SS challenges our plans regarding "flexible visiting arrangements" - please help

[Petal02]

I?d really like your thoughts/advice on the events of the last 48 hrs.

It was all going really well; SS came to us on Weds for his midweek night, and was then back for the weekend, but we?ve been sensible and decided to pick him up on Sat morning, take him home at 6pm on Sunday, as a ?weekend? is Saturday/Sunday to most people. Everyone seemed relaxed, and yesterday I commented to DH that I was going to sit down with SS and the calendar, and work out some visiting dates for the next two weeks. DH was fine about it.

I proposed dates which basically meant alternate weekends plus a midweek night, although the midweek night was a Tues instead of a Weds on one occasion, and also weekends now run from Sat to Sun, rather than Thurs to Sun (we used to class Thurs as the midweek night if it was an access weekend). I thought SS would be happy with this, as it didn?t constitute any less access, just ?little and often? rather than the Thurs-Sun marathons.

But SS kept reiterating he wanted to go back to the rota, and couldn?t see any reason why we should be flexible. I responded that flexibility was the best way forward, given he?s now left school (he left on Friday ? although he?s likely to go to 6th form in Sept). It was a calm conversation, no raised voices, however we didn?t reach agreement. So SS seeks out DH, and tells him he?s not happy. DH tells SS he?ll think about it. I speak to DH, DH confirms SS is not happy, and promises to speak to him about it. I ask DH if he?s going to back down, DH says no, but that it needs to be handled delicately.

I then go out for an hour, knowing that discussions will take place in my absence. I get home to find there?s a definite atmosphere. So DH takes SS back home at 6pm and when he got back I asked him what happened. He said he hadn?t backed down (phew), and has told SS to ?give flexibility a go? and that after a few months if SS still isn?t happy, we can talk about it again ??.. fair enough, but I could tell DH was upset. He went on to say that SS hates change, that he?d had the rug pulled from under him when his parents split up, and that we need to tread very carefully. I replied carefully (not raising my voice) and said that whilst I took DH?s comments on board, we?re not creating huge changes for SS (it?s not like there?s a new school, new house, new baby to contend with), its only changing days, not reducing time. Also, (as I keep saying) SS is nearly 17, and he?s just left school. Surely he shouldn?t be quite so fragile? And, it?s 7 years since DH split with his ex ? just how long is DH supposed to continue with guilt parenting and compensatory behaviour??????

DH did concede that maybe he should make more efforts to promote flexibly by suggesting ad-hoc golf/pizza etc outside of planned visits. I?m fully in favour of this, it would bring about a more ?grown up? relationship with SS/DH, rather than the present childlike situation.

So whilst DH, to his credit, stood firm when challenged, it?s made me realise how shaky all this is. DH actually has quite similar views to me, regarding how things should be with someone of SS's age, but it?s clear that the execution of these plans, and the fear of upsetting SS, really troubles him.

Thoughts please.

I've read a few of your threads, petal, though I'm not sure I've posted before. I understand why you find it hard to accept what silver frog is saying, but I do think you need to think it over. Essentially it seems to me that you are saying "we need to do something about these access arrangements, they're not normal for a 17yo". And what you're being told is that you need to tackle the "not normal" part rather than the "access" part. Because if his mum won't do what's best for him then you and your DH must do the best you can in the circumstances. And just readdressing the access isn't enough.

No he doesn't sound I'll to me either.

If you are in a position to diagnose him, then he is in good hands. But if you are not, then you should look for help in getting a diagnosis and more importantly helping him get through the impasse. Without a proper assessment your efforts will be stabs in the dark.

You cannot do tough love on your own either -- if your DH will not co-operate you will fail and your relationship with your DH will suffer. You really have to admit that the bull at a gate strategy has not worked so far (insisting on flexible access) and realise that that failure does not bode well for the future. You have described a dynamic where the DH and the DSS exclude you from serious discussions. You can expect more of the same, and for the DSS to divide and conquer. He is his father's son when it comes to seeking the path of least resistance and has probably identified a weak link. Both of them will gang up in their own different ways on you if you try to force them to accept your tough love plan here.

