applying for residence order and parental responsibility for me (stepmum) - mother going nuts!

[ladydeedy]

hello
sigh.. sorry, another post (have only just come across this site in the last few days and cant seem to stay away right now!).
Anyway... DH and I are applying for a residence order for his son who has come to live with us and wants to stay (and we want him to stay too!). All happy there. He is 14 and very clear that he doesnt want to go back and live with his mum.
We are making a joint application so that I would also have parental responsibility. This is because DH often abroad for work and it means that practical stuff for son can be dealt with by me if necessary, e.g. signing school/medical forms, without me having to find the mother and get her to sign.
So we thought it would all be a matter of course but...
the mother now going apopleptic with rage saying she doesnt give a f*ck that he lives with us but that she absolutely wont allow ME to have any "legal rights" over the son and will fight tooth and nail as she "doesnt trust me".
Not quite sure how I feel about that, given that I have been his stepmother for years and we have a great relationship! Also if she is happy for me to care for him, then why the big issue over any parental responsibility?
I guess this means she will contest. I dont have a problem with that personally but think this may cause anxiety to the son who may have to go through interviews etc with cafcass as a result.
In addition I'm thinking... any lawyer would ask questions about why she is so adamant and would advise her to forget about it? She basically chucked him out and took his key off him - I'm not sure her view about parental responsibility would really holds much value in the eyes of the court? (although of course she is still his mother).
any thoughts or advice out there? Anyone else been through this? and if so, my sympathies!!

All right then, if your DH intends to make the allegations about this woman that you have made here (and these are serious allegations, including unfitness as a parent implied by references to the mental health, abuse and bullying of a child, neglect by throwing him out of his home) he will be required to present compelling evidence. In any case, he will have to present a compelling reason to change the status quo and accord you parental rights. The courts do not dish out orders like this willy nilly just because a petitioner requests them, and just on his say so. That would debase the courts and the system. The courts are equally as keen on upholding their own dignity as they are on upholding the best interests of the children.

I have seen with my own eyes right here, what you think of this woman. How you deal with her in RL I have to take your word, but your feelings about her you have made very clear, even before your acknowledgement of them.

The courts are there to decide what the best interests of the children are, because there are usually at least two completely different opinions presented to the courts as to what the best interests of the children are. Not two sets of facts, two opinions. The court decides what is a fact. If all parties could get together and agree on the best interests of the children, there would be no family courts. People disagree to the point of impasse. It's not always clearcut.

OK - if we try and take some of the emotions out of this the bottom line is that this particular child has decided he wants to live with his father. Personally, I think it is shameful that a natural parent should have to apply for PR but that is the law and that's the way it is. Sadly, as this child is 14 it is very likely that the courts will take his views into account. This doesn't sound like someone going to court for the hell of it. This sounds like a father trying to formalise the new living arrangements and he and his wife are being criticised as they want to share the parenting which is what they have been doing for some years. I do feel sorry for the birth mother - it is a truely awful situation but I don't see what opposing this will achieve unless she is also opposing the father having PR. It doesn't mean that the son can't live with her at some point in the future if that's what he wants to do and it doesn't mean that she stops being his mother in any way.

Neither of us is planning to talk about her mental/medical issues. It's not relevant.

My husband wont be making any allegations about her. You forget, this is not about her.

There are in fact three opinions to take into account, not two. The child's, the mother's and the father's.

It's always a good idea for a parent to apply for PR immediately a visitation arrangement is set up (I assume a long time ago in the case of this child if Ladydeedy has known him since he was three). This should have been sorted out before now, if the father was intent on doing the best for the child and preventing mess and squabbles, right from the start, and being involved fully at least as far as major medical decisions were concerned, despite his occasional travel abroad.

I think the mother can oppose Ladydeedy's application while supporting the father's, but I think if the choice available boils down to all or nothing, I hope Ladydeedy will step back and not get in the way of the father getting PR, all other things being equal.

It might be possible to find a way to have Ladydeedy act in loco parentis (on behalf of the father but not the mother) in his absence, with the mother getting first refusal, so to speak, for occasions when the child needs picking up or a doctor needs the go ahead to perform an emergency procedure. This would be possible even without Ladydeedy going ahead with her application, which seems to have succeeded only in stirring things up considerably, far from improving relations among the parties.

The reason a NR parent needs to apply is because so many NR parents don't have anything to do with their children once the relationship with the children's mother ends, and automatically according them rights would potentially make life more difficult for the resident parent, depending on circumstances. This requirement applies to mothers who are NR parents equally with fathers.

My husband does have PR and always has had.
This situation has arisen because we are making an application for a joint residence order, which by its nature means that I would have PR as a result.

My DH has always been very involved in the upbringing of his children. We moved to the same area for that very reason.

It may well be the case that the mother objects to my having PR - in which case you are right mathanxiety, that my DH can delegate his PR to me in any case.

Ladydeedy, if this is so, then don't waste any more time trying to see this through. If your DH can have the residency order without you named, the mother really can't reasonably object. He would have to be almost Adolph Hitler's evil twin to have a residency order denied under the circumstances, and since the child needs the stability, why muddy the waters?

I dont feel like I'm "wasting time". We have applied for it and will see.

Like you say, there are not really grounds for her to object to the residency (she has said that already she doesnt care where the boy lives) so her objection would be based upon it being a joint residency application.

I'm a little bit confused now ladydeedy. This "joint residency" application. It isn't actually joint between you and your husband though (if it is, this is something I have never heard of before! and I've been doing a lot of reading up on family court stuff recently)... joint residency means joint between the bio-father and bio-mother. As opposed to one being awarded "sole residency".

