SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

"allnew - I take it you wouldn't leave your own children to flounder in such a way"

No, but a court judge has not decided that my child's other parent has complete control over everything, so there is simply no similarity there. Also my child does not have a parent who is determined that I should play no part in his life.

For example, presumably therapists for children mainly work Mondays to Fridays. Well guess what, my DH is not allowed access to the children between Monday and Friday. So what do you suggest - he kidnaps DSS1 at the school gate to frogmarch him to the nearist therapist?

look, I do understand the courts issues - as I said earlier, been there, done that (and lost, more than once, and have never been allowed ot forget it)

I didn't suggest therapy, btw. I suggested that Petal (and you, since you're asking) consult someone yourselves to try to find a way through this. in a situation that is, in many ways not similar at all but still to do with working out how to motivate children and work outhow to deal with challenging behaviour (and extreme passivity can be challenging, as can refusing to engage, etc) I regularly consult re: what to do next in dealign with behaviours/how to move forward in a situation.

re: the determined to play no part bit - yep been there too. it's up to you what you want ot do about it. it has taken dh most of the time he has been split from his ex (17 years now) to get to where he is with his children. hostile was not the word. and he has dealt with some extreme behaviours (both form his ex and his children).

the ridiculous suggestions of kidnap do no one any favours - hysteria is rarely a way to solve anything.

I realise you don't have a child with a parent who doesn't want you to play a part in it's life - I was asking you to imagine what you woudl do if you did . I am betting it is not just accept the status quo.

Of course I would never accept the status quo for my child, but as I have repeatedly said, I am in a position to do something about it for my child.

Consult someone - I don't think any expert worth their salt would feel in a position to advise without actually meeting the child. Otherwise anything they had to go on would be second hand on the basis of a SM's opinion of a child she sees 2 days a fortnight. I'd be worried about any 'expert' making an opinion on that basis.

"it's up to you what you want ot do about it" - no it's not. As a SM I have no rights at all with respect to the children. And any attempts made by DH in the past have resulted in very negative behaviours from his ex towards the children. The last occasion resulted in DSS2 developing a nervous twitch. This particular mother is perfectly willing to ignore what's best for her children and to punish them to hurt others. DH and I realise that it is not in the childrens' best interests to do anything which will cause their mother to behave in such a negative way to them. Yes, I could put myself up there and say I'm doing the right thing by taking action, but this would completely ignore the physhological cruelty they would then sustain at home. And after all, they spend 85% of their time there.

And as you well know, I was using the term 'kidnap' to illustrate the impossibility DH or I face to take practical action.

"Consult someone - I don't think any expert worth their salt would feel in a position to advise without actually meeting the child"

tbh, that all depends on who you are consulting and why.

yes, been there too with the impact on the children. dh's ex will (more would, since they are now grown up, but there is obviously still heavy influence) stoop to nothing.

I just disagreed with your earlier statement that maintaining the status quo is better than tackling it - form the descriptions you and Petal have given, these are chidren in crisis.

I know I couldn't sit back and do nothing about it

re: the being in a position to do somehting about it - again, the majority of my advice (and other posters) to Petal has been that she needs to get her dh's arse in gear over this - he is the one with the abilit yot do somehting about it.

but Petal (and you) are there in these situations too. and by not tackling the alarmingly head-in-sand attitude form her dh, Petal is colluding in keeping her ss as helpless and lifeless as he currently is.

Well I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the 'colluding' point.

Also I think it's you verging on hysteria with the term 'in crisis'

stewie - explain to me why my DSS would be referred to as 'in crisis'

As silverfrog points out, I spend quite a lot of time with DSS - the situation you describe is really not accurate in the case of my DSS. He does not have serious mental health issues.

Stewie ? you use some very emotive language. My stepson is NOT in crisis, he is not being neglected, he is not being abused and he does not have serious mental health issues.

And I doubt Allnew?s stepson does either.