This child is young and deserves the best start in life possible. It is a shame to see someone hobbled by dysthymia or mired in the crisis of young adulthood and to dismiss his problems as laziness. Laziness doesn't cover the other issues you have mentioned. He is withdrawn, clingy and shy. He has no plans for his own future despite his intelligence. He lives with a mother who sounds like a lot of hard work. It is very probable that he has learned to be manipulative and to expect to be catered to, and lacks self-discipline, confidence and a strong sense of competence as a result. 'Apathetic' is not laziness and signals a deeper problem -- a boy in his late teens should be very interested in carving out a life for himself. Late nights with friends and phone bills through the roof should be your main problem, not apathy.

'Laziness' is actually a lazy characterisation of deeper malaise. Your use of the fallout from your previous contact with the school as an excuse not to reach out in that direction or to contact Social Services or other agencies that could help is really rather disingenuous. I suspect it is just a cover for deep-seated resistance to cede control over the situation (actually you just have an illusion of control). You prefer to wallow in fantasies of tough love, National Services than to do anything constructive, for spurious reasons -- obviously you are very angry about the dynamic that is going on here between your DH and his DS, but you need to step back and deal with your own anger separately, while choosing the most appropriate method available to deal with the DSS.

I cannot understand your resistance to the idea of therapy, that you express in post after post. Do you want a solution to this immaturity/emotional issue/ possible mental health problem or do you actually feel more comfortable banging your head against the wall and maintaining the status quo? You need to go beyond your own comfort level here, force your DH into family therapy (because his relationship with his DS and your unhappiness with it have clearly strained your relationship) and then present a united front to the DSS, and insist on therapy. Yes, the NRP has few rights and there are aspects of the situation that you are going to just have to suck up, but he has some rights, and you need to find out exactly where your DH stands, work with what you have, stop wringing your hands and finish with the wistful codswallop about National Service.

If you can't spell psychiatric, you sure as hell can't diagnose any problems in that department.

Good grief! laziness is laziness - it's particularly common in teenagers and more so if they've been allowed to get away with it all their lives and if they have been excused from joining in with normal life because they have divorced parents - (poor traumatised little things...)

If I was you Petal I would walk away from the therapy band who have landed on your thread and go and have a stiff drink over in a more friendly one!

Laziness does not equate to never leaving the house and having no friends or interests. Thats way more than laziness, being a teenager does not make it normal.
If you knew a grown woman who never left the house and refused to go anywhere or do anything, you would think there was something wrong with her and that she needed help. Unless you're a cold hearted bitch that is.

I don't see anywhere that petal has said her SS never leaves the house!

REad the thread then, its right there.

It's there -- 'We fully expected that by now, SS would have some sort of life for himself, ie friends/sport etc, and that this would naturally break the access pattern. But no. SS elects not to leave the house unless he?s going to school, and I suspect he uses the rota as an excuse not to participate in anything extra-curricular (we live a fair distance from the ex)' along with references to not having any plans for either a job or 6th form.

And now he doesn't even go to school.

I'm not at all sure why you could possibly imagine that "flexible" access (who is being flexible here, by the way - you or SS?) was going to make your stepson's life easier or make him mature. He is a child, clearly not a very mature one, and needs all the family structure and support he can get.

Going out with friends takes effort, if someone is lazy, they won't bother. I don't see why he can't be "lazy" rather than ill. I agree his self esteem is probably very low but the worst thing you can do with someone like that is keep on doing things for him - he needs gentle, slow pushing into the big wide world and as parents this is our responsibility. Something that this boys parents are failing in.

I have a step son myself who never does anything for himself unless it is organised to the nth degree for him. Admittedly he is younger but the signs are there, no interest in anything unless you physically do it all for him.

Some kids don't want to party / talk to their mates all the time, I really don't see that as being abnormal, to be honest.

I think this kid is clinging onto the access rota because his parents won't communicate, and I suspect the mother is putting the father down, making SS even more clingy, Petals attempts to introduce flexibility are also probably making this boy cling on more.

What this boy needs to learn is that people are still going to be there for him whatever he does. In the same way that kids need firm boundaries to feel secure, this boy needs to know that his parents aren't going anywhere and he is able to make decisions for himself without "losing" something.

All the while the parents are treating him as a fragile piece of china, he won't learn the valuable life lessons he needs.

This DC doesn't have friends and doesn't leave the house. It's not a case of not wanting to party / talk with friends 'all the time'. He doesn't even participate in organised activities either, so there goes the theory that he is lazy and has become too reliant on things being organised for him.

