this is not really a SN thing, but you will all know the implications and ramifications much better...

[silverfrog]

dh and I aren't getting on.

well, it's me really. he is (apart from me being a snappy cow at times ) happy enough. I am not.

dh works long hours. very long hours. and you all know we have moved and moved again because of dd1's school etc.

when we had children, we agreed that I would be a sahm. and that was fine. except then, of course, dd1 has issues, and life is not exactly as we planned it to be (when is it? but ykwim, hopefully)

thing is, it is my life that got changed in all that. yes, dh's expectations and hopes for dd1 went by the wayside (and got exchanged for a new set), but otherwise his life carries on as normal. mine hasn't, and won't. the girls are at school now, so of course I have time in the day, but that is quite restricted when you take into account the 2 separate schools, pick up/drop off times etc. I can't join any of the PTA/form rep stuff at dd2's school, for eg, because of meeting times - am always an hour late.

I am studying, so this is not so much about something for me. I can exercise during the day now. all that is fine. but I can't for eg, get to tutorials for my degree in the evenings. because dh is at work. babysitters don't work that well, as dd1 ends up with sleep issues, and having come out of 3 years of that recently, I have no desire to go back there.

dh's solution is to throw money at it (which luckily we can afford). again, fine up to a point. but I don't just want to be able to go and do things - I want to be able to do them with someone (that someone used to be dh, but am not so sure these days, after years of not really ever seeing him) - not in a joined at the hip way. but even if I go and do stuff myself, he is not there to chat to when I get back. or he is there, but in body only - doing more bloody work.

he does work long hours, and we have a great life (materially speaking) because of that. he loves his work though - a real "carry him out in a box" type. so while it is work, it is also a passion.

so. things have come to a head, and I am thinking about splitting up. there is no marriage left - all we talk about is the girls, we disagree on most other things, and end up snipping and picking at each other.

BUT if we split up, of course, then I still don't get any time to myself, and the girls will see even less of their dad. if I stay, I get the odd evening off a bit more, and could have more if we can get the babysitting/childcare sorted, but would be staying for the convenience, as I am not into the marriage anymore.

but the thought of eg 12 days (dh works away a lot, so while he would have some evenings with them some weeks, it is not guaranteed) of the girls, on my own, with no break, regularly, and no one to talk to (even if that is just a terse conversation, or platitudes about our days) does not exactly fill me with glee.

dh doesn't think we should split up - he thinks it is still workable. well, he would, wouldn't he? he gets to live his life (albeit with a crabby and chaotic wife), and come home to a (messy and disorganised) house and his children. he points out, quite rightly, that splitting up would not solve what I want - ie him to spend more time (and proper focussed time) with us/the girls. that I would be as stressed, and as snowed under as I am now. my argument is that splitting up and doing it alone would at least mean that I knew I was alone, iyswim? not pretending to be in a partnership where half of us is not pulling their (emotional) weight. which would mean a lot to my sanity.

oh bollocks. I don't know what to do.

so, this morning sums it up, really.

dh has, since we spoke last week (when I said I wanted to split) been trying really hard. as have I. we have been a lot nicer to each other, although it has been with a slight "edging nervously around a problem" edge to it . a lot less heat, though.

following our talk with the American guys the other night, dh has said that he is increasingly seeing my pov on the whole thing - that maybe a split is for the best. we will still be going to counselling, and we will see what happens.

today, he is off on a trip. he had to leave mid-morning, so he didn't go into the office. he was out last night, home late (I was still up, as had been trying to catch up wiht an essay). so we chatted about the girls etc, and he said he would do the school run this morning. before I even had time to be , he quickly followed this up with "so what time do you normally leave, as I will get up chuck some clothes on etc, and be ready for then" - not quite 'doing the school run', is it? (it was all a bit complicated, as I had offered to go with in the car - dd2 had a different drop off routine, which he would not have got right through not knowing what/where, and he has not been to dd1's school yet, so again would not have known what to do/where to go, and can hardly rely on dd1 to let him know - she'd direct him to the playground or the kitchens ). but no offer to do the whole morning thing. and no suggesiton of a day off for me from sorting it out.

