applying for residence order and parental responsibility for me (stepmum) - mother going nuts!

[ladydeedy]

hello
sigh.. sorry, another post (have only just come across this site in the last few days and cant seem to stay away right now!).
Anyway... DH and I are applying for a residence order for his son who has come to live with us and wants to stay (and we want him to stay too!). All happy there. He is 14 and very clear that he doesnt want to go back and live with his mum.
We are making a joint application so that I would also have parental responsibility. This is because DH often abroad for work and it means that practical stuff for son can be dealt with by me if necessary, e.g. signing school/medical forms, without me having to find the mother and get her to sign.
So we thought it would all be a matter of course but...
the mother now going apopleptic with rage saying she doesnt give a f*ck that he lives with us but that she absolutely wont allow ME to have any "legal rights" over the son and will fight tooth and nail as she "doesnt trust me".
Not quite sure how I feel about that, given that I have been his stepmother for years and we have a great relationship! Also if she is happy for me to care for him, then why the big issue over any parental responsibility?
I guess this means she will contest. I dont have a problem with that personally but think this may cause anxiety to the son who may have to go through interviews etc with cafcass as a result.
In addition I'm thinking... any lawyer would ask questions about why she is so adamant and would advise her to forget about it? She basically chucked him out and took his key off him - I'm not sure her view about parental responsibility would really holds much value in the eyes of the court? (although of course she is still his mother).
any thoughts or advice out there? Anyone else been through this? and if so, my sympathies!!

Fiofio I did laugh when I read that about still being a stepchild years on - yes, I guess one always continues to be one, regardless of actual age!
And yes I think I did explain earlier on this very long thread that the mother had an affair and decided to end the marriage as a result. The father most certainly did not abandon the children. In fact when we got together we made the decision to sell my place (ex kept marital home) and move closer to where they live so that they could spend time together more easily and at weekends with us they could continue to see their friends and grandparents etc.
The comment that the ex is probably "feeling like she did the brunt of the work for some years" is probably exactly how she sees it. She said to me that she had "fed him for 10 years and he has repaid her by leaving". Well, he was always going to leave at some point, even if it were 25!! Parenting is all about preparing your child to leave home and to go out into the world to function happily, consstructively and confidently without you, after having established a foundation of values and behaviours to support that (that's my view anyway).
Blimey, sorry for quite a long sentence there...!

I think trying to attribute fault to whoever ended the marriage is unhelpful and totally irrelevant.

I would honestly back out of it and let your husband deal with it: she is his former wife and he knows her much better than you do (and presumably loved her once). It may well be in the boy's best interests to live with you, for now, but that doesn't mean you can't deal with his mother with compassion and respect. That small thing will benefit the boy far more than any silly PR or formalising residency.

I'm leaving this thread now because you clearly don't want to listen to anyone who is of a different opinion. I think that boy and his father are going to end up resenting your intrusion and drive on this matter.

Sweeedes, the mention of who ended the marriage was because another poster said that the father had "abandoned" the children which is absolutely not the case.
Thanks for your insights onto our situation. Always good to hear of another person's point of view.

yes, but Fio, didn't you know - ALL stepmothers are interfering busybodies who only want ot cause upset to ex's and children. they have absolutely no interest in working out a way forward, they exist purely to stop money, grab contact, and fuck around with everyone's lives.

all fathers, by default, are inferior to mothers. they are always wrong when a marriage/partnership fails. they are also always feckless non-resident parents, who are only interested in causing hurt and upset to their exes and children. they have no interest in seeing their children, and exist purely to hand over money and pay bills. they are not allowed any say in the upbringing of their children, nor are they allowed anythig aproaching normal contact and relatioonship with their children. they will, of course, be blamed for this at the same time (see earlier feckless non-resident parent comment)

honestly, the above is how the majority of the posters on this thread come across.

setting aside the OP's situation, where the father is not in any way to blame - blame is not a helpful thing in marriage breakdown, and it certainly should not be used against whoever is seen to be wrong - especially wrt children.

just because a parent does not make a good spouse, it doesn't mean they do not make a good parent.

giving birth to a child does not mean that everything you think/say/do wrt that child is completely and utterly unassailable.

equally, marrying into a stepfamily does not mean that everything you say or do is wrong, or doen purely to hurt the absent (and I mean absent as in not in your household) parent.

