Alternative opinions of ABA?

[kpjigsaw]

We are strongly considering starting an ABA programme for our son, and it's been very useful looking at some of the posts on here about it. It seems that a lot if parents have found it to be very valuable which is why we are considering it. I was just wondering whether anyone has had a bad experience of it - I don't mean an individual poor tutor or whatever, I mean does anyone feel it didn't work or was even detrimental? Just trying to get a balanced view as it seems all the negative opinions are held by the 'professionals' rather than people who have actually experienced it.

Any thoughts?

that was not meant to be a pointed remark, but I can see it could be read as so, and apologise for that.

agree that if justa feels the need to have a break then fair enough.

Sorry, that's about as academic as I can manage right now!

But actually, thinking a bit more carefully, the fact that several people have felt very hurt and attacked probably means we should all be more careful of each others' feelings. And perhaps we need to be ready to forgive errors, clarify misunderstandings and apologise if we inadvertantly upset one another.

In fact, considering that we may be more vulnerable than an 'average' parent, and perhaps more prone to bringing unhappy feelings from elsewhere onto a board, we do well not to fall out mroe often. Speaking personally, I am also more blunt than I used to be because of the habit of being clear and literal in most of my daily communications. Plus my posts are afected by whatever hereditary social skills and impulsivity issues I might have 'inherited from' the offspring .

as you can see from my posting before spellchecking, and not responding to the interim posts. (I was looking for an amusing link to show I was entertained by star's comment... but the safesearch came on so I'd better not!)

I strongly suspect that I am suffering from SIWOTI Syndrome ... perhaps it's one of those discussions that can never be resolved. I'd like to think, though, that I'll always be able to listen and learn from people who do things differently than I do. That's something to aim for -- and when I've worked out how to do it, I can try and teach DS1 .

Ok, now that all the misunderstanding have been resolved [emicon for being cheeky], I feel that I can add something that I feel the shortcoming of ABA. We have been using ABA for nearly two and half years now. We did about 10 to 15 hours a week for the first year and half and for the second year, we have been doing 30 to 40 hours five days a week. DS goes to an ABA school now (after regressing severely in a mainstream school) and we do 2 hours a day of social activities after school which includes things like wrestling, judo, dancing etc.

So the huge changes I can list in DS since starting ABA:

-no separation anxiety
-extremely compliant to instructions (he had zero compliance before ABA)
-eats variety of foods (only ate yogurt and juice prior to ABA)
-stimming is down by 80% (used to be very noisy)
-used to be a runner when outside, not bolting any more while out and about.
-receptive language is on par or just below par compare to his peers (although severe delay in respect of wh questions)
-no sensory issues to deal with atm ( DS never had much sensory issues, hated his hands being dirty when baby, but grew out of it), nor sure if it's ABA though, as can't think about anything that bothered him so much.
-can pay attention in a very noisy place, previously he had no attention span
-seeks out interaction with any adult near him as hates being alone. Previously he wanted adults to sit near him whilst he was playing. He did not like anybody joining in his games.
-had no imitation skills, now has superb imitation, so a very good hip hop dancer, best in his class atm

Ds always had very good gross motor skills, so we never had to teach him how to padel for example, he learnt to ride a bike without stabilisers within 5 mins, learnt to swim (float) all by himself, has no fear so very good rollerblader. He is the type who works out how to do something by himself if he wants to learn, so never had to teach him how to use a key as he just wanted to open the door to go outside, or he wanted to wear his Thomas socks, so put on his socks all by himself.

But the thing that has not changed much in DS in the last two and half years since starting ABA is his speech. He has a diagnosis of classic autism although the dx paper said his cognitive skills was not affected. He was talking in sentences by age 4 to communicate his needs and he still does the same. He only talks because he wants something. Although his understanding improved a lot, his expressive language stayed pretty much the same. Now dh and I don't do any therapy by ourselves (we are very lucky to have our insurance pay for the expenses), we pay the professionals to do the therapy ( I put my hand up to admit that I just don't have that parenting skills in me to do what ZZZZZ is doing with her kids). Our providers are very experienced (so it's not about them being not good enough), they kept telling us that ds's verbal stereotypy(spelling?) was so high up until recently that it has not been possible to teach him effectively. Personally, I am not so convinced. Ds has no learning difficulties, he has always been able to learn pretty fast when it's one to one although not in a group. I feel that although DS is learning what to say in that one to one setting, he is not generalising it to other setting. He says things to his ABA therapist as he knows he is expected to say so with the therapist. My personal feeling is that he has become too dependent on the one to one setting which is the shorcoming of ABA to me. Although we are taking him to various social groups so he can generalise his skills, he can only do so with his therapist.