he did get up early ish, and was around to clean teeth after I had got them dressed. no packing of bags. no doing lunch for dd1 (she takes a hot lunch, so this involves some thought and execution at that time in the morning!). so collecting kit together, or doing home/school books.

lots of disruption (dd1 was a bit on edge, as not normal routine) and faffing about though. and we were late (unsurprisingly).

and that, as I say, sums it up - even when he offers to do somehting, it is after I have put in all the graft and organising to make it possible. he swoops in at the last minute and does the end bit, or the nice bit.

if I had said anythign re: him doing it, he would have said (been there, done that before now) that: he gets up earlier than me all week to go to work, so a later mornign is nice for him (true, but he onlyhas to organise himself, not herd small children around); I am better at doing it all, and since there is a timetable to stick to, then it makes sense for me to do it (yep, but he isn't going to get any better wihtout practice!) etc etc. well worn excuses, really.

:(

I just really don't see how splitting up will make life better for any of you. Not you, your DH or your DDs.

These problems are solvable. DHs are trainable.

You know ABA inside out, you can train him

Wish we all lived closer and could give each other proper real help :(

More big virtual hugs and hankies.

the bit that changes if we split is that I know where I stand. properly.

yes, I could train him (and he me too - the fault is not all one way, and there are many thigns I am sure he would want me to do too). but I shoudl not have to. and I am not sure I want to. if he cannot see the bits that need doing, because I am on my knees with it all, then why am I with him?

I avoid a lot of things - like the discussion over the school run stuff this morning, because it is less hassle to get on and do than it is to re-train his whole way of thinking (him provider, me domestic). what it really boils down to is that he woudl far rather be in a 1950s setup, where I don't have any real say in what happens, as I am 'only' a housewife. he would protest this is not true, and he pays lipservice to equality, but that is it in a nutshell.

he is the one with the more important job, the one with more say, etc. and I am not sure that I want to fight against all that, on top of all the SN issues too.

because his time is short (in part because that is how he wants it to be - he doens't have to be chasing positons on the board etc), he sees my life, with it's flexi-time (to an extent) and time to study etc as lovely. and it is not bad overall (other than the rigidity aspect - the non-choice side of it). as I said earlier, I am largely happy with the day-to-day aspects of it. so, if I take full advantage of it, and study (as I am doing), and go out (as I do occasionally) I get slightly barbed comments abotu how he would like to do that, how I don't understand how hard he works, how appreciative I shoudl be that he provides what he does (despite him agreeing with me being a sahm). if I don't, of course, then I am boring, have little to say/do, shoudl get out more etc.

the problems are mostly about being taken for granted - whether in reality or perceived. and the not concentrating and focussing on stuff - he will not be at dd2's parents evening tonight, as he is away. despite the school calendar having arrived in bloody July, he was completely incapable of leafing through and noting relevant dates (this is not about him not being able to attend - it may well be that he could not have done so anyway, but more about the fact that I had to point it out to him 2 weeks ago, and then go through the rest of the term's dates that he might want to attend to. he knows he is busy. I am not his secretary. he is perfectly capable of plannign ahead, and looking at the calendar. but he doesn't. and then gripes when he misses things, and moans that hew oudl like to attend but he is too busy etc. it is just stifling.)

urgh. have you considered timetabling that break so that he has to?

i'm not in much of a position to offer marital advice this morning - dh lectured me for about an hour and a half last night about why i hadn't properly organised ds1's teacher (?) to help him, and i've really let him down as a result.

we have lots of the fem type conflict tbh, but largely due to circumstance rather than any belief system on his part. but it's gruelling to be trapped living it.

I htink having a break so that he has to is worse, in a way.

I know he is capable of it.

I know he knows it is a lot of work.

was your lecture re: ds1's disorganisation and gap between ability/output etc, madwoman? bloody hell, that's a bit unfair if it was. not like you are doing nothing about it, is it?

supose there was no point in you listing what you have done about it all? (not just now, but over the years) - the research, the paed appts, the totally new subject matter (like dietary stuff) you have had to immerse yourself in?