All joint residency means is that the child has two homes, Mum and Dad's, whereas with sole residency it means that the child has one house and visits the other and the person with sole residency can force the return of the child.

Like I say, I'm a little confused now. What is it you are actually going to court for? If your husband wants it so that your step-son's Mother cannot go through with her threats of forcing his son to return, he would need to apply for sole residency.

If you have any info of this joint residency between your H and you online, do you have a link at all?

"If your husband wants it so that your step-son's Mother cannot go through with her threats of forcing his son to return, he would need to apply for sole residency". Surely not, ChocHobNob. If there was joint residency (between the mother and the father), the mother would not be able to force him - the father would not need to have sole residency to do that (according to your own description of the two situations). While knowing next to nothing about it, my guess would be that this might be what is being applied for?

I don't understand why the mother would object to joint residency - as that would mean that she was objecting to joint and impling that the father has sole residencey - or is she realy keen that the son doesn't go back to live with her?

Even if the mother objected to joint residencey - she could still object to the PR for the sm and say at 14 he is old enough to make many of his own choices and in an emrgencey she is local

No you're right, she could only do that if she had sole residency herself. Sorry, got mixed up myself there.

I was just confused by the joint residency being Dad and Step-Mum and its only just occurred to me. Joint residency is between Dad and Mum.

We are applying for a residence order for the son, in joint names (mine and my DHs).

There is no residence order currently in place (for the mother, for example).

legal-zone.co.uk/residence_orders
"Residence Orders can also be made in favour of more than one person and thus a father and a stepmother can jointly apply for a Residence Order."

This isnt a "shared" residence order, but a "joint" residence order.

Well you learn something new every day ... thanks for clarifying Ladydeedy.

Ladydeedy- I'd just like to say you have come across very well on this thread against some pretty hostile posters. I think some people think this is AIBU. Good luck.

Right I have only read half way down and it all got very repetitive.

Ladydeedy, could you please clarify what you and your dh are doing to try to help your stepson mend his relationship with his mother? I'm just wondering how this unnecessary battle over parental responsibility is likely to affect any chance of ever sorting things out between the two of them.

Thanks PithySlicker, I appreciate and yes, there have been some pretty hostile posters! thanks for your moral support.

scotia yes I can explain what we are doing to help mend the relationship with his mother.

We have encouraged him to speak to her on the phone and to go and see her in person. We have done the same to her, asking if she would like him to come over for tea one night a week so they can start building a positive relationship. She first of all didnt respond. We asked her again - twice. She said it wasnt convenient.

DSS said he didnt really want to speak to her or see her anyway, given the history (as mjinhiding says, not blind or stupid, and why would he?) but we encouraged him again.

He went to see her, allegedly for tea and a chat about how things would work going forward. He came back 3 hours later, crying and distressed. She had spent the entire time telling him what a selfish sh*t he was, and how he had hurt her by leaving, and then basically telling him how she hated both my DH and myself. No dinner offered btw. She ended up crying and hysterical and had her current boyfriend there for "backup" who just said how very angry he was at the son for making his mum so upset. Nice.

When he came home he said, I went because you asked me to and I thought it was the right thing to do, but I dont want to go through that again, and please dont make me.

Scotia, with that kind of experience, I'd be interested to know what you would do. Should we make him go back again?

I think small step, a few pleasant texts but on a regular weekly or two weekly basis - hopefully small steps and just a little at a time may help.

It could be that just a text message every week can try to keep the door open. Though if she sends abusive texts back then I would say leave things for a while and then try again at a later date.

Or if he flet he could phone - even just to say hi I am ok how are you.

keeping some - even a little communication would be good - but it isn't always possible. That doesn't mena that it shoudln't be broached at a later date.

I certainly wouldn't send your step son back again - after what you have explained on here I think that could be very unsettling for the son as it would he may not feel secure anywhere.

I would just stick to using the phone - how long ago is it that he moved out? In the first few week it maybe best to just keep to 5 minutes or less communications.

I would use the post rather than the phone. Could he send some sort of card? It's a PITA but it keeps communication under his control.

Thanks.
Post is a good suggestion mathanxiety, thank you for that. Or email I guess. Like you say, at least that way any communication remains under his control.
Certainly have no intention of sending him back there whilst she is behaving like this.
Once she can show she's behaving in a more positive manner and actually trying to make a foundation for the future, rather than trying to make him feel bad, then he might want to meet her face to face again. Till then though, I think it's best they keep clear of eachother.
We're going on hols soon in any case - thank goodness for the break!

thanks everyone.

i would suggest that when and if he wants to meet with his mum -that they don't meet at her house and instead try a coffee shop where it is busy and then the time is set not for a meal but for a coffee - which is a shorter time. Also hpefully saying just his mum and not the boyfriend (who is there trying to sick up for the mother but causing problems with doing so)

A busy coffee shop your step son is likely to have a chat and go without his mum crying or making a scene in public - well it may work that way?

don't be scared of - there are a lot of step mums here that will gie you some invaluble advice

Thanks ivykaty - good advice. I really like that idea and think he will too - there's a lot to be said for being in a neutral place.

thanks a lot.

Thanks tisonlyme. I am glad to hear of someone else who has gone through with exactly the same kind of application and experience. thanks for the support. And I agree, there have been some very hostile posters on here who have definitely jumped to conclusions - possibly because they have their own issues still unresolved. I guess they simply didnt understand the issue around applying for a joint residence order and what that means in terms of gaining PR as an adjunct to that.

And mjinhiding - the softly softly approach seems to be the best way to go. Unfortunately the exw thinks this is us "withholding" him from her... but we'll get there eventually. I'm grateful to you too for your support and for sharing your own experience.