You can all tell me that it's not ABA, it's just my individual provider not recognising his needs, but it's not just one person working him, it's at least 10 therapists ranging from supervisors to nearly qualified supervisor. Like some of you guys, I have not read about ABA in so much details, so I may be completely wrong, but this is how I feel.

sorry justa, x posted.

someoneoutthere I think my answer to your post, predictably perhaps, is not that ABA can't address speach and language, but that no-one has figured out how to apply it in that arena yet.

That might sound a bit cult-ish but I do speak from experience. I attended a conference just recently where pretty much the whole thing was about how to use ABA to address social skills and language and it is clear that it is an emerging area, but it is also clear that a few people are beginning to get excellent results. It really is a challenge for ABA, because 'other people's' behaviours cannot be and should not be shaped when interacting with the child. And peers can be helpful or unhelpful on a whim.

This is where ABA needs to shake it's image. If what the therpist is doing isn't working, they should do something different and measure the outcomes. I can recommend 'camping therapy' myself for improving social skills. Let me know if you want to explain it.

Fair comment someone. Aba is not a cure-all and your experience is similar to my own: my boy has improved incredibly in so many areas, but his speech has stalled. I think he got the speech 'bit' of autism the worst. However, had he continued in TEAcchh schooling, I am fairly sure he wd not have a very long list of any improvements. He wd still, for example, be aggressive. That is why I am lobbying for our special schools to take on board at least some aba principles. It shld not just be the few who get aba, when it is proven to have gd effects. If your kid copes in mainstream, that is fine; if not, I think aba is the better option, but is a hard path to choose (and it shldnt have to be that way).

I don't mind anyone choosing to not do ABA or thinking that it's not the best for their child but as I mentioned earlier, it's not like choosing coca cola or pepsi cola. If your child has to go into LEA special school, no one will ask you at the gate whether you want ABA or TEACCH/PECS as all they offer is usually a watered down version of TEACCH/PECS which is fitted in with all the other non educational activities they provide for the children. Defending ABA against the dominant culture in LEA special schools is tough going as sickof says

Just one more question arising out of your post someoneoutthere. You say that your insurance company pays for ABA, and someone on another thread was just asking whether BUPA would ever agree to fund ABA (as happens in the US). Would you be prepared to give us any more info on what insurance company you use? I know it is tricky, but you could PM me if not. I reckon there is a door yet to be opened in this country on getting ABA financed as "treatment" or "early intervention" for autism under health insurance. In the US, 23 states now offer ABA on health insurance, and the others are losing the battle slowly and will have to start funding ABA soon.

Yes, that would make it impossible for schools not to embrace it. If an insurance company is paying for it and it is working, then what justifaction can there be for the LA funding an alternative.

Gosh I hope someoneoutthere replies, Starlight. In the US they went through a lot of legal angst before ABA was declared to be a bona fide treatment worthy of insurance funding, and no longer just an "experimental treatment". It was even a US election issue!

Autism has to be considered as a health issue, not just a mental health issue. But I am sure there are some lawyers out there who could help one mum win the fight against BUPA for ABA costs, and once one mum has won....And yes, it all helps towards overturning institutional prejudice against ABA as something "wacky" or "weird".

it is an interesting point re: health insurance.

dd1 gets some things covered, as she was covered form birth (and before!) on a total package - was an expat international package at the highest level, so absolutely everything included.

when she started experiencing delays etc, we askd where that left us - as we hadnt ever (at that point) claimed anythign, it was nt possible fo rthe insurance company to put exclusions on, or raise her premiums. (eg I had back problms excluded for a while, as had had prior treatment before siging up)

we haven't ever wanted to rock the boat, so haven't claimed as much as we could, but dd1's autism is fully included. by the time dd2 came along, howeve,r because of a pre-exisitng close family member, we had some clever wording... she is covered ot a standard "up to point of dx" way

health insurance can be a nightmare...

V interesting Silverfrog. I wonderr if expat policies are better, whereas in the UK they are frantically ducking the autism issue. The pre-existing condition one is how they got us - they covered our Daphne Keen diagnosis , but as soon as we had that, he obviously had autism so they designated it a pre-existing condition! So the trick would be not to get the diagnosis on BUPA, but to claim the therapy as soon as the autism appears? V interesting!

