SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

Are you sure your DH is 'singing off the same hymn sheet'?

It does not look like he is, it seems like he is trying to keep you and his DS happy, which appears impossible.

I suggest you look at the bigger picture. Therapy perhaps? It doesn't sound like he could handle uni. Isn't anyone worried about him?

Didyouever - DH is keen to have flexibility, he just wants to implement it carefully. I know DH well enough to be aware that if he doens't agree with me, then he says so. He's extremely protective of SS, and if he thinks I'm not being gentle enough with him, he won't hold back from telling me.

As regards therapy - neither of his parents think there is a problem.

your dh doesn't want to spend more than a couple of days with his son, because it is such hard work, and he doesn't see this as a problem?

he thinks it is fine for his son to not have friends, not do any sport/have any outside interests?

he thinks it is ok for a 17 year old ot be so reliant on a rota? and so scared of change?

honestly, you both need to start lookng at the bigger picture here.

DH insists that SS is just a late developer. And whilst I'm not convinced about this, DH is VERY defensive on the subject. What am I supposed to do, when both of SS's parents insist all this is normal?

You want a lot of input unless its something difficult then. You can't insist on flexibility and not insist there is a BIG problem with an almos adult who can't handle it.
It doesn't sound like you hang back with your thoughts, so why aren;t you insisting this young man needs some help?

agree with Hell - you need to do some straight talking with your dh.

you are all (and I include his mother in this too) letting him down badly.

and I stand by what I said earlier too - pushing for the flexibility is not going ot mean that oyur ss will be able to handle it.

he needs some help.

The "he needs some help" is a VERY old argument between DH and I. My step-father (who's brought up three boys) thinks there's something wrong, lots of DH's friends (many of who have teenage boys) think there's something wrong, and many of my friends (again, many of them have boys) think there's something wrong.

DH insists SS is quiet, shy, doesn't like change, and is just a late developer. There have been some big blow-ups about this over the years, and DH gets extremely defensive if anyone suggests things aren't as they should be.

DH is not in contact with his ex, she refuses to co-parent in any shape or form. It's not like I could pick up the phone and ask her opinion (WW3 would break out).

I should add that I've commented in the past, that we all have to "ignore the elephant in the room" and carry on as if all this is normal.

Stewie's Mum - why do you think it's strange that my husband is protective of our 'couples time'? Should we not have any time together?

Then you have colluded in ignoring his problems for years. That boy has been let down by all of you, and your main concern seems to be how to keep him away from your couple time. How you can live with a man so unable to look after his own child is beyond me.

Petal02, might be worth flicking through some books on teens. I once saw a book that had a useful checklist on tasks a teen should be able to do before leaving home, such as making some basic meals, managing a bank account, being able to work out travel arrangements, able to do chores to care for themselves.

As parents we often ensure our toddlers/preschoolers have the skills they need at appropriate ages but then 'forget' to keep building on those skills for our teens. I tried to make sure I found opportunities that helped my teen practice life skills. Glad to say that she went off to Uni and has coped brilliantly. She has however been shocked that some students can't make a meal, can't make independent travel arrangements so I suspect it's quite common (but not recommended).

It really fustrates me. I don't think people realise that the reason a lot of us (me included) don't feel automatically drawn to our step children is because we come into the picture when they have already established their own way of doing things which we don't always agree with. Throw that in with all the other things that hold us back i.e access rotas money issues, quite often the ex and in my case a SS that doesn't lift a finger to tidy up after himself and it can make for a very difficult way of life which can bring resentment.

I also agree with u petal i don't see this as SS's home because a) he doesn't live here and b) he does nothing to contribute to it. If i went to stay at a hotel everyother weekend i wouldn't consider it my home. However if DSS made his bed, put his dinner plates in the sink, washed up every now and again and tidied up after himself i would consider this his 2nd home because he is contributing.

Why should us SM's be put out everyother weekend or more have to spend the whole weekend cooking washing cleaning tidying etc after a child that isn't ours that quite often shows no respect for us. It amazes me. If i had a friend that was all take take take i wouldn't be friends with them. However because it's a 'child' we have to deal with it and suck it up. Yes we all new that our DH/DP's had a child/ren when we met them but expecially if we weren't already mothers ourselves how on earth were we meant to know how difficult it was going to be?

Sorry bit of a rant!

did you not discuss any of this with your dh before moving in, rhirhi?

if the situation is as you describe, then it can hardly have been sprung on you at the last moment.

I owuld not have moved into a situation like that at all (NB, I am a stepmother!)