My SS is extremely lazy and apathetic and neither of his parents are prepared to tackle it, for very different reasons. That?s all.

I started this thread to discuss access arrangements for older teens. Social Services, psychiatrists, health workers etc are NOT required in our household.

I am not colluding to prevent him getting medical help, because he doesn?t need any. He needs some ?proper? parenting and a little ?tough love.?

As I said in an earlier thread, BRING BACK NATIONAL SERVICE !!!!!

Stewie with all due respect you are talking nonsense

Thanks for that Dadsgirlfriend. I came to the conclusion, a long time ago, that I'd never get DH to acknowledge that SS's behaviour wasn't normal.

However I'm very pleased that DH is now agreeable to flexible access, but it frustrates me that he tiptoes round SS such a lot.

I'm pleased Stewie has absented herself from this thread, I was expecting to be accused of being the next Myra Hindley .......

'Lazy and apathetic' in an older teen signal trouble.

You don't need National Service . You just need to take the bull by the horns and invite professionals into your lives to assess the boy's needs. Behave like adults in other words, for the sake of a child who is floundering and needs a lifeline, and not resentful children all busy pointing fingers at each other.

If all 'lazy and apathetic' teenagers needed professional help, then the NHS would be in crisis .........

They're just lazy and apathetic because they're allowed to be. I would have been lazy and apathetic, only my parents wouldn't let me!!!

The point though is that you seem perfectly happy to sit back and spend your life with a man who will not do basic parenting tasks, and has neglected his son. I couldn't live with that man, or indeed myself.

My husband genuinely thinks that the "path of least resistance" is the best way to parent his son. He's also very scared of losing contact with him, and is worried this will happen if he challenges him, rocks the boat or doesn't indulge all his wishes.

It's a classic case of Disney parenting, underpinned by the very best of intentions. We hear time and time again that 'weekend Dads' do not dabble in the less savoury elements of parenting.

You make it sound like I'm married to a serial killer.

You are being might unreasonable, petal02. Schoolchildren live life according to a routine, and where they sleep at night and where they spend their weekends is an integral part of that routine.

Lazy and apathetic signal problems. You can dismiss this with flippant remarks about the NHS or National Service. Or you can take this boy and try to help him. Not by the methods you have tried up to now, but by getting a proper assessment of his problems and dealing with reality instead of grinding your axe. To do otherwise is to neglect this boy and is quite self-indulgent.

The idea of administering a swift kick to the rear end as a means of sorting him out may help ease your frustration, but it is unlikely to help much in the long term. The boy is unmotivated, lacks energy and ambition and is clinging to routine. He has no plans, no get up and go. Dictating a change of routine for him is basically the equivalent of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. His father has basically put his head firmly in the sand. Frustrating, yes. Impossible, no. Put your foot down wrt your DH. Get the child the help he needs. It exists. The NHS can take care of itself.

Bonsoir - but he isn't a school child. He left school last week, he may or may not join 6th form in September, but in the meantime does not plan to seek work. I assume he'll claim jobseekers or something.

So I think that renders him unemployed. There are approx 3 million unemployed in the UK; I suspect a small percentage of that 3 million simply can't be bothered to work. Are all these people 'in crisis' or are they just lazy?

Up thread you agreed that he had problems and you had urged for intervention. Now suddenly he's just a lazy bugger now that he's left school?

You sound like a delight.

They are 'in crisis' if they are so apathetic or outwardly lazy that they would prefer to loaf around and accept pocket money from the government than seek the challenge of finding a job and learning the ropes at the bottom of the pile. Don't be fooled by the word 'crisis'. It's just jargon. It is shorthand for a cluster of depression-related and emotional problems. Your SS falls short of the image of a person standing on a ledge of a high building threatening to jump, but he is experiencing serious problems nevertheless.

He is indeed lazy, and he does have problems, but they are not medical or psychiatric (sp?) problems. They are just unfortunate personality traits that have developed due to being treated like a baby for far too long.