I have been messed around more times than I care to mention by dh's ex. she dared to suggest to the court that I was not fit to look after the children (I am a teacher, ffs, and thus CRB'd. her hints were that I was not a fit person, btw, not that I was not competent as a carer), which held up our case for contact for months while I was investigated. then, in the middle of all this, she suddenly realised she could not be bothered to drive her children to scotland, and casually suggested I should do so. on my own. so fine as a taxi driver, but not as a carer

then there was all the ridiculous business with the schoool, where my dsd was begging me to attend meetings. everyone was happy with this to begin with, I rearranged everything (as you do) to make this happen, cancelled seeing my family (which was important to me as they were visiting form abroad, and this was my only chance to see them) and then, when I arrived at the school I was told that the ex had complained about me, and that I was not allowed to contact the school about anything. in fact, wouldn't be allowed ot take dsd home (she was 13, and waiting for me - VERY embarrassed by this). the ironic thing about this was that dsd usually walked home (to her mum's house) but on this occasion, since a complaint had been made (god only knows what she said to the school) was not allowed to do that either, and had to wait for her (furious) mother to arrive form work - backfired a bit for the ex, that one.

anyway, I am ranting now, sorry

but please, please, can we drop the tired old act of "oh, a stepmother? yes, you must be acting out of spite and insecurity"

sometimes, there are very good reasons for wanting things which upset the other party.

By ladydeedy Wed 21-Jul-10 11:17:19

"I'm not looking for advice from people who have not been in this situation"

Trouble is, if you post on a public forum you don't get to pick who gives you their opinion, only to disregard posts if you want to. People also don't have to 'qualify' themselves to give advice by explaining their own background.

I agree with everyone who says avoiding legal wrangles especially at this point, and trying to reach an amicable agreement as to the logistics of how this is going to work will be much better for your DSS. Regardless of to what extent you may or may not be concerned about the mother's feelings, I genuinely think that unless absolutely necessary, allowing things to settle down a bit and avoiding the courts if possible, would be better for the son.

calalillies (and anyoe else who has said similar)

do you not think that moving to legal action is a last resort?

obvioulsy I do not know the OP at all, but certainly, in our case, it came after years of dh's ex abusing the contact order they had, and wanting (and getting, as otherwise dh did not see the children at all) everything on her terms.

I don't think anyone enters into legal action lightly, whatever the cause.

and, just for the record, it is not a process that only causes stress to one side. everyone involved is put through the wringer, which is why I maintain that it is not done lightly.

sorry, callalilies - my typing is atrocious

I agree, absolutely silverfrog. From my point of view though, from reading the OP's posts, it wasn't clear to me that going to court for PR is absolutely necessary at this point. It may be, I don't know, but it sounds as though it may be possible to at least wait a while until things have settled down.

I think it's important here to remember that parental responsibility is not for the parents' benefit but for the child's benefit. If your stepson would benefit either physically or psychologically, then go for it. As you say, it doesn't remove any rights or responsibilities from his mother. If he is worried that she might remove him, as you say he is, it could well be in his interest. PR and residence orders were first introduced as a more family centred alternative to the old custody arrangements, which is why either can be granted to multiple people without taking it away from anyone who already has it. For example, both divorced parents can hold a residence order, this makes it possible for the child to have the right to stay with either of them, or both alternately. I am a bit bothered by the comments about not needing PR to sign for school things - I know its an outside chance, and I'm not tempting fate, but for example what if you let him go on a school trip, unofficially, and while his father was away and unable to give permission, and he had an accident? Where would you stand then in the eyes of his mother and the law? It would be great in life if we could all do everything unofficially, but life just ain't like that.