I have had to bend over backwards to accomodate my stepchildren - as I shoudl have done. they were here first. they ahve had to adjust to me, but the thign that always comes first is that they are apart of this family.

fortunately my dh agrees they shoudl eb doign some work around the house (which does not mean it gets done! they were children, after all, )

but, tbh, you cannot move into a situation like that, without agreeing some ground rules and then start to resent it afterwards - entering into a partnership with a man who has children means looking at the whole picture, and seeing if it is a picture you can live with (with obvious adjustments for the benefit of all)

without doing that, why on earth woudl you want to live with these men? men who have no inout or say in their children's lives? men who cannot be bothered to bring up their children properly? (and I know how hard it can be to see your dh not discpline effectively because "it's their last day here" or similar, but if that was a constant theme, then I owuld not be here at all - I have no interest in having children with/being in a family with a man who is not interested in bringing his children up properly)

I just wanted to add a little bit to this thread. I have a cousin, he's now in his 40s, and has never worked a day in his life. He was very similar to how you describe your SS petal - he was a very sensitive person growing up, but intelligent and quite gifted musically and artistically. He did get a 'YTS' job for a few months after leaving school but it destroyed him when he wasn't kept on after the 'YTS' scheme ended - he seemed to have unrealistic expectations about the long term prospects of his job and believed his boss when he said he would keep him on. The rejection he felt was too much for him to cope with, and he basically had a breakdown as a result. His dad was of the mind set that he needed to push his son to 'grow up' and get out into the big bad world, and how he handled it contributed to my cousin falling apart. He needed more support, not less, when he left school at 16, and the fact that everyone expected him to suddenly grown up, move on and create a life of his own, just pushed him towards a melt down at the age of 17/18. He has had lots of mental health issues since, and still now, is incapable of looking after himself. His mum simply says 'he cannot cope with life' and she worries so much about him all the time. He too struggles to do something as basic as make a cup of tea for himself.

The reason I mention my cousin is I think the notion that at 17 your SS should be moving on, growing up, and becoming more and more independent, is a bit of a red herring. He can only do that when he is ready, not when society deems him to be of an age to be able to move on. If he hasn't got the network of friends or outside interests now, then it's possible he still needs adult input into helping him sort out how to move forward. He's still in limbo effectively, and has no set plans for his immediate future. I think that needs to be addressed, rather than the issue of contact and it's frequency. As hard as it might be for you, I think you need to accept that until your SS has established a life for himself, he will still look to his father for input/support.

It sounds to me like you have been looking at the end of school for your SS as some kind of watershed moment. I just don't think your SS is reading from the same page as you and your OH. Hopefully, it might just be for a little longer, but there is a real possibility that this runs deeper than just lacking confidence or maybe being a little less mature than his peers. If I was your OH, I'd be taking a more involved pro-active role in helping my DS to figure out what to do now, and how to go about getting what I want in terms of job/study etc. Taking the time over the next few months to help him work out what to do now is probably going to help more than changing contact time to casual socialising.

Good luck trying to figure out how to resolve this.

Can I just interject here. My DSS1 has all of the attributes Petal describes in her DSS.

• Very 'young' indeed for his age
• No initiative whatsoever
• Unable and completely unwilling to make any decisions. In fact I don't think he has even realised he could actually make a decision if he so wanted
• Doesn't spend any time with friends outside of school
• Doesn't partake in activities which are arranged by his mother and to which he is driven to and fro by his mother/father
• Clingy to DH in the extreme
• Unable to spend up to a couple of hours on his own without adult guidance

Now I see this as a problem, and over and over again I have raised the question to DH as to the extent DSS1 will be able to lead a life beyond, for example 18. DH completely agrees with me.

Thing is, these traits have now become his personality. Does this mean he needs therapy? Can therapy actually change your personality by that age?

My personal thought is that the answer to these questions is no. In terms of another way of looking at it - will people (including eg. employers) continue to make excuses for him because he was a step-child and this may be because of his parents' divorce? I doubt it. At some point, whatever the problems or causes, surely reality has to start to kick in.

Just for the record i am 22 i was 20 when my DH and i moved together and DSS was 8 when we met so i don't think my DH new what it would be like tbh maybe if i was older DSS would see me as more of an adult and also maybe because i'm not older and don't have kids myself yet (DD due next week) i'm not patient enough i don't know. I try my best with it all but maybe i just don't have the 'life' experience. I've always been mature for my age but i have had to grow up a hell of a lot and quickly in the last 3 yrs!

