his, or that some therapist somehow has the magic key to making BIL lead a life that is more 'acceptable' to 'normal' standards. It really does take all sorts.

Not all lazy 17 yo people have no friends and no interest in a social life. That's not laziness.

He certainly isn't going to assessed by professionals when you're completely unwilling (for mysterious reasons) to even consider that option.

Funny to see the life of a 35 yo troglodite trotted out as an example of normal. OP, this is what you have to look forward to if you don't nip it in the bud and get this boy sorted out soon.

There is nothing magic about therapy . Where do you people get your ideas from?

ROFL at the automatic right to 'couple time'.

Many non step families with teenaged children and under might not get couple time.

mathanxiety - thanks for calling my BIL a troglodite . How open-minded you are.

If you'd actually read my post, you will see that I think of him as 'somewhat 'odd'. Not sure how you then translated that as me exemplifying him as 'normal'.

The point, which you spectacularly missed, is that sometimes people are just different/lazy/boring/socially indifferent, and that does not mean that they have some sort of pyschological problem needing therapy. Petal has correctly identified some of the traits I've mentioned in her DSS, and is doing something about it. The fact that you don't think her's is the best course of action is your opinion (but then your opinion of someone whose traits you don't value is to call them a troglodite, so I really don't value your opinion). She is nipping it in the bud

I'm just wondering what changed between OP's posts that "he's not normal and I've been saying for years he needs help"
and
"he doesn't need any help, he's just a lazy git"

Bit of embaressment maybe, some shame at having allowed a child to grow up this way without intervening?

It's the circling wagoneers, and the tendency to take the easy route.

Allnew if your BIL is normal (or happy), I'll eat my hat. Living in a state of suspended animation doesn't sound like the kind of life you would wish on your worst enemy. This isn't a thread about someone's right to be 'somewhat odd'. Petal posted about a set of problems that together spell social-emotional and possibly mental health problems that will not magically go away on their own as you yourself have seen in the case of your 'slightly odd' BIL there is a high price to be paid by everyone when real problems are brushed under the carpet (or when people who are well-meaning think that killing two birds with one stone arranging a visitation schedule to suit them for instance will magically benefit all concerned).

If Petal is prepared to trade off the short term quiet acceptance of a different rota right now for the potential of her DSS getting appropriate long term help for his obvious problems, then that is a real shame. It may solve her calendar problem but it may well result in her DSS treading water during the best years of his life.