I sympathise.

it touched a pretty raw nerve as i'd spent from 8 am to 1pm running two kids to paed appts, and had e-mailed the teacher twice that afternoon, including to discuss getting SNAP IV done again at the paed's request. so i bawled for a good hour as, really, it was a tad unfair . no point in putting together a lengthy factual defence, i was just floored. and he does know, really. he did apologise, but tbh i really wasn't receptive. gutted, much.

it just triggered yet another round of 'wtf am i doing'? and questions of value etc etc. and that whilst i totally recognise sahm as an important and valuable choice, whether sn is involved or not, there's always going to be someone around to point out that you aren't doing enough, and to heap more guilt on your head. (i may have vociferously suggested he might like to pop into school himself and inform the new teacher she isn't doing her job... i'm just trying to do it tactfully and set up a working relationship. the woman has been a teacher here for 35 years and has an awesome reputation (including with both of the paeds i spoke to yesterday who say she's really good particularly with sn boys), and we've been in town for 5 minutes. and i have to live here. he sleeps here and spends his days in the city.)

i do admire you for fronting up to it all and trying to find your way through. i'm half looking for a job, but don't want to compromise unless it's worthwhile, so suspect it isn't going to happen in this here small town in the near future (new folks in town and everything seems a bit word of mouth, whatever comes up in the jobs section of the local rag!)

the 'see, i did survive' thing would make me murderous, so i understand why you might want to avoid that scenario...

maybe just try and chill and see what the counselling brings? no decision has to be made overnight.

totally get what you mean re: you having to live there, while dh is more of a passing-through visitor. I have lost count already fo the times I have had to get dh to tone down what he wants to say at either school - absolutely no concept of fostering good relationships...

justa, i think that's lovely. it's pragmatic without losing sight of the emotional dimension.

thanks, justa. what you say makes a lot of sense.

there are good reasons, both for staying and for going. we need to work out what we can both deal with (or not), and what we both ultimately want, in terms of partnership, support etc. whether these things will be compatible only time will tell.

did you point that out, calmly and rationally?

it might be worth holding that thought until the counselling and bringing it up as a no-brainer, 'now that you have found some time to commit to the marriage once a week i would like to you to continue to do this as part of our normal routine' and see if he realises the irony in his behaviour.

i think it will be very easy to see if he views the counselling as a way to continue forward without changing everything (brief appeasement) or whether he is genuinely interested in looking at your relationship and routine to see how you both feel about it.

when is your first session?

I didn't

It isn't worth it (form previous experience) - it's different. One is an emergency (ish) situation, one isn't. one will be regular but for a fixed time, one won't (will be regular, but obv as courses change then tutorial times will; what about business trips? unfair to commit to something as he doesn't want to let me down etc etc)

OR

he would agree, it would get put in diary, and he woudl systematically either have diary failure (blackberry user error), or arrive home just too late for me to go (ie I could go, but would be late - not even contemplatible for me, not a problem for him, so me not going would be put down to me "not wanting to" not him making me late etc) - which is actually worse than it not being possible. Refusing to diary it due to work commitments is one thing. pretending to think it is important and then consistently screwing it up sends a very different message - that whatever I want is not important enough...

and so that is where we are - I don't even bother to discuss issues anymore, because I know where we will end up. and I don't like feeling as thoguh I am the least important member of the household, not worth considering when making plans etc.

i'd still raise all that at the counselling though. he does need to know that you aren't even bothering to raise stuff like that because his word is worthless and you feel your needs and commitments have no value in his eyes (or at best a lesser value than his own needs and commitments)...

i do try to keep the hysterical shrieking to a minimum, but there's a lot of inward detail...

Do you still love him?

oh ,I probably will mention it.

only probably, though - it has all been said before. and I am tired of hearing ti will all be different. the way I feel at the moment, it would take some pretty big changes to even begin to convince me he is serious about changing. and I know that big changes are not really on the cards.

x-posts, maryellen.

I don't know, tbh. I did. a lot. and we have had a whole lot of crap to deal with during our time togehter (not just dd1's SN, but a lifetime's worth of tough times), and we have lost sight of any 'us' that there once was. we are both now very different people, and I don't feel as though I really know him right now.