Star, what is a 'camping therapy'? I would definitely like to know more if you don't mind. It may not be ABA, it may be like sickof's DS where autism affects DS most, but I just can't help thinking that after all these time, something got to change and this is why this summer holiday I am taking DS to a normal SALT to see if anything changes. The therapists working with DS always changing his programmes according to his improvements or needs, so can't really blame them for stalled speech.

Sickof, I agree with you completely about TAACH(spelling) school. DS went to a mainstream school for 6 months, completely lost all the skills he had including eye contact, towards the end all he did was playing with doors and light switch and this is a very hf boy we are talking about. So we took him out and put him in the ABA school.

the differences between BUPA UK and BUPA international are enormous.

I know we psent a long time going over all the papers and exclusions, and different packages when we came abck to the UK.

I don't know whether BUPA would ever have funded dd1's ABA - we didn't go down that orute. but I know her autism is covered, as we managed to side step the "pre-exisitng condition" thing - probably thorugh some fast talking form dh! (in the insurance industry...)

we cannot, however, ever change insurance companies. we are still with BUPA, and dh's work wanted us to change - we looked at the forms, and talked it through - what we got back was the most enormous list of exclusions (both dh and I had ill health while abroad), and then ASD was excluded - so dh spoke ot his company, and they agreed to us staying with BUPA (they woud otherwise have been paying for pretty much nothing, the list was that long!)

Guys, I am someone out there because I am out of the uk atm. We are on an expat package, but dh works for a uk company and dh's company's insurer is a uk insurance company. Dh's company did the negations for us, as at first they argued autism was not covered, but it is actually covered under miscellenious. the funny twist in our story is that for some legal reasons they can't pay us here in our account, so they reimburse us by paying into our uk account, this makes me think that ABA must be covered, otherwise why would a uk insurance company pay for it and pay in the uk?

Sorry, negotiations

Sick of, do you still want to know the name of the insurance company? If you do, I will pm you.

Yes please someone, this is very interesting!

With reagard to interest in insurance issue, just saw this wrokshop when browsing programme of the big ABA International conference in two weeks in Denver (which I will be attending.)

Workshop #8
Obtaining Insurance Reimbursement for Early Intensive Behavior Intervention for Autism: How We Do It. Medical Necessity Determinations, Billing, and Management of Recovery-Oriented Treatment
BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Eric Larsson, Ph.D.
ERIC V. LARSSON (Lovaas Institute Midwest), KARA L. RIEDESEL (Lovaas Institute Midwest), CHARRYSE M. FOUQUETTE (Lovaas Institute Midwest

I won't be going to the workshop but these people may be useful contacts for some of you and will be easily google-able.

Here are a few more

(This is about 0.05% of the content of the conference.An amazing experience and well worth consideration for anyone interested. I'd estimate the whole thing-5 days of non stop action, accommodation and flights-costs about £1000.

Workshop #1
Improving Organizational Systems
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Heather McGee, Ph.D.
LORI H. DIENER (Performance Blueprints, Inc.), HEATHER M. MCGEE (Western Michigan University)
Add To Schedule

Workshop #2
Developing Social Skills in Learners With Autism Spectrum Disorder: From Assessment to Intervention
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Mary McDonald, Ph.D.
MARY ELLEN MCDONALD (Hofstra University), ERIN SPARACIO (Eden II Programs), JOYANN TRAMUTA (Eden II Programs)
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Workshop #3
Applied Behavior Analysisand Speech Language Pathology: An Integrated Approach to Promoting Language in Learners With Autism
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Joanne Gerenser, Ph.D.
JOANNE GERENSER (Eden II Programs), BONNIE M. FORMAN (Eden II Programs)
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Workshop #4
Programming From the Verbal Behavior-Milestone Assessment and Placement Program: Procedures Derived From a Public School Support System
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Michael Miklos, M.S.
MICHAEL MIKLOS (Pennsylvania Training and Technical Assistance Network), AMIRIS DIPUGLIA (PaTTAN/ PA Verbal Behavior Project), LINDA T. FRANCHOCK (PA Verbal Behavior Project)
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Workshop #5
Augmentative and Alternative Communication: Proloquo2Go and Considerations When Using Technology With Those Diagnosed With Autism
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Rebecca Godfrey, Ph.D.
REBECCA GODFREY (Central East Autism Program), KATELYN FERGUSON (York Behaviour Management Services), MARIO NOTARIANNI (York Behaviour Management Services)
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Workshop #6
Developing the Social Skills of Students With Autism Spectrum Disorder Served in Inclusive Settings
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Robert Putnam, Ph.D.
ROBERT F. PUTNAM (The May Institute), MARISA PETRUCCELLI (May Institute)
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Workshop #7
Building Cooperation and Motivation to Learn
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Anna Matchneva, M.Ed.
ANNA MATCHNEVA (1 Step Ahead Services Inc.), ALEXIA STACK (Private Practice)
Add To Schedule