Fortunately I have not been in this position. In the end only the people who know everyone involved can make the best decision. On a practical front, schools do not always involve/contact both parents and, to be honest, shouldn't really have to get caught up in disputes between parents. I can understand the mother being upset but do get annoyed when people tell step-parents to back off and leave it to the "real" parents. If you have been looking after children regularly for a number of years, you do care for them and have their best interests in heart. In my experience, you end up looking after them as a couple and I believe if they end up living with you, for whatever reasons, if the best thing is for the father to get PR then the stepmum should too. I know its an extremely sensitive area but in most cases if the kids do spend regular time with you they don't want you to back off. They want people in their lives they like and trust and feel comfortable around. Facilitating this doesn't make us bad people or anti-mothers.

Yes good point discount.
We just want it done and dusted so that stepson feels safe in the knowledge that his mother cant "force" him to return (as she keeps telling him) and remove that anxiety for him.
We have "gone for it" anyway. The only question now is whether my DH's ex is going to make a big issue out of it (as she is saying she will) or not.
She has said she doesnt give a hoot (am being more polite here than she was) about where he lives (although conversely has continued the "forcing to return" conversation), she just doesnt want me to be in any way "involved". Although by the very nature of the fact I've been married to his father for years and the boy has chosen to live with us, I am!

FioFio I did come back and clarify that could be the mum's opinion even if it's completely wrong/innacurate/outright untrue - people do twists things in their minds - or is that just the people I know??????

Sadly I know only a couple of other divorced people who have amicable relationships with their ex, all the other have at least one nutty partner and it seems to be a fair split of nutty women and nutty women tbh!

Ladydeedy I hope it gets resolved quickly.

"Handing over what? She chucked him out of the house and he lives with us now. What is she handing over exactly? DSS is simply gaining an additional "parent", she's not having her parenthood taken away so I dont understand the "fighting against"...

"simply"? Clearly it is not a case of "simply". It is not so for you, and it is not so for the mother. This is why she will fight against it. This is why you will fight for it, despite the fact that at 14 the child will be free to up sticks and leave you and your DH before the whole thing winds its way through the courts.

Contrast the above post with a later post:

"She has said she doesnt give a hoot about where he lives (although conversely has continued the "forcing to return" conversation), she just doesnt want me to be in any way "involved". Although by the very nature of the fact I've been married to his father for years and the boy has chosen to live with us, I am!" The triumphal tone here is sickening, frankly. It's like saying, 'I've won the prize! The boy ('DSS') is now mine! He chose me over "her", and now I'm going to rub her face in it by way of the courts.'

"Anyway, as some of the more rational people out there have said, the court will decide, what is in DSS's best interest based on what they have learnt, when the first hearing takes place in 2 weeks time."
There will be mediation, as others have pointed out, and I suspect your cut and dried attitude, your dismissiveness of the mother's feelings, and your general inability to walk in anyone else's shoes will be duly noted by a well-trained professional.

"I had believed this forum was meant to be a place where people can go for positive and supportive advice and guidance related to parenting issues. How misguided was I!" Apparently you think most people on MN can be run over, tank-wise, as you seem hell bent on doing to the mother of the boy you claim to care so much about. If you think this boy will fall over himself in gratitude for your 'rescuing' him from his madwoman in the attic mother, you're in for a surprise, imo. You've been very aggressive and dismissive towards people who have opposed your views here; that sort of 'tude doesn't go down well in the legal arena. (It doesn't go down well here either, and apparently it hasn't gone down well with the DSS's mother. Hope this has been a learning experience for you.)

Silverfrog- I totally agree with you.

Silverfrog -- spot on. There is no "simple" or "simply" when the family courts get involved in your life. There is only stress and grief. Nobody really 'wins'. That means you too, Ladydeedy.

mathanxiety, the only possible explanation I can see for your "triumphal" comment is the ! that ladydeedy appended to her comment. I don't see it as triumphal. On the contrary, I think ladydeedy has been unfailingly measured and polite in the face of sometimes quite significant (and, I think, misplaced) provocation.