Yes, I think that's something many of us will identify with.

How much of our frustration/ dissatisfaction is to do with the quality of our relationship per se and how much is down to having a shitload of tough stuff to deal with...ie just being 2 very tired, very stressed human beings with a relentless workload both in and out of the home.

And I think it's harder being the sahp by a long way, because every day can feel like Groundhog Day, and all the while it feels like your own life/ desires/ dreams are slipping away as you sacrifice everything for your family. While the other person, while working very hard too, still has this whole other life and identity to escape to for the majority of the week.

Their life hasn't come to a standstill, they're not completely subsumed by the needs of the children, and it's hard not to be bitter.

Silverfrog - may I just offer a different perspective?

Could it be that your ds feels that someone could be hired to look after the dc in between your rushing for your tutorials and his coming back from work so have not put too much of an effort in coming back. However, only he can go to the counselling sessions if he wants to save the marriage, therefore he is making the time.

Yes, I am sure that is part of it. We have tried childcare. Overall, it doesn't work out. We will keep trying, i am sure. But currently it stresses both girls a lot. Which leads to more stimming from dd1, more non compliant behaviour (which in turn becomes a stim) and dd2 spirals out of control with all her control issues. Which then means I am stressed, dh doesn't cope well with me being stresses by it and gets a bit snappy with the girls, I get snappy with him, etc. Much easier all round if I just don't go to tutorials (just one example, of course)

Being ok to do stuff for us as a couple but not for me alone is not a great indicator of the health of our relationship...

My life is quite similar to your Silverfrog, I often feel frustrated that I have no control over my situation (can't go back to work due to school pick ups at 12 (SN DS) and 3 (NT DD), running ABA prog etc, DH can't commit to getting in early/on time) but I don't blame DH for this, it's not his fault, it's not anyones fault, it just is what it is.

To do the best by DS (and DD) I need to be here for them, and yes, it can at times be isolating, dull, frustrating, and even though DH sometimes throws the "I work harder/am more important/earn the money" posturing I know he knows what I do is important and he respects my opinion and intelligence in making all the decisions re: DC and their lives. He will discuss things but ultimately all that stuff is "my department". We have our roles and know what our responsibilities are - I run the house and do all housework (he cooks at weekends) I do all school stuff and ABA stuff and he earns enough for us to live a comfortable life in a nice house near a great school and to have paid for 2 years of ABA before we got funding. Both these areas are important and neither of us could manage without the other.

He loves me. And I love him. Whilst there may be a rough patch now and again I never have a moment when I can't see us growing old together.

I hope you can get over this and remember why you fell in love and start to feel like a team instead of competitors. I can't imagine how difficult things must be for you for you to have to consider splitting

I hope this post doesn't offend, I was just trying to point out that you don't necessarily have to 'share' all the tasks between you, it's OK for you not to overlap as long as you both respect what the OH does.

(and get a cleaner - wish I could!)

Another voice here. I've been reading and thinking about this since you initially posted.

I have just had two major operations in the last 3 weeks involving intensive care etc. My dh was so there for me. The house might have been a bit of a mess but ds had everything he needed for school, was fed, clean. Dh took time off work both times to be able to visit me and care for ds. He was really worried about me. This is not meant to be a boasting post. We have little money. But what would happen in your family if similar happened to you? Would he step up? If he wouldn't, that would be another red flag to me. Money and material possessions are all well and good but what I need from my dh is him. That is it. Nothing else.

thank you, both. all opinions gratefully received - absolutely nothign in your post that could offend, Fauxfox

the emotional support is somethign that is missing. without rehashing what is very definitely old history now, dh has been seriously lacking in that dept over our time together. he did take time off recently when I had my wisdom teeth out (hardly comaprable to your op, Ben! hope you are recovering well?), and that is a step in the right direction (although that was all complicated by years of not being able to visit the dentist, which of course was because he could never take time off to look after the girls beofr ehtey were in school...)

but that is my argument - yes, the house and the money are all very nice. but what I need/want is more personal involvement. I need dh to be the one I can turn to when I need him - and I am not sure that I can.