Workshop #8
Obtaining Insurance Reimbursement for Early Intensive Behavior Intervention for Autism: How We Do It. Medical Necessity Determinations, Billing, and Management of Recovery-Oriented Treatment
BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Eric Larsson, Ph.D.
ERIC V. LARSSON (Lovaas Institute Midwest), KARA L. RIEDESEL (Lovaas Institute Midwest), CHARRYSE M. FOUQUETTE (Lovaas Institute Midwest)
Add To Schedule

Workshop #9
First Three Months of Early Intensive Behavioral Intervention for a Child With Autism: Major Goals and Challenges
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Monika Suchowierska, Ph.D.
MONIKA M. SUCHOWIERSKA (Warsaw School of Social Psychology), LINDA S. HEITZMAN-POWELL (University of Kansas Medical Center)
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Workshop #10
Preparing for Adulthood: Vocational and Life Skills Training for Teenage Students With Autism
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Elizabeth Martineau, Ed.D.
ELIZABETH MARTINEAU (Nashoba Learning Group), CRYSTAL SEAGLE (Nashoba Learning Group), HEATHER M. REGO (Nashoba Learning Group)
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Workshop #11
CANCELLED Refining Teaching Through Technology: Using PowerPoint to Create Highly Individualized Behavior Analytic Teaching Programs for Children With Autism
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Jessica Slaton, M.Ed.
JESSICA SLATON (Nashoba Learning Group)
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Workshop #12
Strategies for Increasing Parent Fidelity of Implementation and Decreasing Child Challenging Behavior During Problematic Routines
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Amanda Little, Ph.D.
AMANDA L. LITTLE (University of Texas at Austin), JENNIFER SHUBERT (University of Texas at Austin), NANETTE L. PERRIN (Early Childhood Autism Program)
Add To Schedule
Workshop #12
Strategies for Increasing Parent Fidelity of Implementation and Decreasing Child Challenging Behavior During Problematic Routines
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Amanda Little, Ph.D.
AMANDA L. LITTLE (University of Texas at Austin), JENNIFER SHUBERT (University of Texas at Austin), NANETTE L. PERRIN (Early Childhood Autism Program)
Add To Schedule