It never ceasese to amaze me the way people will paint their own prejudices over a situation they encounter in this. Ladydeedy has been cast as the wicked stepmother in the flimsiest of evidence. For the record, I am also a stepmother though my DSD's were already adults by the time DH and I got together so I have not had to deal with any of the cr*p that can be par for course for stepmothers of younger kids. I also have the great good fortune to have become the second wife of a man who, along with his ex, conducted their breakup with unfailing amicability.

Ladydeedy, I hope that the outcome, however it is achieved and whatever it turns out to be, is the best for you, your dh, your dss and his mother.

She mentions constantly that the DSs has 'chosen' her and her DH over living at home or anywhere else that might have been available.

I wouldn't call her a 'wicked stepmother', but she does compare herself, frequently, and very favourably with the boy's mother. There are comments on the boy's self-harming ending when he moved in with her and his father (but no mention of seeking help for this, which should be done even though it has seemingly abated, btw), there are comments sprinkled through the posts when posters seemed to be making more negative than positive responses to her about the mother -- first her depression, and the fact that she refuses treatment, then her demeanour when dropping off the DSS (and another son too or did I read it wrong?).

As for the overlay of built in prejudice against stepmothers, it seems to me that stepmums are more likely to see Ladydeedy's pov and agree to exactly the same extent that others are likely to be critical of her. There are motes in everyone's eyes, to some extent.

And again, the court will not decide at the first hearing in two weeks time. The court will most likely refer you to mediation, Ladydeedy, and it will certainly not decide at the first hearing even if mediation is spurned or not requested. And it will hear both sides, not just yours. What it learns is not necessarily what you intend to tell it. Courts do not learn, in any case; they listen to both sides and then decide for themselves. If you think you are going to dictate to a court, call things 'simple', pretend this is no big deal for anyone concerned, and essentially ask why can't this nuisance of a mother just get over herself and go away, you are in for a lesson yourself.

One of the major questions the court will ask is what is the pressing need for it to get involved in the lives of four people, something you have not really been able to answer here without alienating a sizeable number of posters and coming across as hostile to the mother. The court is not your tool and will not appreciate being asked to step in without a very good reason, and in the case of a boy of 14, it may decide there is no pressing need.

MsHighwater - you are doing exactly the same as you are accusing others of doing

It never ceasese to amaze me the way people will paint their own prejudices over a situation they encounter in this

you have married a man who had a positive experian when divorcing - so you are painting your own picture over this situation in the same way...

I think people have experiances and they have knowledge of how it can be - either way this can be good or bad.

I worry when someone diagnosis a mothers medical condition, there is no way a gp would divulge imformation about a patients and whether they had been seen or not and there is not way that the op can put a medical opinion onto this woman unless she is a trained nedica herself and has sat and had a consultation with her. OP does this though

There are good sm and there are bad sm just the same as there are good and bad mums, sm are just as guilty of painting a bad picture of the ex wife at times as mothers are of painting a bad picture of sm

my own dc have had two step mums, the first sm was good she and my dc still have active contact with her - through us making sure the contact is still there as they love her and they love her son their brother, this woman was named in my divorce, but she loves her two dsc just because she is no longer married to there father she hasn't stopped being their sm

the second sm is a different story, sad as it is

ivykaty44, you are, of course, entitled to think that I am assuming that everything in ladydeedy's situation is as (relatively) free of strife as mine has been. I am not, of course, as it's strikingly obvious that ladydeedy's situation is much more troubled and troubling. All I am doing is trying not to fill in the gaps with assumptions that suit my pre-ordained view of how these situations "must" be. I am reserving judgment, not leaping to it.

I think saying "she is depressed" is a perfectly legitimate observation for anyone to make about someone else without there being any need for anyone to take it as an attempt at diagnosis. For all you know, the mother might have described herself thus and disclosed the other information about her medical dealings. Why do you infer a negative meaning to this? There is nothing in what ladydeedy has said to justify that.

I didn't say though that you were assuming - did I? read what I actually wrote - that you are painting your own situation over the op's story - just what you are accusing others of doing.