Also why would my DH sit down and say to me well my son doesn't help around the house doesn't tidy up after himself etc hes protective of him so wouldn't say this. It's one of those things that happens gradually and gets worse because u start to resent it for the longer it goes on for.

My DH has always shown interest in his son has regular access and pays more Cm than he should and always on time. How is that a man that cannot be bothered? i can assure u it's not been easy for him either. DSS is nearly 11 and Dh had a fling with his mother when he was in his early 20's and she got pregnant. My DH has never lived with his son so finds it very difficult to parent when access is every other weekend because he doesn't get the 'practise' if u like. He also has his own mother (MIL) telling him how it 'should' be done. 10 years on my DH is still in the picture and has always paid and had time for his son i think it's honourable after everything he has been through (personal stuff regarding his own father and courts for access etc etc) that he is still involved.

I love my DH so i cope with the weekends as best i can because i know that he is worth it!

Stewie?s Mum: you think I?ve COLLUDED to stop my stepson getting any help???? For heaven?s sake ? I?ve been posting about my frustrations ever since I discovered this board, ie that it all seems wrong to me, however DH would rather stick pins in his eyes than do anything which may upset DH. I doubt the ex would notice if SS turned green ? hence the position we?re in now.

Also, I find it strange that you object to DH and I having ?couple time? together. What should be we doing? Devoting our every waking moment to SS?

RhiRhi raises some very good points, and before anyone wheels out the old chestnut ?you knew what you were getting into?, please can I state that ?no, we didn?t!!!!? We all thought we knew what we were getting into, but the reality is very different. It?s very hard to tell how the family dynamics will pan out til you?re all living together properly, and often Disney behaviour is hard to identify until you?ve been exposed to it for a while.

I come from a step family, I thought I knew what I was getting into. I had the very best of intentions, as I think we all did at the outset. Did I think we?d still be in this position when SS left school? No, I didn?t. In the absence of a crystal ball, that would have been very hard to predict.

Hammybobs ? thank you for your constructive comments. Whilst part of me thinks SS could do with some help, a greater part of me suspects he?s just lazy and has been babied for far too long. And like Allnew?s stepson, this behaviour has now become ingrained and I doubt therapy would make any difference.

However ? all this would be alleviated if we brought back national service ???.

And in response to all this 'colluding' talk.

In my own case (and apologies to Petal on barging in on her thread!), DH is not allowed, by the childrens' mother, any input whatsoever in their lives. She makes all decisions, tells the children what is happening, and gives them no choices whatsoever. After years and years and years of this, the children (more particular DSS1 who is particular maleable), has been indoctrinated that the only choices in life are to be made by his mother and that he and DH have no say in anything. Any attempts by DH to encourage his sons are met by vicious and bullying remarks to both him and the children.

DSS1, imo, has just had the personality sucked out of him after years of this and he is now, imo, a barely functionning automaton of his mother's making.

Of course the legal system in this country is fully supportive of a mother's ability to control in this way, if she so wishes. Father are given 'access' and 'financial responsibilies', but mothers (and I say mothers because it is usually mothers) have freedom to completely take over and remove all practical parental rights from the father. This is exactly what has happened to DH. That, and a mixture of an over-controlling mother with narcissistic personality disorder, and a child unable/unwilling to challenge it, has resulted in where we are now.

I'm not sure how much therapy could make a dent in any of that at this stage.

Collusion - you must be kidding. As I say, NRPs have no rights, and SM even less.

Superb post Allnew - our siutations are so similar.

well said allnew!

I should add that DH had no input into which school his children went to, and at one point didn't even know which school his daughter was attending. We took SS abroad on holiday last year; SS asked if we were taking spare syringes with us. DH said "what syringes?" It turns out that SS was diagnosed with some condition that could need a shot of adrenaline in a hurry, and therefore should carry a syringe with him at all times. We knew nothing about this. DH tried to discuss with this ex, who refused to speak.

Also, prior to the holiday DH sent a letter to the ex, outlining which vaccinations SS would need. The ex did not bother to get these vaccinations done. DH asked SS which surgery he was registered at, but SS (surprise surprise) didn't know. We took advice from our GP in the end, who advised that as we were going to a "developed/touristy" part of the country in question, that SS should probably be OK.

This is the same woman who used to send SS to us for the weekend with no extra clothes. He'd turn up wearing his school uniform on a Thurs night, and that would be that. By the time he got to 14-ish, I began to realise that SS should have a minor level of responsibility in bringing some clothes with him, but no - it just doesn't compute.

This is what DH and I have to contend with. And then you say I'm COLLUDING. Give me strength.