Workshop #13
Motivating Learner Participation Without the Use of Escape Blocking, Forced Physical Prompts, or Nagging
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Robert Schramm, M.A.
ROBERT SCHRAMM (Knospe-ABA)
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Workshop #14
CANCELLED From Diagnosis to Indistinguishable: Developing Individualised Early Intensive Intervention Programmes for Young Learners With Autism
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Kimberly Wroblewski, M.S.
KIMBERLY WROBLEWSKI (CEAT), MARY HOPTON-SMITH (CEAT)
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Workshop #15
Behavioral Activation and the Meaning of Life
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Jonathan Kanter, Ph.D.
JONATHAN W. KANTER (University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee)
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Workshop #16
Running Effective Behavior Analytic Social Skills Groups
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Jennifer Blankenship, M.Ed.
JENNIFER BLANKENSHIP (Advances Learning Center), ELIZABETH PAIGE ADAMS (Advances Learning Center), KATHERINE FRANCES CAREY (Advances Learning Center)
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Workshop #17
Supervision Ethics: Strategic Oversite and Guidance in an Ever-Changing World
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Karen Wagner, Ph.D.
KAREN R. WAGNER (Behavior Services of Brevard, Inc.), MARTA T. FIOL (Behavior Services of Brevard, Inc.), BETHANY DOWDING (Behavior Services of Brevard, Inc.)
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Workshop #18
Special Education Law and the Practicing Behavior Analyst: Legal and Ethical Considerations
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Melissa Olive, Ph.D.
MELISSA L. OLIVE (Walden University), REBECCA RYAN (Law Offices of Rebecca Ryan), PAMELA M. MARTIEN (Developmental Disabilities Resource Center)
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Workshop #19
Academic Assessment Tools for Behavior Analysts: Incorporating Fluency-Based Academic Performance Data Within a Comprehensive Multi-Method Functional Behavioral Assessment
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Michelle Ennis Soreth, Ph.D.
PHILIP L. CONCORS (ABC Consultants, LLC), KAREN M. ZELTMAN (ABC Consultants, LLC), MICHELLE ENNIS SORETH(Rowan University), TARA FREDERICK (ABC Consultants, LLC)
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Workshop #20
Thinking Big, Playing Nice: Implementing a Behavioral Framework District-wide With a Multi-disciplinary Team
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Jody Silva, M.A.
JODY M. SILVA (Washoe County School District), KAYCEE BENNETT (University of Nevada, Reno), ELIZABETH SEXTON (Washoe County School District), JAIME GARDNER (University of Nevada School of Medicine, Child), BENJAMIN N WITTS (University of Nevada, Reno), THOURAYA AL-NASSER (University of Nevada, Reno), ERIKA RYST (Director, Child/Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship, University of Nevada/Reno, School of Medicine)
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Workshop #21
Traveling the Yellow Brick Road From Functional BehaviorAnalysis to Behavior Intervention Plansand Avoiding the Flying Monkeys
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Laura Riffel, Ph.D.
LAURA A. RIFFEL (Behavioral Intervention Program)
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Workshop #22
Precision Teachingand Standard Celeration Charting
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: John Eshleman, Ed.D.
ABIGAIL B. CALKIN (Calkin Consulting Center), JOHN W. ESHLEMAN (The Chicago School of Professional Psychology), MICHAEL FABRIZIO (FEAT of Washington), KERRI L. MILYKO (University of Nevada, Reno), HENRY S. PENNYPACKER (University of Florida), JESUS ROSALES-RUIZ (University of North Texas)
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Workshop #23
Data-Based Process to Improve Outcomes for Children With Autism
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Guy Bruce, Ed.D.
GUY S. BRUCE (Florida Institute of Technology), JORDAN P. BOUDREAU (Florida Institute of Technology)
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Workshop #24
CANCELLED Using Microsoft Excel to Create a Comprehensive Consultant Tracking Template: Creating Consult Notes, Billing, Hour Tracking, Payment Tracking, and Tracking Other Information
BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Paul Heering, M.A.
PAUL W. HEERING (no affiliation), WILLIAM A. FLOOD (May South, Inc), NATASHA HIDEN BURNS (Dog's Best Friend Training & Walking Service)
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Workshop #25
"Why Won't They Listen to Me?" Improving Interactions With Consumers, Treatment Providers, and Other Professionals
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: W. Larry Williams, Ph.D.
WILLIAM C. FOLLETTE (University of Nevada, Reno), JORDAN T. BONOW (University of Nevada, Reno), SABRINA DARROW (University of Nevada, Reno), CLAUDIA DROSSEL (University of Nevada, Reno), W. LARRY WILLIAMS (University of Nevada, Reno)
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Workshop #26
CANCELLED Instructional Design for Students With Special Needs: Identifying Critical and Variable Attributes for Effective Programming
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Jamie Feddock, M.A.
KRISTIN WILKINSON SMITH(Organization for Research and Learning), ELIZABETH GRACE LEFEBRE (Organization for Research and Learning), JAMIE ROSE FEDDOCK (FEAT of Washington), REBECCA PHILLIPS (Organization for Research and Learning)
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Workshop #27
Everything You Wanted to Know About Verbal Behavior but Were Afraid to Ask: What Are the Functional Parts of Verbal Behavior, What Are They Good for, and How Are They Shaped?
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: A. Charles Catania, Ph.D.
A. CHARLES CATANIA (University of Maryland, Baltimore County), CHRISTINE HOFFNER BARTHOLD (University of Delaware)
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Workshop #28
Practical Applications of Relational Frame Theory to Early Intensive Behavior Intervention Programs: Training Generative Verbal Behavior
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Siri Ming, M.A.
IAN T. STEWART (National University of Ireland, Galway), JOHN D. MCELWEE (Pennsylvania VB3), SIRI MORRIS MING (VB3)
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Workshop #29
Successful Inclusion for Students With Autism: Creating a Complete, Effective, ASD Inclusion Program
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Sonja DeBoer, Ph.D.
SONJA R. DEBOER (de Boer Consulting & Training, LLC)
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Workshop #30
Group Learning: How to Systematically Teach Children With Autism to Become Group Learners
PSY/BACB CE Offered. CE Instructor: Jill McGrale Maher, M.Ed.
JILL E. MCGRALE MAHER (Crossroads School for Children), MICHELE D. BROCK (Crossroads School for Children)
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