I don't think Petal on her own with her tough love is going to have any effect here unless the DH signs on to the programme and that looks very unlikely. I suspect the DH may be saying whatever he thinks Petal wants to hear about how his conversations with the DS on flexibility have gone.

Actually, when I look at the OP and see the phrase 'our plans' and then read the subsequent posts, it is very clear that 'our' does not apply here.

"If you knew a grown woman who never left the house and refused to go anywhere or do anything, you would think there was something wrong with her and that she needed help."
You can't compare petal's SS with the above description which implies someone who really never physically leaves the house due to some kind of phobia or something. He is obviously going from his mums house to his dads so is leaving the house for that reason. Also he is only not going to school any more because he has left school - not because he is too fragile to leave the house to attend.

That is hair splitting, Glasscompletelybroken. Clearly the boy comes and goes between his mother's house and his dad's, and he used to go to school every day. He is not holed away like a troglodite with agoraphobia. He is not living the normal life of a boy in his late teens either, by any stretch of the imagination, and he is showing no inclination to do so.

Also bear in mind that his fathers house is not allowed to be his home, he is not welcome there when his father is not there, and as well as that according to OP his mother wants rid of him whenever she can.

So you have a child who is wanted by neither of his parents, has no friends, can't cope with change, and only leaves the house to go to school, although now he has left school, so he doesn't even have that.

And OP's main concern is changing his schedule to make her life easier, and protecting her couple time with this boys father.

Doesn't really come off as a pretty picture, though I'm sure its not the full one.

It's not hairsplitting - you were implying that he is some kind of reclusive agorophobic and that anyone who didn't want to help him was a cold hearted bitch!
He isn't joining in with real life becuase he has never had to. Both his parents have guilt-parented him and pandered to him and that has been very comfortable for him. He doesn't need therapy - he just needs that to stop.
There are a lot of us step-mums watching this thread with dread and interest because we can see the same thing happening in our families. Children constantly entertained, spoilt and pandered to because their parents feel guilty. Whether they are at their mum's house or their dad's, both parents are falling over themselves to make sure they are having a lovely time and not having to do anything they don't want to do.
God knows what kind of adults they will turn into but self centred, lazy and unable to think for themselves would be a good guess. I imagine that sounds familiar to Petal.

Reclusive, withdrawn, friendless and aimless. Not agoraphobic, and no cold hearted b*h statement made by me. I didn't imply anything more than I said, including dysthymia. The way to get out of the rut he is in is to find out exactly what it is first and then to tackle it. This situation has been a long time in the making, and part of it has been caused by one of the people who now is being called upon to fix him, his father (who is showing absolutely no interest in rocking the boat for any reason so not exactly a reliable partner for the OP in her plans.) Hence the need for professional involvement.

Time is wasting. He needs to either find a job or make plans for 6th form and further. His parents have certainly failed him, and neither one of them seems inclined to do anything about it. Only his stepmother seems to sense something is wrong (well, the DH's friends have all noticed something too) and to her credit wants something to change, but I think she is going about it the wrong way.

Petal, he is a lazy toad waiting for hand-outs from anyone daft enough to give them.

We have a seagull problem which is very similar, grown gulls hanging around our roofs looking the same size and colouring and ability as their parents, - still shrieking and calling for their next feed to be regurgitated by their elders, - most unnecessary - and very irritating why don't the bastards go out to sea where I can't hear them?

Sorry, not very helpful I know, - but it just reminded me of the pesky gulls, hopefully you see I sympathise.

You may sympathise, you clearly don't have any empathy. And this, ladies, is what gives stepmothers a bad name, the kind of horror that is yoshilunk.

If the child in question was Petals own son i doubt there would be all this talk about therapists etc. It would be o yeah sounds familiar just a teenage thing make him get a job help round the house etc it's just lazyness give him a kick up the bum, typical 17 yr old lad. BUT because it's a step-parenting issue it's always assumed that there is some deep hidden issue because of all the 'trauma' they've been through due to the break-up and obviously because we are step mothers we must not really give shit about them and their fathers must not have the time for them as they are the NRP. If this was a single mother posting about her son everyone would be all have a and a it's obvious he's behaving this way because his FATHER left. Nothing to do with the shitty choices and behaviour the mother might have shown no of course its the father and his new wifes fault!